Jon Favreau Spills His Guts

0:01 [laughter]

0:04 What Okay, wait Ben, before we start filming,

0:05 what is wrong with the red Solo cup?

0:07 I just want to hear you.

0:13 Yeah, I should have gone stadium rules, clear container, my mistake.

0:17 My mistake.

0:18 All right.

0:19 Here we go.

0:20 3 2 You know, it feels like there's

0:22 no shortage of darkness in America right now.

0:24 It can be really hard to, you know,

0:25 look out there and and have hope and and hope in a moment like

0:28 this it kind of sometimes feels like a a luxury or worse like a lie.

0:31 Here's what I'll say that that American history tells us and it

0:34 actually tells us this over and over if we're willing to listen.

0:36 When this country hits that low point,

0:39 the voice that it needs has always arrived.

0:41 Not early, not without suffering, but it has always arrived.

0:44 Abraham Lincoln, he stood in the wreckage of a nation

0:47 that was tearing itself apart and he asked it to hold together.

0:49 And then, almost exactly 150 years later,

0:52 you had a man stepping up to a microphone in the middle

0:54 of just a country that was exhausted by war and fear and cynicism.

0:58 And he reminded us that destiny isn't something that just happens to you.

1:01 It is something that we write.

1:03 That yes, we can.

1:04 Barack Obama, he is the finest writer

1:06 and the greatest orator to ever occupy the Oval Office.

1:09 But the greats also don't do it alone.

1:10 Simon and Garfunkel, I did that one for my dad.

1:12 Jordan had Pippen.

1:13 Obama had Jon Favreau.

1:15 And Favreau was only 27 years old when he became

1:17 the chief speechwriter for the 44th president of the United States.

1:20 the youngest ever hold that role.

1:21 And for years, he sat at the right hand of history

1:23 turning one man's vision into words that the world would carry.

1:26 He'll build one of the most notable voices of a generation.

1:28 So today I sat down with Jon Favreau.

1:30 And we started at the beginning right from the from the moment

1:32 that language first got its hooks in him

1:33 and then all the way through the the White House

1:35 to the creation of Crooked Media and just where we are today.

1:38 Because after everything, even with this the craziness we see out there today,

1:42 he believes in the story that he helped tell.

1:44 Jon, easiest question of this entire podcast, how are you, sir?

1:48 I'm good.

1:48 Well, tired.

1:50 But I'm good.

1:51 Yeah, I was wondering I was wondering before we got started where

1:52 I was in your day cuz I I'm I'm kind of excited.

1:56 This is like you're my last thing and it's I've been

1:58 looking forward to this today and so I get to hop off,

2:01 go straight to dinner, but you have meetings.

2:03 So I feel like I'm in a power position.

2:06 I mean, I don't you know, I also have two young children.

2:09 So there are no free periods.

2:11 There's no relaxing time of day for me.

2:16 [laughter] I'm just I'm going.

2:16 I'm going non-stop.

2:17 Okay, wait, actually that's a man, already derailed.

2:21 So I'm very interested.

2:22 How do you transition from work to personal life?

2:26 Like do you need that 30-minute buffer?

2:28 Is that like a benefit from working in an actual

2:30 office cuz we're at work from home now.

2:32 Have been for a few years,

2:34 but that that 30-minute transition I feel like I'm not a person.

2:37 I will tell you I would like a 30-minute transition.

2:40 I don't get a 30-minute transition.

2:42 My so I live about 10 minutes from the office.

2:46 Sure.

2:46 And sometimes I try when I drive home to just listen to music.

2:51 But I often fail at that as well and just

2:54 listen to other podcasts that I have need to catch up

2:57 on and then I get into the house and what I try

3:00 to do then is put my phone in my office at home.

3:04 Um at least until the boys go to bed.

3:07 And so I just have like a couple hours where I am catching up with my wife,

3:11 catching up with the boys and just not doing politics.

3:15 And you come back to 75 texts and they're like, "Hey,

3:17 just so you know, we thought it was going to happen night time there,

3:20 but we just bombed Iran." Well, it's it's the one good thing about well,

3:26 living on the West Coast, it really does everything slows down at night.

3:30 So that doesn't usually happen to me at night.

3:31 Usually at night is where I can after everyone

3:34 goes to bed prep for shows for the next day,

3:37 catch up on news that I missed, all that kind of stuff.

3:40 It's the morning on the West Coast that's tough,

3:42 which is why I'm always up at like 4:30 5:00 a.m.

3:44 in the morning because, you know,

3:46 then DC has already started its day and it's just like a fire hose of news.

3:51 I and then hit my hit my with right in the morning, which is healthy, I'm sure.

3:55 That's been the best thing about moving to the East

3:56 Coast in the last year and a half.

3:58 I'm just like, oh, okay.

3:59 This is This is how like life operates unless you're a football fan,

4:03 and then you're just like, okay, I can't watch football anymore.

4:05 Right.

4:06 Yeah, yeah, sports is good out here, too.

4:08 But actually, before we fully get into the interview,

4:10 which I really wanted it to be about you,

4:11 I I do want to ask, what are your what are your thoughts on the Texas primary?

4:16 And also, I This is one thing I haven't kept up with.

4:19 I know there were a lot of people that had a lot of skin in the game,

4:21 a lot of opinions, some just kind of staying

4:23 away cuz people were throwing haymakers left and right.

4:26 Were you What do you What do you think about the outcome,

4:28 and were you rooting for anything specifically?

4:30 I'm pretty happy about the outcome.

4:31 I like James Talarico.

4:32 I liked him even before he jumped in the race,

4:37 or at least even before everything got really heated.

4:40 Certainly before Jasmine Crockett jumped into the race,

4:43 too, I had interviewed him.

4:44 He came into the office, and I just think he's I think he's really talented.

4:50 Um, I think that his style, the way he speaks about politics,

4:57 is very valuable to the party right now and to the country, and here's why.

5:02 I kind of think that it's cliche by now,

5:07 a cliche that makes me like roll my eyes whenever someone says like,

5:09 oh, Democrats want Democrats want a fighter.

5:11 They need a fighter.

5:13 And they need a fighter because voters like strength.

5:15 And I think there's a problem in that we have

5:18 not adequately defined what we mean by fighter and fighting.

5:23 And one definition is that you, you know,

5:28 rhetorically kick the out of Donald Trump and Republicans

5:31 every day in a way that gets attention,

5:33 and in a way that, you know, excites or satisfies partisan Democrats like me,

5:40 who are going to vote for Democrats no matter what, okay?

5:42 And then there's [clears throat] fighting the system,

5:45 and fighting sort of wealthy, powerful people who have screwed over

5:52 the people that you are trying to represent.

5:54 And so all of your passion and all of your fight

5:57 is about trying to sort of restore some fairness and balance

6:02 against people who have who you know who have corrupted the system

6:06 and turned people away from politics and made their lives worse.

6:09 And I think that that that Talarico in this race

6:16 has so far done the latter and that's what his message is focused on and I think

6:21 that's I think that's one reason why he won.

6:25 Look, I also think the the heated nature

6:28 of the campaign online is certainly not reflected or was

6:32 not reflected in the electorate that showed up

6:34 to vote and that's born out through focus groups,

6:38 through polling, through reporting on the ground.

6:40 Like most of the Democrats that went

6:41 to the polls like liked both Talarico and Crockett

6:45 a lot and for many of them it was just a tough choice on on who they selected.

6:49 So I just think that the the online craziness per

6:52 usual did not match what was actually happening on the ground.

6:55 And who are you kind of hoping that Talarico is going to be going up against?

6:59 I think Paxton would be easier for sure.

7:01 I don't think I think Cornyn will be harder but I

7:03 don't think you know that's an insurmountable race for Talarico either.

7:08 Look, I think if the so Beto O'Rourke in 2018

7:13 comes within two and a half points of Cruz, it's a very blue environment.

7:18 I think Democrats win the house vote that year by eight points.

7:21 If we have an environment like that again and you have a candidate

7:27 like Paxton or even like Cornyn who has you know has high

7:32 unfavorables and then you have Trump under 50 in Texas and you

7:37 have a really talented candidate which I I we do in James Talarico.

7:41 Like yeah, he's got a he's got a decent shot.

7:44 Not I I wouldn't call it like 60%, 55%,

7:48 but I would say it could in in a in a good environment, yeah, he could do it.

7:52 Yeah, there was a year now is year I that's that's one

7:54 of the hardest things for me looking

7:55 at any historical polling of where things were

7:58 the the last two election cycles and where we are now because obviously

8:02 we can't use these special elections to really figure out what sort of movement,

8:06 but I'm very interested.

8:07 And I I wonder how much of it ties into what happens

8:09 with Iran and then if we get a right right before the elections thing.

8:13 But, thank you for answering that.

8:15 I but like I said, I want a lot of this to be about you.

8:17 That's a lot of me this year.

8:19 But also, how how often do people ask about you?

8:22 You're usually the one I feel like asking

8:23 questions and maybe you offer a little bit

8:25 of your your insight as a as a kind of back and forth thing, but how often?

8:29 Not a lot.

8:30 Yeah?

8:30 [laughter] Okay.

8:32 Okay.

8:32 Which, you know, it's which like it's fine.

8:36 I like asking questions.

8:38 I I I love my role.

8:40 There are some times where and I, you know, wish I could talk more,

8:43 which is why I'm happy to happy to be here and talk with you.

8:47 But yeah, no, I don't I don't get asked

8:49 I don't get asked a lot of questions myself.

8:50 Then let's let's start let's start pretty early on, right?

8:55 So, looking into you, right?

8:57 Your mom's a school teacher, I believe Greek family, your dad's French Canadian,

9:01 your grandfather was a Republican state legislature legislator in New England.

9:06 Very specific situation.

9:08 Very how do those three things or do those three things,

9:12 the teacher, the immigrant background, the the Republican grandfather,

9:16 how does it end up shaping how you

9:17 think about politics or shape you as a person?

9:20 Yeah, we were like a, you know, middle-class family in a suburb of Boston.

9:23 My parents, I would not say that they

9:25 were There was a lot of talk about politics,

9:29 but it was politics as like you talked about the news,

9:32 you talked about the sports, you talked about the weather in New England.

9:35 And so, it was in our family in that sense.

9:39 Um, I can remember because, you know,

9:41 when Michael Dukakis ran for president in '88, I was seven at the time.

9:46 Um, my mother's maiden name is DeMarcos.

9:49 Um, my grandfather is originally from Lowell,

9:52 which is where Michael Dukakis is from in Massachusetts, mill town there.

9:56 And um, so everyone was very excited that a Greek

9:58 was running for president who was from Massachusetts in my family,

10:00 so there was a lot of talk about him.

10:02 Um, and then my father's entire family, my father's one of nine siblings.

10:06 Um, and he at the time growing up was one of the only Democrats in the family,

10:11 a bunch of Republicans.

10:12 They are now we've we've we've converted most

10:14 of them since they were old New England Republicans.

10:17 Um, but at the time whenever I'd go up to New Hampshire,

10:19 there was like a lot of discussion and debate uh, in that family about politics.

10:24 And so I was always I was I grew up around it,

10:26 but it wasn't a it wasn't a passion in terms of like we,

10:32 you know, we want to work so hard to organize and all this kind of stuff.

10:34 Uh, and get involved in politics.

10:37 And that didn't come until um, high school and really college.

10:41 Okay, so even in high school though,

10:43 was there a moment in high school where where

10:45 all of a sudden it it piqued your interest?

10:47 Because I feel like for for myself, it didn't happen until I I was in college.

10:51 Like I I cared about the news, I wanted to talk to people,

10:54 but unlike I guess the environment now where there are kids

10:57 in my my my kids' elementary school that are talking about politics,

11:00 which has blown my mind.

11:01 Like that was loser stuff back then.

11:03 You didn't talk about it.

11:04 It was like they they shamed you away from it.

11:06 They were like, "Just go watch go watch like sports like a normal person." Yeah,

11:09 in high school I was a nerd in like uh,

11:13 I liked American government, I liked history.

11:16 So I was just like drawn to those classes.

11:18 I also ran for student council, I was in student council in high school.

11:23 Um, I was the editor of the newspaper,

11:26 so I was writing like opinion columns in the newspaper, the school newspaper,

11:30 but it was about like local townie It wasn't really about national politics.

11:36 So, I sort of I had the the basis there um early

11:39 in but it wasn't until I went to College of the Holy Cross in Worcester,

11:43 Massachusetts, Jesuit school,

11:45 and very focused on the Jesuit ideals of service and and community.

11:51 And um I was raised Catholic.

11:53 I wasn't particularly religious.

11:55 It's not why I went to Holy Cross,

11:58 but it felt like the the Jesuit education I got,

12:01 particularly um the push to have people serve in the community,

12:04 which I did in Worcester quite a bit.

12:06 That is the first time, as I was doing community service, I was like, "Oh,

12:11 what I'm learning in college is connected to what I'm doing here,

12:14 and politics is sort of the the key that unlocks um potentially,

12:20 you know, real change." Um that would mean you don't have to fix

12:24 problems like one person at a time going out and doing community service,

12:27 but actually pass legislation that would help lots of people all at once.

12:30 I'm very intrigued by I I in general I've

12:34 always been intrigued by how your brain specifically works,

12:36 but has [clears throat] was was there I don't know.

12:40 Let me let me phrase it with this question, right?

12:42 Mhm.

12:42 Uh your mom, right, says that you were reciting

12:45 The The Night Before Christmas from memory at 2 years old, right?

12:48 You also played classical piano seriously at Holy Cross,

12:51 which I think anyone that's that can play piano uh competently, I'm just like,

12:57 "How does your brain work?" Um when did

12:59 you figure out like words and specifically performing them,

13:03 not just writing them, was like the thing for you?

13:07 Because even you talking, Yeah.

13:09 when you say certain things like, "How does that work?

13:11 Here's how." Like I'm like, "Okay, I'm seeing certain building blocks.

13:14 Very interested." It's funny because now uh because I had spent so

13:17 much time I have spent so much time in my life with Obama,

13:21 um a lot of it is from him,

13:23 and I like have picked up some of his mannerisms that I But even before him,

13:27 I think it's one of the reasons I was drawn to him.

13:29 Um Um it goes back as far as I can remember.

13:31 Like I've just always loved books.

13:33 I always loved reading as a kid.

13:35 Um I think probably when I was really young, I was like a bit of a chubby nerd,

13:40 didn't have a ton of friends in elementary school.

13:42 So I think I part of that was like I was drawn to books and reading

13:46 because it was my own thing to do and I could be good at it.

13:49 I wasn't good at sports.

13:51 Um and so that's part of it,

13:54 but I always I mean there's like old my parents will now drag them out.

13:59 There's like old videos of me and a friend in the neighborhood and my brother

14:04 um like doing a a fake news show uh cuz it's called news

14:09 around the house and we would like go to different rooms of the house

14:11 and we would do like now's the news and now's the weather and now's sports.

14:14 And so like even back then I was doing sort of newsy performing,

14:19 you know, politically adjacent things, which is funny.

14:22 Cuz I don't even know where it came from.

14:23 I just it was just an instinct, you know.

14:25 Well, I mean yeah, that okay.

14:25 So but then you get to college, right?

14:27 And you write a a college thesis about it

14:30 makes me realize that maybe maybe our problems aren't new.

14:34 They're just more exaggerated now, but you you write a college thesis

14:37 about white working-class voters leaving the Democratic Party.

14:40 That was that was that was 2002.

14:41 2002.

14:42 2002.

14:44 Uh were you were you what were you seeing then?

14:46 Were you prophetic?

14:47 Like what uh why does it why for so

14:50 many people did it only become obvious later?

14:52 Yeah, at that point,

14:53 let's see in 2000 I mean I I had started

14:56 to I I interned in the Boston State House one summer.

15:00 I um was getting ready.

15:02 I The the thesis I wrote was after

15:04 I uh interned for a semester in Washington, D.C.

15:08 And I interned in John Kerry's office.

15:10 He's from Massachusetts.

15:11 He's my home state senator.

15:12 So I I interned in his office, but I interned in the press office.

15:15 Um and I sat with his speechwriter, communications director,

15:20 political director as they were thinking about

15:22 a potential presidential run for John Kerry.

15:25 So, I kind of like I was bitten by the political bug then.

15:28 Um and um as part of you had to pick a thesis and as as part

15:33 of my thesis and everything I was reading in all my poli sci classes,

15:36 you know, I was sort of enamored with how Bill Clinton won in '92

15:42 after sort of just years and years of Democrats being in the wilderness.

15:47 And you know, I was like reading Stan Greenberg, who was his pollster,

15:51 who's still a pollster now, reading his books and all this stuff was for school.

15:55 And so much of it was, you know,

15:56 Clinton trying to win back the Reagan Democrats who had

16:00 left the party by emphasizing economic populism and all the rest.

16:06 And so, that was that was sort of my my thesis.

16:09 I remember at the time thinking, you know,

16:12 Clinton sort of moderated on a lot of cultural and social issues.

16:17 And even way, way, way back then in 2002,

16:21 some of them even then to me seemed like, "Eh, it's a little too much.

16:24 I feel like the next Democrat who's going to win is should not moderate

16:29 as much as Clinton did cuz I think we're a little bit past that." Also,

16:32 and then of course the war in Iraq starts and that scrambles our politics.

16:36 So, the white working class thesis that I did,

16:39 that was like right before that was before the war really got going.

16:41 And then the next thesis I write in um senior

16:45 year was basically after the 2002 midterms when Democrats got clobbered.

16:52 Um and it was one of the worst losses ever because,

16:55 you know, it's the out party in a year where George W.

16:57 Bush is president usually does well and we just did so

17:01 poorly and it was mainly because of 9/11 and how George W.

17:05 Bush um responded to it.

17:07 Yeah, it it interested me that that was your thesis cuz it does feel like

17:10 then you spent like the next 20

17:11 years trying to hold together this this coalition.

17:13 And then you see all these failures because

17:15 you could become part of obviously or we'll get to to to Obama but I I

17:20 was also interesting interested with the Kerry campaign.

17:23 Right you do you feel like getting started clipping

17:27 talk radio audio has helped you kind of figure

17:30 out this new this new environment we have where

17:32 everything is either an hour long or 30 second clips?

17:36 [snorts] That's that's a good point.

17:37 You know it's funny we never really um never really got

17:40 the it was called the radio actuality program off the ground.

17:44 Which was like you were supposed to like John Kerry was supposed to record

17:47 some things and then we would like pitch them to radio stations in Iowa.

17:51 We're very rural who would just like take a recording I guess

17:53 but it it even then they were like they were rejecting that.

17:56 Um but it what it what doing the clips what we

18:00 call them the clips every morning waking up at 4:00 a.m.

18:03 helped me to do was I read everything before everyone else.

18:07 I read like every single newspaper.

18:09 I read all the news.

18:10 I am still in our company right now where I am

18:14 a co-founder probably the most intense media monitor of anyone in the company.

18:20 [laughter]

18:20 Um maybe that.

18:21 You need that person that's like just cracked out on news.

18:24 Yes that and that was me.

18:25 So I got that start during the Kerry campaign and I liked

18:29 that I was always up on the news and you know that sort

18:34 of in between that and being a speech writer they had graduated me

18:38 to like writing the talking points the daily talking points for the campaign.

18:41 Um not just like not for the not for the senator but for everyone else

18:45 who was out in the field and in Iowa New Hampshire and that helped me figure

18:49 out how to to make things concise and to kind of condense a message uh

18:55 and sort of edit stuff out that wasn't

18:57 important and try to be as succinct as possible.

18:59 Do you feel like it kind of there was kind of a a chaos

19:02 that launched your career there because you start

19:05 out with the clips but then it feels

19:06 like am I correct in that the the campaign was kind of falling apart

19:10 and so that's how you end up being a speech writer all of a sudden like,

19:13 okay, this is my job.

19:14 And do you find that has been a consistent thing of in the chaos,

19:18 that's where growth happens or that was

19:20 that only really is maybe like the the beginning, the spark where that happens?

19:23 It for me, it's it's happened quite a few times.

19:26 And whenever young people ask me, you know,

19:29 who are interested in politics what they should do,

19:31 I always suggest campaigns because campaigns are

19:36 and I haven't been on one in a while,

19:37 so maybe it's different now, but usually they are short-staffed,

19:40 short on cash, and a bit chaotic.

19:43 And so there is not the rigid or the rigid hierarchy that you

19:47 have in so many other organizations where if you don't have the qualifications,

19:52 if you didn't put in the time, if you're too young,

19:54 you can't sort of, you know, climb up the ladder.

19:57 And campaigns, if you show up all the time, you're willing to put in the work,

20:02 and you have the talent, like you'll get the chance to prove yourself.

20:06 And mine was my situation was particularly lucky um because yeah,

20:12 as you as you mentioned uh John Kerry

20:15 who starts off as one of the front-runners um

20:17 suddenly falls to the back of the pack

20:19 when Howard Dean um becomes uh the new front-runner.

20:24 And John Kerry is almost out of money,

20:27 he has to mortgage his house, there's like a mutiny on the campaign,

20:31 the campaign manager is fired, a bunch of other people quit, my boss,

20:34 Robert Gibbs, goes on to be Obama's White House press secretary, quits.

20:37 Basically all of the people I was the press

20:39 assistant to like a whole bunch of people,

20:41 many of whom who quit, many of whom quit.

20:44 And I had been sitting next to Andre Cherny who was uh our speechwriter,

20:49 and I thought his job was very cool, and I and I I loved speechwriting.

20:54 I had wanted to try writing, too, and he kept telling me no,

20:57 I couldn't do it because uh he needed to hire someone with more experience.

21:00 And so I was like, well, if you need a hand I'm here to help,

21:04 even free I in my spare time, I can help you write stuff.

21:07 And then when uh everyone left the campaign and we were really screwed,

21:10 that's when they decided that they would make me

21:13 deputy speechwriter because they didn't have to pay me more.

21:17 I was only making $24,000 a year.

21:20 And so they didn't so they didn't have to pay me

21:22 more and they didn't think the campaign would last that much longer.

21:25 And so I got I got promoted and then You know something?

21:30 You know something?

21:32 If you had told us 1 year ago that we were going to come in third in Iowa,

21:36 we would have given anything for that.

21:38 And you know something?

21:40 You know something?

21:42 Not only are we going to New Hampshire, Tom Harkin,

21:45 we're going to South Carolina and Oklahoma and Arizona AND NORTH

21:49 DAKOTA AND NEW MEXICO AND WE'RE GOING TO CALIFORNIA AND TEXAS

21:53 AND NEW YORK AND WE GO TO SOUTH DAKOTA AND OREGON

21:56 AND WASHINGTON AND MICHIGAN AND THEN WE'RE GOING TO WASHINGTON, D.C.

22:00 TO TAKE BACK THE WHITE HOUSE.

22:04 [screaming] JOHN KERRY WINS THE PRIMARY.

22:05 THERE YOU GO.

22:06 YEAH, I I will say as someone that's talked about it a little bit

22:09 and then a lot more over the the last 8 years as far as politics,

22:13 I've always come at it from just a regular

22:16 schmo guy that's consuming news and like curating it.

22:23 Hey, I'll get you right back to the podcast in a minute,

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23:29 To go back to This is a little bit kind of on chaos,

23:32 but this is maybe more about I'll use the word audacity.

23:35 It was cuz about for audacity for hope.

23:38 In 23, or wait, wait, wait, I know.

23:40 You're 23 back then.

23:42 You're backstage at the 2004 DNC.

23:45 Barack Obama is rehearsing his keynote.

23:48 You walk up to him and you tell him that Kerry needs one of his lines.

23:51 Is this a Is this a question or are you telling Obama?

23:55 And with that, where [laughter] where do you get the audacity?

24:00 Uh because obviously this is a moment that I think changes your life.

24:03 I I did not have the audacity.

24:04 I was basically like ordered to do it.

24:07 Okay.

24:08 And I I for people who know me,

24:11 and I don't know if you can you might not be able to tell on Twitter on the pod,

24:14 but I hate conflict.

24:16 It is like the the the idea that I would have to go tell anyone,

24:20 let alone Barack Obama,

24:22 something uncomfortable that could potentially cause conflict.

24:25 Like it gets me anxious thinking about it now.

24:28 So, um I was Yeah, so I was very junior speech writer on the Kerry campaign,

24:33 which means I didn't go on the road with him.

24:35 I was and they sent me to Boston to be backstage.

24:38 There's a there's a room of speechwriters at every convention,

24:42 I think Republican and Democrat, who sort of help with all the speeches that are

24:45 being given at the convention cuz there's just so many.

24:47 My job there as a representative from the Kerry campaign was to like make sure

24:51 that all the speeches match the message

24:53 of the Kerry campaign and nothing was too crazy.

24:55 So, I was working on a bunch of different people's speeches, just helping out.

24:57 And then I got a call from the road, um the campaign plane,

25:02 uh from the uh head speechwriter at the time,

25:05 who's now Congressman Josh Gottheimer from New Jersey.

25:09 Um and uh Gottheimer said, "Yeah,

25:13 he wants this line from Barack Obama's speech." And he did I was like,

25:18 "He wants the line?" He's like,

25:19 "Yeah, well, he's going to use the line." And I'm like,

25:21 "Did he already have the line?" Cuz I've seen drafts of the speech.

25:23 Like, "Did he already have the line?" He's like, "No, no,

25:25 I think he was pretty I think he was taking the line.

25:29 [laughter] Um so, they asked me So, he asked me he told me I had to go do it.

25:31 So, like I went to where Obama was practicing.

25:34 And the one thing that I thought would save me is Robert Gibbs,

25:38 who'd been my boss in the Kerry campaign, was now working for Obama.

25:41 And Gibbs was there.

25:42 So, I was like, "Well, I'm not going to have to go talk to Obama.

25:43 I can just talk to Gibbs." And I went and told Gibbs the whole thing.

25:47 And he was like, and then Obama heard us talking and was like,

25:50 "What's going on here?" And Gibbs is like, "Go ahead, tell him." [laughter]

25:54 So, that's how I I just sort of Just tossed into it.

25:57 Yeah, I was just tossed into it.

25:59 And I And I told him and he was like, you know,

26:03 walked up to like within an inch of my face and uh was like,

26:05 "Are you telling me I have to take out my favorite line?" And I was just,

26:08 you know, I think I lost consciousness.

26:10 And um And then that's when David Axelrod,

26:13 who I had never met, walked up to me and said,

26:15 "Son, let's let's walk outside and we'll we'll

26:18 rewrite the line together." And uh and we did.

26:20 It was the first first of many, many years of collaboration between Axe and I.

26:25 And then when you watch him speak, do you kind of do you know that night,

26:30 okay, there's something different about this guy,

26:32 there's something different about this moment?

26:34 Or you're like, maybe there's something there and it and it took time.

26:38 No, I knew it for sure.

26:39 And I And I had I had seen the speech.

26:43 Um and I thought the speech was I mean,

26:47 after having seen so many speeches at the convention

26:49 or or read so many speeches at the convention before they were

26:52 delivered and after having spent so much time on John

26:55 Kerry's campaign reading his speeches and helping to write his speeches,

26:59 I was like, "Oh, this is different,

27:00 this speech." But I still didn't know how how it would go until

27:03 I was on the floor the next night and he delivered the speech.

27:07 Now, even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us.

27:12 The spin masters, the negative ad peddlers,

27:15 who embrace the politics of anything goes.

27:19 Well, I say to them tonight,

27:21 there is not a liberal America and a conservative America,

27:25 there is the United States of America.

27:29 There is not a black America and a white

27:32 America and Latino America and Asian America,

27:36 there's the United States of America.

27:42 [cheering] The pundits The pundits like to slice and dice

27:44 our country into red states and blue states.

27:48 Red states for Republicans, blue states for Democrats.

27:51 But I've got news for them, too.

27:52 We worship an awesome God in the blue states and we don't

27:56 like federal agents poking around in our libraries in the red states.

28:02 We coach Little League in the blue states and yes,

28:05 we've got some gay friends in the red states.

28:10 [cheering] There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq

28:12 and there are patriots who supported the war in Iraq.

28:15 We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes,

28:19 all of us defending the United States of America.

28:25 [cheering] And I was just like, "Oh my god.

28:27 Like, this is wild." But I you know,

28:29 then it's it's July of 2004 and sort of goes out

28:34 of my mind because we have the rest of the race to go, we lose um and I mean,

28:41 you were speaking about sort of what happens after a campaign,

28:44 especially among young people and I I was back in Boston, you know,

28:47 and I remember the event at Faneuil Hall and just

28:51 looking around at the new friends I had made

28:53 on the campaign and everyone was just devastated and and then

28:56 I went home and lived with my parents again.

29:01 [laughter]

29:00 And um and then Kerry you know, months later Kerry called me up and was like,

29:06 "I'm the titular head of the party right now and I'm probably going to run

29:10 again for president or at least I'm going to think about it and I really loved

29:14 your speeches and I loved how you were and I want you to come back and work

29:18 for me." And now I I don't know I don't think he knew who I was.

29:24 [laughter] I think I think his um his his very talented,

29:27 wonderful comms director {slash} speech writer uh David Wade who I

29:31 I know very well probably told him this is your best bet.

29:35 Um I like the idea of of a speech

29:37 writer giving someone a speech to hire another speech writer.

29:42 [laughter]

29:42 It's just every and then and then another speech writer gives you your response.

29:46 Yes.

29:47 And I should say years years later, you know, Kerry was like,

29:50 "I should have John Kerry and I are good now." But anyway,

29:53 at the time so he he he you know, offers me this job and I was like thinking

29:58 about it and my parents wanted me to go

30:00 to law school and so I was thinking about

30:02 that and then Gibbs reaches out and he's like, "Obama needs a speech writer.

30:06 Would you be interested?" And I was like,

30:08 "Why does he need a speech writer?" He's like,

30:10 "Well, he doesn't think he does he doesn't think he needs a speech writer.

30:12 He wants to keep writing all the speeches

30:13 himself cuz that's what he's been doing.

30:15 He's wrong.

30:16 He's going to be a senator.

30:17 He's never going to he's never been this busy

30:19 and so why don't you have lunch with him?

30:22 Uh have have breakfast with him and uh and see how it goes." And so and I read

30:26 Dreams from My Father and I finished reading that book

30:29 and I remember telling my parents I was like,

30:33 "I I got to go see see about this like because

30:37 this book is incredible and I can't believe a person who wrote

30:41 a book this honest and interesting is now a US senator and also

30:47 gave that speech and like I got to see where this goes.

30:50 And is that is that meeting is that where

30:52 he asked you about your theory of writing?

30:55 Yes.

30:55 Yeah.

30:56 Okay.

30:56 And I was like I have no I have no Cuz what was it?

30:58 You you told him speeches could broaden the circle of people who who care.

31:02 And so does he hire you on the spot?

31:04 Yeah.

31:04 He he basically said um uh I still don't think I need a speech writer.

31:10 Uh but Gibbs says I do.

31:12 You seem nice enough.

31:13 Let's Let's see how this works.

31:15 What's the worst that could happen?

31:16 Yeah, that's what that was that's what it was.

31:19 Uh and I you know and I packed up all my stuff and I moved back to Washington.

31:23 Yeah.

31:23 Oh wow.

31:23 So just yeah just like that.

31:25 I mean I get it if you're if all

31:26 of a sudden you're like okay this I'm a true believer.

31:28 Why not?

31:29 Why wouldn't you do it?

31:30 And I also thought he's not I'm not going to get cuz at that point I was tired.

31:34 We just done a presidential campaign.

31:35 I was like I don't want to do another presidential campaign.

31:37 But luckily Barack Obama's not going to run for president.

31:39 He just got to the Senate.

31:42 [laughter]

31:42 And so I'll do this for a couple years and then maybe when '08 comes around

31:46 as opposed to like getting in that getting

31:48 involved in that I'll just go to law school.

31:49 Okay.

31:49 So something you actually commented on earlier and it's got me thinking here.

31:53 Uh you said sometimes or I I I think you said something along the lines of like

31:56 sometimes I I was writing for Obama so much it kind of changed how I talk.

32:01 Right?

32:01 Uh you've also been called kind of like uh Obama's mind reader.

32:05 How do you do that?

32:06 And also like and also how do you how do

32:08 you learn to write in someone else's voice like that?

32:11 Are you essentially acting or is it something else?

32:15 I when I started with him um I told Gibbs and I

32:20 told Obama like I need to be around him as much as possible.

32:27 Mhm.

32:27 Get to know him, talk to him.

32:29 And I'm not saying this because I'm like just

32:32 another staffer who wants face time with the boss.

32:35 Like part of it was born of my experience on the Kerry campaign.

32:38 John Kerry had um a very close advisor in Bob Shrum,

32:43 who was like his speech person, who you know,

32:45 was like a He was like a David Axelrod for him

32:47 and would like look over all his speeches and write speeches.

32:49 He wrote like Ted Kennedy's convention speech when he dropped out, you know.

32:53 And so, all the speechwriters would go through Shrum and none of us really

32:57 would ever sit with John Kerry and figure out what was on John Kerry's mind.

33:01 And because of that, John Kerry would sometimes literally

33:04 have four different speeches written by four different people

33:07 in front of him because he would go for outside

33:09 advice cuz he wasn't feeling good about his speech.

33:12 And that's what his speeches sounded like.

33:14 And all the Clinton people who joined the Kerry

33:17 campaign um in the general election would say,

33:20 "Oh, that's sort of what it was like with Bill Clinton, too." Mhm.

33:24 And I was like, "Look, if I had come to think that the only way

33:28 that something as is an odd and intimate relationship speech writing is,

33:32 the only way that works is if the two people really get to know each other.

33:36 And Obama was very amenable to that.

33:38 And so, I sat right outside his office

33:40 in the Senate and would see him all the time.

33:44 I went to every single constituent coffee he did.

33:47 And just listened to the questions he got

33:49 and the way he would answer the questions.

33:51 He was writing Audacity of Hope, his second book,

33:53 as soon as he got to the Senate.

33:55 He would send me chapters of Audacity of Hope and I would edit them.

34:00 Um and but it was also just incredibly valuable to read them and read

34:04 how he thinks and how he edits and all that kind of stuff.

34:06 And so, it was just a It was just trial and error and like

34:09 really getting to know him and how he speaks and and having interesting

34:13 conversations with him about politics and about life that helped me figure out

34:17 how he talks and how Not just how he talks, but how he thinks.

34:20 Who's the better writer?

34:22 He's the better writer.

34:24 For sure.

34:25 So, [snorts] then writing for someone who's a better writer than you,

34:28 what's the what's the ego experience of that?

34:30 Is there one?

34:32 There's not.

34:32 It's a It's It's weird because I always

34:35 saw it as an incredible gift that um Like

34:40 there's this when I would send a speech

34:43 um there's two ways the speech would come back.

34:46 If the speech came back with like no edits on it

34:49 um or very few edits uh I would be like, "Okay, whatever.

34:54 I don't even think he cares about it this much."

34:56 And that that would happen with like smaller remarks.

34:59 Sometimes a speech would come back with like, "See me.

35:01 We're not there yet." And then I would get

35:02 very like nervous and that's when you you're like,

35:05 "Oh, I this up." Or this is not good.

35:07 And then then I'd sit with them and he'd come

35:08 up with ideas and we would just talk it through.

35:10 But then a lot of times the speech would come back and it

35:13 would just be like so marked up um and and he would have

35:17 like uh extra yellow uh note pages like big a big yellow notepad

35:23 and he'd have like pages and pages just written and he'd be like,

35:26 "Well, I like what you did here.

35:27 I like the end.

35:28 I like this part, but I just wrote this part

35:30 uh myself and I don't exactly know where it goes,

35:33 but it's like an interesting and that to me

35:36 was the best scenario because what he wrote

35:40 would always be the kind of thing that you

35:43 just have not heard from any other politician.

35:46 That is a new idea, a new way of saying something.

35:49 So interesting, so fresh and then it would be my job to figure out because

35:55 he he's a writer before he is a speaker even though people wouldn't think that.

35:59 And so my job would be to figure out, "Okay,

36:01 how to condense this 11 extra pages he gave me into what should be like a three

36:08 or four page speech without losing what makes

36:11 it special um and then and and you know,

36:14 sanding it down so much that it's just another you know,

36:17 Democratic politician speech that anyone could deliver.

36:20 And I loved that challenge.

36:21 And I and I learned from it.

36:22 And so like I learned my writing improved because of him.

36:27 And regarding speeches, if we if we talk about a specific one,

36:30 well, you know, let's say a more perfect union, right?

36:33 Philadelphia, March 2008.

36:36 A lot of people consider it the the best

36:37 political speech in maybe like the last 30 years.

36:40 We the people in order to form a more perfect union.

36:47 221 years ago in a hall that still stands across the street a group

36:53 of men gathered and with these simple

36:55 words launched America's improbable experiment in democracy.

37:01 Farmers and scholars statesmen and patriots who had

37:05 traveled across the ocean to escape tyranny and persecution

37:09 finally made real their declaration of independence at a Philadelphia

37:15 convention that lasted through the spring of 1787.

37:20 The document they produced was eventually signed but ultimately unfinished.

37:27 It was stained by this nation's original sin of slavery.

37:32 A question that divided the colonies and brought the convention

37:36 to a stalemate until the founders chose to allow

37:40 the slave trade to continue for at least 20 more

37:44 years and to leave any final resolution to future generations.

37:50 Of course, the answer to the slavery

37:53 question was already embedded within our Constitution.

37:58 A Constitution that had at its very core

38:01 the ideal of equal citizenship under the law.

38:05 A Constitution that promised its people liberty and justice

38:10 and a union that could be and should be perfected over time.

38:17 And yet words on a parchment would not be

38:20 enough to deliver the slaves from bondage or provide

38:24 men and women of every color and creed their full

38:26 rights and obligations as citizens of the United States.

38:31 That what would be needed were

38:33 Americans in successive generations who were willing

38:35 to do their part through protests and struggles on the streets and in the courts

38:41 through a civil war and civil disobedience and always a great risk to narrow

38:47 that gap between the promise of our ideals and the reality of their time.

38:53 What was the process of of writing that?

38:55 How much was you?

38:56 How much was him there?

38:58 Oh man, that was quite a process.

39:00 Yeah.

39:00 They um the Reverend Wright uh the tapes come out,

39:04 the the controversy erupts uh I believe on a Thursday or a Friday.

39:09 The government GIVES THEM THE DRUGS, BUILDS BIGGER PRISONS,

39:13 PASSES A THREE-STRIKE LAW, AND THEN WANTS US TO SING GOD BLESS AMERICA?

39:18 NO, NO, NO.

39:19 NOT GOD BLESS AMERICA.

39:21 GOD DAMN AMERICA THAT'S IN THE BIBLE FOR KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE.

39:26 GOD DAMN AMERICA FOR TREATING OUR CITIZENS AS LESS THAN HUMAN.

39:31 GOD DAMN AMERICA AS LONG AS SHE TRIES TRIES

39:35 TO ACT LIKE SHE IS GOD AND SHE IS SUPREME.

39:39 And they the campaign originally decides he's going

39:43 to you know do a round of cable TV interviews.

39:47 Those don't work.

39:49 Um and doesn't do do anything to get the controversy to go away.

39:53 And Saturday morning I wake up and I there's a senior staff call,

39:59 I get on the call and Axelrod's like,

40:02 "All right, guys, he wants to give a speech." Like,

40:06 "What?" He's like, "He wants to give a speech about race." "Okay." I was like,

40:10 "All right, well, so when can I meet with him?

40:12 And like, is it going to be like, you know, a week from today?" Whatever.

40:15 He's like, "He wants to give it to Tuesday." And I say,

40:19 "You want to give it Tuesday?

40:21 Like, what what what?

40:22 Like, when am I What this That's a big speech.

40:25 When am I And he's like, like, "Well, can I meet with them now?

40:27 Can I talk to him now?" He's like, "He's campaigning all day.

40:29 He can't talk to you till tonight." So, at like 10:30 at night,

40:34 um I talked to Obama on Saturday, and he was like,

40:39 "I'm just going to give you stream of consciousness off the top of my head

40:42 what I'm thinking." He's such a lawyer though that even off the top of his head,

40:48 it was like, "All right,

40:49 first I want to say this, and then it's going to be 1A, 1B,

40:53 two is going to be this, 2A, 2B." And he had like an outline.

40:57 And then he talked through He and I talked through like a story

41:01 to end it with, and we settled on the story that we used,

41:04 just kind of talking through it,

41:05 and then I hung up with him at like almost midnight,

41:08 and he's like, "All right, um I will need a draft of this by uh tomorrow night,

41:15 Sunday night, uh right after I put the girls to bed." Cuz he was in Chicago.

41:18 It was um St.

41:19 Patrick's Day weekend.

41:20 And so I uh immediately uh I was too freaked out to start writing,

41:25 and I was like, "I do need some sleep." Um but it was also St.

41:28 Patrick's Day, so I I I went and had

41:30 a beer with people on the campaign who were out,

41:33 came back home, and then I woke up at like 5:00 a.m.

41:37 And I went to the Starbucks near our house in Chicago, in Lincoln Park,

41:42 and um I just wrote wrote wrote wrote wrote all day, sent it to him.

41:48 He sent me something back Monday morning with just so many track changes.

41:53 Just The track changes were in blue.

41:56 And it was just like pages and pages of blue.

41:58 And then I incorporated them, I wrote more,

42:01 he did another round of track changes, and then on Tuesday morning,

42:05 like at 4:00 in the morning, he sent the speech to me,

42:07 Axelrod, Plouffe, Gibbs, and Valerie Jarrett, and he said, "This is the speech.

42:14 No one can touch it." Uh he's like,

42:16 "Fabs can touch it in terms of edits, like light edits, rhythms, word stuff.

42:21 I don't want any more substance.

42:22 I don't want anyone freaking out about the politics.

42:24 This is it.

42:24 This is what I want to say." And if I can ask there,

42:27 how how hard was it for you at the time to to maybe

42:31 write about race as a white guy knowing that, you know,

42:34 your boss might tell you, "No, you got it wrong." Yeah.

42:37 Well, part of what I did it with the parts of that speech that are me,

42:42 lot of the historical stuff in it,

42:43 like the like things about race that you can know and learn

42:48 if you read a lot about race, which I had, right?

42:51 Like I had a, you know, I sociology major,

42:54 political science major at a liberal arts school,

42:57 like I had I read it all, right?

42:59 Um but when you got to the personal stuff,

43:02 I had to basically put in placeholders for him, you know,

43:05 like I it especially in a situation

43:08 that the sensitivity wasn't just around race,

43:10 it was around his own personal relationships with a pastor

43:13 who had like baptized his children, you know?

43:16 Um and so that was very that was very tricky [laughter]

43:20 to to deal with, but so much of speechwriting

43:23 is about um honing the skill of empathy.

43:27 And you are constantly trying to put yourself

43:30 in the shoes of people whose lives are not like yours,

43:34 whose identities are not like yours, whose backgrounds are not like yours,

43:37 and trying to figure out, at least in politics,

43:40 what is the common thread that binds us even though we are so different?

43:45 Even though um we've had such different experiences in life,

43:49 even though I can't know what Barack Obama's life was like,

43:53 even though I can't know what um someone,

43:56 uh you know, a black person's life uh is like,

43:59 or a Latino's person's life is like,

44:01 or a gay person's like, I can't know all these things.

44:04 All I can do is try to put myself in their shoes

44:06 and try to um tell a story that everyone can see themselves in.

44:12 So, that actually Okay,

44:13 so that makes me then think of the Sandy Hook speech, right?

44:16 Obama said it was the the hardest thing he ever had to do.

44:19 I know there's not a parent in America who

44:23 doesn't feel the same overwhelming grief that I do.

44:28 The majority of those who died today were children.

44:32 Uh beautiful little kids between the ages of 5 and 10 years old.

44:48 They had their entire lives ahead of them.

44:51 Birthdays, graduations, weddings, kids of their own.

44:58 Um I guess for you, what do you What do you do when language in that situation

45:02 has to to carry something that it feels

45:04 like language itself by itself can't actually carry?

45:08 Looking back on that and and Cody Keenan who took

45:10 over for me was really the lead writer of that speech.

45:13 Not being a parent in that moment Mhm.

45:18 actually gave me some detachment from the emotion in a way.

45:24 Like it was horrific and tragic, but I remember when um Aurora,

45:28 the shooting in Aurora happened in Colorado, I was with the president.

45:32 Um I I was with Obama right before he went out on stage.

45:35 So, I had to I wrote a statement around that.

45:37 And he was about to go on stage and give the speech.

45:41 This is before Sandy Hook and he remember he

45:43 stopped and he was like he looked pretty upset

45:46 and I'm a kid who's very busy in the White

45:48 House writing speeches and I thought it was a tragedy,

45:50 but we deal with tragedies all the time, you know.

45:52 And um he said to me before he went on, he was like um you're not a parent yet.

45:59 He's like, but when you are someday,

46:02 you will realize that being a parent is like

46:06 walking around with your heart outside of your chest.

46:09 And, um which ended up later in the Sandy Hook speech.

46:14 And, at the time, I I thought it was a like a a beautiful

46:18 way to say that, a compelling way

46:20 to say that, but I thought that intellectually.

46:22 Um and now that I have kids, I think back on him telling me that, and I

46:26 always it like chokes me up just thinking about it.

46:29 I was I was going to ask you if I mean, I don't know.

46:32 I feel like we create so much that we never watch our own things,

46:35 but for something like that, as a parent, have you ever gone back?

46:39 Uh No, I haven't, actually.

46:41 It's hard I mean, I imagine.

46:43 You know, as a as a Yeah,

46:44 as a parent now, it's like it's just so different, right?

46:48 Because, you know, my my eldest is in school,

46:51 and the youngest is going to start school,

46:53 and you just start thinking about the world as it is right now,

46:57 and if you get too in your head about it, um you know, it's hard to keep going.

47:03 And, so you just all you got to do is

47:04 put your head down and enjoy the moments with them,

47:07 and then do the work that I'm doing, at least in my case.

47:11 Uh one of the last things I want to ask you regarding speeches is,

47:14 for you personally, so whether the the public thought it worked or not,

47:17 that doesn't matter.

47:18 Is there a speech from those years that you think that was a failure?

47:23 Oh, interesting.

47:24 Yeah, the you The easiest one to pick is the um the oil spill speech.

47:31 Okay.

47:31 Wait, why why's that?

47:32 So, you remember the Deepwater Horizon oil spill?

47:35 It was like 2010.

47:37 And, uh everyone was mad at Barack Obama because, uh we couldn't plug the well.

47:45 And, uh all the cable channels had, on the bottom of the screen,

47:49 24 hours a day, the well just spewing oil into the Gulf.

47:54 And, you couldn't do anything about it.

47:56 And, every time there was an incident or or a crisis in the Obama White House,

48:03 someone inevitably would say,

48:05 "He's got to give a big speech." Because he is the speech guy, right?

48:09 And there was a like sort of a gallows

48:12 humor joke that we would make where we'd say cuz

48:15 people would actually say this, not as much as we

48:17 would make fun of it for, but they would say,

48:18 "You need a race speech for X." Because of the because

48:21 of the race speech that we just talked about.

48:22 Mhm.

48:23 And because that worked so well.

48:24 And it is this It drove the speech writers crazy.

48:27 It drove Obama crazy.

48:28 Use your magic wand, John.

48:29 It is yes, it and it's of course what

48:31 drove the public crazy at times about Obama, right?

48:34 Which is like this man is the hope guy and he's supposed to fix

48:40 everything and he should be able to have the right words to fix everything.

48:44 And I remember and so someone was like inevitably he should

48:46 give an Oval Office address addressing the oil spill and I'm like,

48:49 "Okay, have we fixed the oil spill?

48:51 Do we know how to fix the oil spill?" No.

48:53 Well, then what's the speech going to be about?

48:53 Well, some of it's going to be about climate

48:55 change and the bigger issues and I was like, "Oh,

48:57 this is not going to work." And soon

48:59 nearly a mile beneath the surface of the ocean,

49:01 oil began spewing into the water.

49:05 Because there's never been a leak this size at this depth.

49:10 Stopping it has tested the limits of human technology.

49:14 That's why just after the rig sank, I assembled a team of our nation's

49:17 best scientists and engineers to tackle this challenge.

49:21 Sure enough, it was a weird speech.

49:23 It didn't help at all.

49:27 [laughter] And um but it was it was it's something I always

49:29 think about cuz I'm like sometimes a speech can't fix the problem.

49:32 What fixes the problem is someone going in there and fixing the well.

49:39 We'll get you back to the pod in just a minute,

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50:41 I want to get past the the the the writing.

50:44 I want to I want to thank of after the Obama White House.

50:47 Let's So you leave the White House at I think you were 31 around the time.

50:51 Is that right?

50:52 Yeah, I think that's right.

50:53 2013.

50:53 Well, yeah, whenever it was.

50:54 And so you say you you left more hopeful,

50:57 but you then also immediately start a consulting firm,

50:59 you're exploring Hollywood.

51:02 Uh do you feel like you were running towards anything,

51:04 running away from anything?

51:05 I felt like um I was burnt out in terms of uh

51:09 writing for I was burnt out of politics and writing for him.

51:12 And if I had left before the 2012 reelect, I would have felt guilty.

51:16 He wins the re-election, and I'm like, okay, this is Mhm.

51:20 I did it, and I've been with him for eight years.

51:23 It's a long time.

51:24 I had just met my now wife,

51:26 and I have not had a normal relationship uh ever at this point.

51:31 And so, or at least like a real long-term serious serious relationship.

51:35 And so, as like if I I I got to start my life,

51:38 and I can't stay in the White House and do this, and I do love writing,

51:43 and maybe I can write television or movies,

51:47 and it can you know it can be impactful in that way you know cuz they could

51:51 have sort of political themes whether explicit or implicit

51:55 and Tommy Vietor my co-host and co-founder he

52:00 was on board with that too so Tommy

52:01 and I were like all right we're going to write

52:02 a pilot television show and then I was

52:05 like and in the meantime we're going to start

52:06 this company and we're going to you know

52:08 do speech writing and Tommy can do some crisis

52:11 comms and Tommy's a great writer too so

52:13 he'll do writing and we'll just that that'll be

52:16 our firm it'll just be the two of us maybe one or one or two other people

52:19 and we'll get by and then someone will buy

52:20 our script and then that'll be the end of it.

52:23 And so okay when when you go from writing for the most powerful

52:26 person on Earth to building this this media company from a kitchen table right

52:31 the whole Crooked Media ecosystem is there

52:34 something that you learned along the way of like building something from scratch

52:39 that the the White House never taught you?

52:41 Yeah.

52:42 I mean the White House didn't teach me anything about [laughter]

52:45 like building a business starting a business hiring people like

52:49 having managing employees now Is it a different kind of chaos?

52:54 It is a different kind of chaos it is

52:57 also a skill I just didn't have you know Tommy

53:01 and I because we had started the consulting firm

53:03 and ended up with three or four employees we had

53:06 some experience with business so we like it that you

53:08 know Fenway which was our consulting firm that helped

53:11 us a little bit but it was really just starting

53:14 from scratch and we you know thankfully hired a COO

53:19 who was brilliant and helped build the company from scratch

53:23 and a and a chief content officer who the two

53:26 of them together Sarah and Tanya just like built

53:29 this company from nothing and but yeah those those first

53:33 years because you're thinking about politics you're hosting you're

53:36 recording but then in the other time you're thinking about

53:39 employees business office space taxes all the other that you

53:44 have to think about when you're running a business.

53:46 It's really hard.

53:47 And also, I mean, something that was new for you, too, right?

53:49 So, you said after Obama,

53:50 we'll see how long it takes for me to find my voice again.

53:53 Mhm.

53:53 It's been over a decade.

53:55 Have you?

53:56 Yeah, now I have.

53:57 How long did it take?

53:58 A couple of years cuz I would write um I think when I was in '13 and '14,

54:03 when I was doing Fenway, I would also like I had a col- I would write a column

54:06 for the Daily Beast once in a while and a couple other places and then

54:10 the Ringer and um and I rem- I look back now at some

54:14 of those and they the the first one sounded just so much like Obama.

54:17 It's just like a I'm still an Obama

54:19 speechwriter just just writing exactly like he talks.

54:23 And I think that podcasting helped me find my voice more than if I just kept

54:28 writing because the writing I would sort of naturally

54:31 go back to sort of the Obama ticks.

54:35 Um What are What are the Obama ticks?

54:37 Is it just certain sentence length, pauses?

54:39 How does that work?

54:40 It's sentence length, it's words he uses, it's the let me be clears,

54:44 it's you know, the it's just very a lot of semicolons.

54:49 He does The guy is not a fan of a period.

54:51 He doesn't like It's like a period.

54:53 Um and it's just the way that speeches are written, right?

54:56 Like there is sort of an an edifice around

54:58 political speeches that even Barack Obama, who you know,

55:01 I I'd say is different than a lot of other politicians,

55:03 still fell into sort of the general

55:05 edifice of what a political speech sounds like.

55:08 Getting out of that um took some time.

55:11 And then at some point though, I mean, I don't I don't do a lot of writing now,

55:14 but when I do I try much harder to write like I speak um on the pod,

55:20 which is more conversationally.

55:23 Um and that I think was the the lesson that podcasting helped me learn.

55:27 I'm hoping to I'm hoping to learn that as well cuz

55:29 I've had 20 years of people are like think that I have

55:32 two different voices because on my main show uh I talk

55:35 a mile a minute like I'm uh messed out of my mind,

55:37 and then this is This is just how I speak, so I don't know.

55:41 Uh maybe I'll find it.

55:42 Um something that I am interested though is,

55:44 especially as, you know, you go from something that's behind the scenes,

55:49 you're you're front-facing,

55:50 and this kind of is about Pod early on, but also now.

55:54 You guys kind of get hit from the the left for being too establishment

55:58 in people's eyes and from the right

55:59 for being uh like partisan advocacy in their eyes.

56:03 How do you sit with I guess taken taken hits from from all sides?

56:08 Is it just part of the game to you?

56:10 Yeah, just I'd like to know your thoughts.

56:11 I think it bothered me a lot in uh when we first started.

56:16 I think when uh there'd be a a Twitter fight or criticism,

56:20 especially from the left.

56:21 Um or not from the left, but like within the Democratic Party,

56:25 whether it was from the center-left or the left.

56:27 It would really bother me personally in like, I'd say, '17, '18.

56:33 And I don't know if it's just because I've been doing it

56:36 this long or I have grown as a person, thanks to therapy.

56:40 I don't know what it is, but or or maybe I'm just numb at this point.

56:44 But now, um it only like the when I respond or when it bugs me,

56:50 and people probably won't believe this, but it's but it's true.

56:53 Um I only get annoyed in terms of like

56:57 I'm always thinking about uh persuading other people.

57:00 And so, if there's an argument about there if

57:02 there's an argument out there and it includes me,

57:04 but it's an argument about something bigger I will hit back because I want

57:09 to engage in the argument because I want other people to believe what I believe.

57:13 When I get personal insults now I don't care.

57:16 Sure.

57:17 Because I'm like, there's What am I going to I'm not winning this fight,

57:20 and I can throw a personal insult back,

57:23 and sometimes if it's like a right-wing person, I will, just for fun,

57:26 but that's not It's not a good use of my time.

57:29 Sure.

57:30 But if someone is criticizing me or the show

57:33 or anything else for a position we've

57:35 taken or a candidate that I believe in, then I will try to make my case,

57:40 but I won't get as um I won't get as angry

57:44 or as personally upset or offended as I did like, you know, 7 or 8 years ago.

57:49 It was something that popped into my mind because I

57:51 saw several different reactions to you recently talking with Platner.

57:58 Yeah.

57:58 Right?

57:59 So, it was like there were some there were some people that were like,

58:01 "Can't believe this they they platformed this guy." And then "Oh,

58:04 I love that they platformed this guy." And then there was the the clip

58:08 around that that was making the rounds of talking about the the bailout.

58:12 And that even that was wild like seeing that

58:15 didn't even I figured that would go around.

58:16 I didn't I didn't know that that's been going around,

58:17 but I It's probably healthy that you're not not like searching yourself.

58:21 But uh it's And then there's like people that are like, "Oh,

58:23 this is like a really thoughtful interesting

58:25 conversation." And then there's other uh you know,

58:28 you always see the different captions on the same

58:29 video clip that can be drastically different.

58:31 And then another one's like, "Platner destroy Favreau." And I'm like,

58:35 "How are there [laughter] all these different

58:37 takes?" It was so it was so interesting.

58:39 And so that I just I was like I want I had to ask.

58:41 Do you But do you in your day-to-day life,

58:43 do you just do you not look at social stuff outside of maybe like if

58:48 a friend sends you something cuz there's just

58:50 too much to consume or are you in there?

58:51 Are you in the trenches?

58:53 Um I'm not in the trenches as much as I used to be.

58:56 Uh my friends and um colleagues here might disagree, but [laughter]

59:01 but I I'm not.

59:02 Um it What's What's interesting is how I

59:05 prepare for a conversation like that and how

59:08 that has changed and how that and how the outside noise could impact that.

59:12 So, for example, with Platner, I'm like, "Okay,

59:15 he's coming in." Tommy interviewed him uh in October.

59:20 That's when the the the Nazi tattoo was revealed.

59:24 And you know, and and look,

59:26 I think Tommy also brought Tommy called like the other

59:30 campaign like his his his potential opponents to like

59:32 basically get their opposition research on Platner and asked

59:36 him about all the Reddit posts and everything else.

59:38 So, and then everyone was like, "Oh,

59:39 it was an easy interview on Pod Save America." Whatever else.

59:41 Fine.

59:42 So, then Platner comes in and I'm like, "Okay,

59:44 I have a couple of things to think about.

59:46 Do I need to Obviously, I'm going to ask him about the tattoo again.

59:50 But, like why am I going to keep pressing on the tattoo issue?

59:55 And keep going and follow up follow up when I personally have all the answers,

59:59 when I have seen and heard all

1:00:01 of the answers he's given in other interviews about it.

1:00:04 So, am I just doing this to protect myself from criticism online?

1:00:10 Cuz if so, why am I doing that?

1:00:13 Who the cares?

1:00:14 Like that's a waste of the audience's time because that's covering my ass.

1:00:18 Mhm.

1:00:18 And it's like, I know what the answers is that he's given.

1:00:21 I personally believe them.

1:00:23 And so, I should try to ask him about

1:00:26 other stuff while I have him here for an hour.

1:00:29 And then, the other thing I thought about is I

1:00:30 got cuz I had heard him talk about he was I

1:00:33 doing a podcast with David Remnick couple months ago and he

1:00:35 talked about Obama and the bankers and stuff like that.

1:00:38 And I was like, "Oh,

1:00:39 this would be a fascinating conversation to have with him." It was like,

1:00:41 "And I fully realized before I had it that it was like,

1:00:44 if I do this, I will come off as the neolib

1:00:46 Obama shill that's defending the banks." Um but, I really want

1:00:50 to know what Graham thinks and I want to go back

1:00:52 and forth on this and just see what kind of conversation we have.

1:00:55 And it's like, if someone criticizes me for it, I don't care.

1:00:59 I know I know how I feel about that.

1:01:01 And I think the value,

1:01:03 the benefit from that conversation could be some people who may

1:01:06 not post may have learned something different than they didn't know before.

1:01:10 Either from me or from Graham.

1:01:11 Like I you know, And you said

1:01:13 from like whether it be your podcasting your writing, a lot of uh you know,

1:01:17 what you do is meant to kind of sway opinion,

1:01:20 change minds, or kind of like open eyes.

1:01:22 Um this one's kind of a you know, you've been one of the most one of the more

1:01:26 prominent voices in Democratic messaging for almost 20 years.

1:01:29 You know, the party lost in 2024.

1:01:32 They lost the working-class voters at historic rates like we you know,

1:01:36 obviously this group that you've been thinking about for 20 plus years.

1:01:39 For you personally and it's not me putting it on you.

1:01:42 For you personally in your your own head, what responsibility are you taking

1:01:47 for like the failure of Democratic communication?

1:01:50 Yeah, like do you do you do you put that on yourself or just because like

1:01:54 you're so in the game and this is your life or you see it as something separate?

1:01:58 I'm harder on myself if I think I have held something

1:02:02 back for fear of blowback or to not piss people off.

1:02:08 As I said, I don't I don't love conflict.

1:02:11 And so if if it's anything, it's like oh I should have said this earlier.

1:02:15 I should have said it louder.

1:02:17 And I have tried after 2016, 2024, all the rest,

1:02:25 to just be more humble and have some humility in my opinions.

1:02:30 And I realize that some people could take that as like wishy-washy.

1:02:35 But like for example,

1:02:37 I said a couple weeks before the Texas Senate primary that I thought that I

1:02:42 I think Talarico has a better chance to win and I have always admired him.

1:02:50 And you know, it wasn't like a hey everyone, go vote Talarico.

1:02:54 I am firmly in you know, Sure.

1:02:56 And there's some you know, I had tweeted something and some people were like,

1:03:00 well, why why hasn't the pod said anything?

1:03:04 Jasmine Crockett would lose and we can tell you guys

1:03:07 like Talarico and why aren't you coming down stronger for Talarico?

1:03:11 Why wasn't it a more full-throated endorsement?

1:03:14 Why are you so scared?

1:03:15 And it's like, look, in that situation,

1:03:17 I want to have the humility to think that to say

1:03:20 I do believe that Tellez Rico is the better bet, but I don't know for sure.

1:03:25 I can't I can't get in the minds of Texas voters.

1:03:28 I don't know I'm not like I have

1:03:30 experience that does not make me an infallible expert,

1:03:33 clearly, if you look at the last several years.

1:03:36 So, I'm going to give you my best guess and my best

1:03:39 analysis based on the experience I have, the data I've seen,

1:03:43 and then I'm going to let you make decision for yourself

1:03:45 knowing that like I am not completely certain in the outcome,

1:03:49 which is why, you know, we we always say like we're out

1:03:51 of the prediction business and we've said that since 2016.

1:03:54 And obviously, you can't be completely out of predicting

1:03:57 anything in this in this business because people

1:03:59 are asking you what you they think is going to happen or what the best bet is.

1:04:02 But I do think all of Democratic politics, politics in general,

1:04:06 would be a lot better if we all

1:04:08 had a dose of humility about um our pronunciations

1:04:13 about uh our pronouncements about what what the messaging

1:04:16 should be or what the strategy should be.

1:04:18 No, that's really that's really thoughtful to me or to me cuz uh it does feel

1:04:22 like having that balance between not being scared

1:04:25 to become the news as someone that covers it,

1:04:28 but also that not being the main goal,

1:04:31 which I think is where we see unfortunately a a lot of people who

1:04:34 have kind of entered the space for bad reasons in the last I mean,

1:04:39 it's more four, but four to eight years, I'd say.

1:04:41 Yeah.

1:04:42 It will you know, certainty it gets more attention.

1:04:46 You know, like if you can tell people this is

1:04:48 going to happen or this is absolutely we are going

1:04:51 to lose if this doesn't happen blah blah like that's going

1:04:53 to capture more attention and it's probably going to do better,

1:04:56 but like I don't know, you know, I'm just I'm just here to try to help.

1:05:00 Yeah, no.

1:05:01 I'm going to try to do the best I can.

1:05:02 Yeah, no, I mean, I don't know.

1:05:04 Talking about it it makes me think of communication style and then obviously,

1:05:07 you know, I have to think of like Trump's communication style.

1:05:09 It feels like it's Is it Is it Would you

1:05:11 say it's the opposite of everything that you believe in?

1:05:14 Not like the things he stands for, but his communication style.

1:05:16 It's right.

1:05:17 It's not nuanced.

1:05:18 It's not like coalition building.

1:05:20 It's not storytelling.

1:05:21 It's a hammer to the face.

1:05:23 And Everything is Everything is binary, black and white.

1:05:27 But every time he's run,

1:05:29 it's been more effective than what the Democrats have done.

1:05:31 You'll never take back our country with weakness.

1:05:35 You have to show strength and you have to be strong.

1:05:39 Yes.

1:05:39 like what do you make of that?

1:05:41 What I make of that is it is true.

1:05:44 The I don't think the answer is then we have to mimic that.

1:05:49 Mhm.

1:05:49 Because I think if we mimic that and people have Trump

1:05:54 and a uh a poor imitation of Trump trying to beat Trump,

1:05:58 they're going to go with the real thing.

1:06:00 And I also think that communication style at least for us,

1:06:07 for Democrats, has to flow from your beliefs about politics.

1:06:11 Mhm.

1:06:12 And if our belief about politics is that um democratic governance is the best

1:06:18 form of government and that that gives people the best chance to live happy,

1:06:24 fulfilling lives, that kind of government requires

1:06:28 an ability to grasp nuance and complexity

1:06:33 and to care about people who we don't know and who aren't like us.

1:06:38 And to be honest, to the best of our ability.

1:06:41 And there are a lot of ways that can go south.

1:06:46 And but our job is to make that successful

1:06:49 and to and to win without losing those principles.

1:06:52 Because if we lose those principles, it's not just a moral tragedy.

1:06:56 I don't think it is I don't think it is politically viable.

1:06:59 Because I think that imitating Trump is empty calories.

1:07:05 It like It It might get people thrilled for a little bit.

1:07:08 Oh, he punched him back.

1:07:09 That's great.

1:07:10 Wonderful.

1:07:10 Fine.

1:07:11 But like if there's nothing behind it,

1:07:13 if there's nothing underlying it, if there's not like a deeper vision,

1:07:17 a broader vision of like what you want

1:07:19 for the country and where you want to take the country,

1:07:21 people are going to under people are going to see through that.

1:07:24 They're just going to see through it.

1:07:25 So, do you think like what Newsom's doing,

1:07:27 is it that more or it's just the mimicry?

1:07:30 It It's funny because I Tommy and I

1:07:32 interviewed Newsom last night um on his book tour.

1:07:36 And I can already see him you know, at one point he's talking about his social

1:07:40 media and punching back and Democrats need to fight.

1:07:43 And then he was saying towards the end of the the interview, he was like,

1:07:47 but at some point he's like, we got to draw lines,

1:07:50 but we also got to draw a circle.

1:07:52 And we got to bring people back together and we can't just be

1:07:55 in total And I could see that I could see in his mind

1:07:58 the tension where he knows and this is what I think this is

1:08:01 back to our back to your first question about Tal Reco and Crockett.

1:08:04 Mhm.

1:08:05 I think this is what Tal Reco sees.

1:08:06 I think this is what Obama sees.

1:08:08 Like I I realize that Democrats right now are

1:08:13 like we need to punch him in the face.

1:08:15 We need a fighter.

1:08:16 And anyone who doesn't say that is just like the whole Michelle Obama,

1:08:20 you know, when they go when they go low, we go high.

1:08:23 When they go low, we go high.

1:08:25 It is like the easiest line to trash in the Democratic

1:08:28 Party right now and has been for several years.

1:08:30 It's just so easy to trash.

1:08:31 And like my my belief is not that it's about us being nice, right?

1:08:36 Like I don't think we just need to be nice all the time

1:08:38 and just be shrinking violets and turn the other cheek and all that kind

1:08:41 of I think that we need to know what we are for, where

1:08:45 we want to take the country how we want to get us there.

1:08:49 And then speak forcefully and passionately about

1:08:52 that and argue for that position fiercely.

1:08:55 But like you can't you can't start from well,

1:08:58 now we're just going to throw haymakers and we'll figure out the rest later.

1:09:02 Right.

1:09:03 which is where we which is, you know,

1:09:04 which is where I think a lot of politicians are.

1:09:08 [snorts] Yeah, that that Newsom I I squint a lot

1:09:11 because he just seems like three different people.

1:09:14 He's his uh media person online and then when he speaks,

1:09:19 depending on if he's talking to a Republican or not,

1:09:20 drastically different person,

1:09:22 whether it be more accommodating or uh more aggressive.

1:09:25 But kind of I want to get down to the last two questions here, right?

1:09:28 We're sitting in March of 2026.

1:09:31 Uh there's there's a war in Iran uh that Congress didn't vote on.

1:09:35 Feels just like more and more chaotic by the day.

1:09:37 We don't know where things are going to go.

1:09:38 Uh and and y'all I mean you built I feel like Crooked Media

1:09:41 to a for a certain degree to to give people a place to feel like,

1:09:44 you know, the stakes are real with also

1:09:46 without those people hopefully uh collapsing into nihilism.

1:09:50 Do you feel like that's still possible?

1:09:52 Is it actually more possible?

1:09:54 Like do you feel like the energy rising as we get closer to the midterms?

1:09:57 I do.

1:09:58 I feel the I feel the energy rising.

1:10:00 I do think it I have to think it's possible.

1:10:02 Um I I I think I am incapable of sort of giving up hope.

1:10:08 Um and I don't know if that is just who I am,

1:10:12 if it's the person I worked for for all those years,

1:10:15 if I'm just naive and just just like banging my head against a wall.

1:10:19 Um but I think that there are two I really do believe there are two options,

1:10:25 which is to give up or to keep fighting.

1:10:29 And I think that giving up ensures the worst outcome.

1:10:34 And I think that fighting at least gives us a chance.

1:10:37 And I have seen enough in my own life,

1:10:41 in in politics, throughout history, where you know,

1:10:46 dark dark periods um turn into something

1:10:49 better because people are out there and putting

1:10:52 themselves on the line and organizing

1:10:55 and working in all kinds of different ways.

1:10:57 Um and and some are riskier than others,

1:11:00 but but everyone's try sort of doing their part and doesn't happen all at once.

1:11:04 Sometimes I mean, you know,

1:11:05 civil rights movement took decades and I think about that and I'm like,

1:11:10 "Do I want to spend my days this way or do I want

1:11:14 to do something else in order to turn away from what is clearly an awful,

1:11:21 upsetting situation every single day?"

1:11:24 And while sometimes turning away seems tempting,

1:11:27 I maybe it's the Catholic guilt, you know, like I just feel like I don't

1:11:32 want to like maybe that would be nice for me.

1:11:35 Maybe I could turn away and it'll be fine

1:11:36 and then I'll like my mental health would be better.

1:11:38 Probably it won't be because I'm an addict, a political addict,

1:11:41 but like I I can't do that and so I'm just going

1:11:44 to I'm just going to keep doing this with the time that I have.

1:11:47 And so okay, that perfectly ties into what I wanted

1:11:49 to ask for the last question which was after everything, right?

1:11:53 Going through Kerry, Obama, the White House, Sandy Hook, Trump,

1:11:57 building a company, getting hit in 2024 with a the return of Trump.

1:12:01 Like do you still believe that the right words said in the right way

1:12:05 can actually change things or is that a belief that's been tweaked or altered?

1:12:10 Oh, I a thousand percent believe that.

1:12:13 I think whether it is it may not be the the the types

1:12:17 of speeches that I used to write for Obama that does that.

1:12:20 But the way that people change their minds is through conversations.

1:12:23 That is the way that we talk, we change each other's mind.

1:12:26 Whether it's about politics or whether it's an argument

1:12:29 with your friend or somebody in your family, right?

1:12:31 Like words, the words that we choose,

1:12:34 the conversations that we have is what persuades someone else

1:12:39 and our ability to be persuaded to change our minds is

1:12:43 what makes us human and it is what has been

1:12:45 like the fulcrum of human progress since the beginning of time.

1:12:49 And so I have to believe that figuring out the right

1:12:52 words and um and and going back and forth with people

1:12:56 cuz it's not a one-way street either to have a conversation

1:12:59 with people and try to like reach some common agreement.

1:13:03 I I have to believe that's possible.

1:13:04 John, thank you so much for for sharing your ears with me today.

1:13:07 Thank you.

1:13:08 This was this is a really great conversation.

1:13:09 I appreciate it.

1:13:10 It's nice to get asked some questions.

1:13:12 A little therapy.

1:13:13 Yeah, exactly.