ALLYSON & WES FELIX on Fighting Nike, Motherhood, and Making History Again | IMO

0:00 I started to hide my pregnancy, and so I would train while it was dark.

0:06 I wanted to be a mother so badly.

0:08 I wanted all the baby shower, the bump pictures,

0:12 and my experience was just lonely, isolating.

0:16 I barely ever left the house.

0:18 When I did, I was in big baggy clothing,

0:20 and we were doing this because even when

0:23 they offered the 70% less, it wasn't on paper.

0:26 And so there was the basis of them low ball balling you.

0:31 I think it was really, you know, I was older.

0:33 You were getting older and they didn't think you could do it.

0:35 Yeah, right.

0:36 And I think they didn't think that they had to pay me to do it.

0:46 This episode is brought to you by Ships.

0:51 Craig.

0:53 Michelle.

0:54 What's going on?

0:55 It's Craig, Craig and Michelle.

0:57 Michelle and Craig, how about Michelle and Craig?

0:59 Did we go over that?

1:00 No, I think I think it Michelle and Craig sounds better,

1:05 but we grew up hearing Craig and Michelle.

1:08 That's right.

1:09 I think Michelle and Greg sounds better.

1:13 You like that?

1:14 But I'm excited about our show today because when we

1:20 started talking about doing IMO and over the first season things,

1:26 the show is becoming what it's gonna be, right?

1:30 And it's beautiful.

1:31 I love how we're kind of unwinding what it is organically.

1:36 But We talked about wanting to really get more siblings.

1:40 Siblings, like situations that we can contrast and compare with our upbringing.

1:48 Especially siblings who work together.

1:51 Mm-hmm.

1:51 And we did that with Regina and Raina.

1:54 We've got a couple of people in, but this pair,

1:59 everybody will know who the sister of the team is,

2:04 duo is, I've been a fan of hers for a long time.

2:08 But we've got brother, sister here.

2:10 You wanna do the introduction?

2:12 I do.

2:12 We have Alison and Wes Felix.

2:15 So I am excited because this is my first time meeting them.

2:20 Not my first seeing them, but my first meeting them.

2:23 So, I will start with Alison's bio.

2:27 Alison Felix is the most decorated American track and field Olympian in history,

2:35 earning 31 global medals across the Olympics and world championships.

2:40 31!

2:41 That's a lot of running.

2:42 That's a lot of medals, and a lot of winning, and lot of.

2:47 Uh, placing and competing along with multiple world

2:52 records at her fifth Olympic Games in Tokyo, 2020.

2:58 She wore spikes from her own brand, Seish,

3:02 making her the first track and field athlete to complete,

3:05 to compete in her own footwear.

3:07 So we're going to talk about that.

3:09 And now Wes has a distinguished athletic and leadership background as well.

3:15 At USC, he was an all-American and captain of USC's track team.

3:21 So I can't wait to talk to them about, I mean,

3:24 we were close in college, but it wasn't like you were playing ball or anything.

3:28 Yeah, right.

3:29 That's right.

3:30 And then West founded Evolve Management.

3:33 Agency, shaping the brands of top female athletes,

3:38 including his sister, Allison Felix.

3:40 In 2021, he co-founded Sage, a women's specific performance footwear brand.

3:45 And in 2024, Always Alpha,

3:48 the first talent management firm dedicated entirely to women's sports.

3:55 Amen.

3:56 So.

3:57 So we got so much to talk about.

3:58 We have so much to talk about and we can't wait.

4:01 So why don't you guys come on out?

4:03 Allison Felix, welcome to IMO.

4:10 Oh Thank you.

4:12 Welcome, man.

4:13 Thank you, thank you.

4:14 Thank you.

4:15 Thank you so much.

4:18 See you.

4:20 Have a seat, get all settled in.

4:24 You're right.

4:25 I got it ready.

4:26 You don't have to.

4:28 Well, you guys, welcome, welcome.

4:31 Thank you.

4:32 Thank you so much.

4:33 You're looking great.

4:34 Big brother, little sister.

4:35 I love it.

4:36 Yeah, yeah.

4:38 I feel like her maturity has maybe surpassed mine now that she's a mom.

4:42 Yeah, but he was a dad first, but I still think my maturity surpasses him.

4:49 Well, I think that's a gender thing.

4:52 I think it's a gender thing,

4:55 and Misha's maturity level surpassed me when she was six.

5:01 So at least she held out for a little bit.

5:06 She was bossing me around at six years old.

5:09 So, so growing up, how did you, when did the competition start?

5:14 Like, did you guys play,

5:16 like we played everything together because she was my first playmate.

5:22 So whether it was sports or games, board games,

5:26 cards, when that that started for you and me early.

5:30 The minute you could get me to do stuff and the minute

5:32 I was old enough for him to beat me at something,

5:35 he would be like, let's play this game that I've been practicing for two years.

5:39 I like your style, I'm right there with you.

5:42 Yeah, it was the same for us.

5:45 Really early on, I feel like our family is just competitive.

5:49 So that was, you know, that was the dynamic always.

5:52 And then I was just the tag along.

5:54 You know, whatever Wes was doing, I was trying to keep up.

5:57 And so if he was playing with the boys

5:59 in the neighborhood and they were playing basketball, I wasn't too far along.

6:03 But he never let me win in anything.

6:07 And I also didn't...

6:09 I was always Wes's little sister, like I didn't have a name.

6:12 So he was doing well.

6:13 And when I came along, you know, that kind of was the thing.

6:16 And so I felt like I was trying to kind of keep up with you.

6:21 Yeah.

6:21 It was interesting as you guys were doing the open and you were saying,

6:25 is it Michelle and Craig or is it Craig and Michelle?

6:29 And it's interesting for us just when it switched.

6:32 Yeah.

6:32 You know, it was always Wes and Allison

6:34 and it was this is Allison or Wes's little sister.

6:39 Wes's Little Sister, yeah.

6:39 And then all of a sudden, high school, it like turned.

6:44 Like Alison and Wes and it was that's

6:47 Alison's brother and it's been that way ever since.

6:53 We had the same, ours was a little later when she,

6:56 when she became iconic as the first lady.

7:00 And it's like I became, I became Michelle Obama's brother.

7:06 And I was more than happy to be that, you know,

7:11 because she had been Craig Robinson's little sister for so long.

7:14 And it was, it was irritating at times,

7:18 but you got to meet some Well, I probably like you, Allison.

7:23 I adored my big brother.

7:25 I mean, there was never a feeling of competition.

7:29 We'd compete, but you know, if he got something new,

7:32 I was excited for him, you know.

7:35 So tell us about your parents because we miss our so much.

7:42 Tell us how they influenced the people you became.

7:45 Yeah, so our dad is a pastor.

7:48 So, yeah, we grew up as PKs, and our mom was a pastor too.

7:52 Oh, is that a thing?

7:53 PK?

7:56 That's because you don't go to church.

8:00 That is the truth, I wouldn't- Yeah.

8:05 And our mom was elementary school teacher.

8:07 She taught third grade.

8:09 And so, yeah, they were very much people of service and invested in people.

8:16 And we always grew up hearing, your parents are so amazing.

8:19 They've done so much for us.

8:21 And for us, I think they're really great examples of what hard work

8:24 looked like and what passion looked like

8:27 and really gave us a beautiful upbringing.

8:31 Yeah, I think I, I always think of, you know,

8:35 the, especially our dad, his, his dad passed away when he was eight.

8:39 So he had such a different life than we did, but he,

8:44 where he grew up, it was two streets over from where we grew up.

8:48 So literally exact same neighborhood, you know, just two streets over.

8:52 That's similar to us.

8:55 Yeah, we grew up in the community that our parents grew up.

8:58 Yeah, same thing.

8:59 And then his dad passed when he was eight.

9:01 So then they had to leave that neighborhood and they had to go out,

9:05 just kind of into LA.

9:07 And, um, and so to get to experience what

9:09 it was like to have both parents there and alive.

9:14 And, you know, I think we got to experience things

9:17 that, that for him were his like hopes for us,

9:21 but also he was so protective because I think he knew how fragile.

9:26 All of it was.

9:27 And for us growing up in LA in the 80s,

9:30 90s, like it was, it was like a war zone.

9:34 There And, you know, we lived in this beautiful little pocket.

9:38 Mm-hmm.

9:38 This gated little pocket, but it was still right in the middle of all of it.

9:43 Well, that's all black neighborhoods.

9:44 If you grow up in a, I don't care what socioeconomic,

9:47 at least when we were coming up, black folks all live together.

9:52 So there might be a block or two or four,

9:56 but you were surrounded by all of the black community,

10:00 which I thought was a beautiful way for us to grow up,

10:03 you know, because you were never too far.

10:06 You never could get too big for yourself.

10:08 You couldn't.

10:09 And I know growing up in our neighborhood,

10:11 being kids that studied and spoke proper English,

10:14 you know, you were living two lives.

10:17 You know, you had to get to school,

10:19 you know clear and know how to act with your neighborhood friends, right?

10:23 And then come back home and straighten up and use the right English.

10:28 It was almost like, you it was a complete code switching.

10:31 But I treasured that experience.

10:34 I'm so glad we grew up.

10:36 With that, both of you, and we'll talk about sports,

10:41 but what's very clear in your career,

10:45 Allison, is that you have a very high bar for yourself, period.

10:52 And you put so much pressure on yourself.

10:56 I wanna know, and Wes, you're probably the same way,

10:59 but I'm just wondering where does that come from?

11:03 Because...

11:03 Your parents, you know, they're like, you succeeded when you graduated, right?

11:09 Good people.

11:11 Not in a gang.

11:12 You know, the bar becomes, I wouldn't say low, but I know our parents,

11:16 they didn't put pressure on us to be

11:19 anything other than good people in the world.

11:22 You know?

11:22 There wasn't like, You're going to be an Olympic athlete.

11:25 You're gonna be president.

11:26 You know, it was just like, so where does that...

11:30 Pressure for you guys come from?

11:32 Yeah, it definitely, yeah, didn't come from our parents.

11:35 And it's really interesting because they had no athletic dreams for us.

11:40 So for me, it really, it just felt like who I was.

11:45 It felt very natural to have these high expectations.

11:50 But I think I did see my parents work so hard at what they were doing.

11:55 And so when I did find something that I was passionate about,

11:58 I wanted to bring that same energy to it.

12:01 And so I think that's what it was.

12:04 I wanted it to do it the best that I could.

12:06 And that always looked like setting a goal.

12:09 And then if I achieved it, then okay,

12:11 there's another one and there's another one, and it just kind of kept going.

12:15 But it was really kind of internal for me that I kept pushing.

12:21 You started with, or you play basketball, where did the running come in?

12:27 Because what I found with most basketball players, running is a punishment.

12:33 So you don't like to do it and then you have, you,

12:37 so you went from basketball to running

12:40 and, and I know you followed him with the running.

12:43 But where did they running come?

12:45 For me, it was really just around school and like making friends.

12:49 But Wes was at a different school.

12:51 And so he was already running and he was all ready doing well.

12:54 And so it was kind of a natural next step for me to try.

12:58 I was playing basketball, but still hadn't made the friends that I needed.

13:03 I didn't find my group.

13:04 And then that's really for me how...

13:07 And that was the same, our dad was, we were out in new school and he was like,

13:11 sports are a great way to meet people.

13:13 Just trying to, trying to meet, people just trying to make friends.

13:15 Stumbled into it.

13:17 Yeah.

13:17 And then I think.

13:18 You know, and it, you know, that's, yeah.

13:22 Yeah, it did out, it, it...

13:24 It did out.

13:25 Then we fell in love with it.

13:26 Yeah.

13:27 And I think it was a huge part of our bond too,

13:30 was like, it was like the family business.

13:33 So what was it like, Alison, going to the Olympics at 18?

13:39 Mmm.

13:40 Do you remember that?

13:41 Is that still?

13:43 Yeah, I mean, yes, very fresh.

13:46 It was, everything was new for me because I had only really seriously

13:50 joined the track team at my high school a little over four years before.

13:55 And so everything happened so quickly.

13:57 And so for me, it was like the, you know,

14:00 the biggest competition that I've raced in.

14:03 It was away from home.

14:04 It was all the things.

14:06 I didn't grow up wanting to be an Olympian.

14:09 So.

14:09 It was something, you know, that I found much later.

14:12 So I was really everything that they had to offer.

14:15 I was doing walking and opening ceremonies,

14:17 trading pins, living in the Olympic Village.

14:19 It was just so exciting.

14:21 But when it came to the competition,

14:22 I was still very much so that competitive, you know athlete.

14:27 And so I ended up getting a silver medal.

14:29 Oh, we saw the documentary.

14:33 But I was Not happy.

14:36 But just in terms of context because you know everybody should

14:41 know you but we are we want to make sure that every

14:46 listener understands because You you you were the one of the youngest

14:53 Olympians to run in your meet to make that jump that quickly.

14:59 Yeah And I want to hear a bit about that that experience because

15:07 people didn't think they thought you were going after the Olympics too soon.

15:12 Yeah.

15:12 You were a phenom too.

15:14 So there was all this attention.

15:17 Yeah.

15:17 Can you talk a bit about that, the journey to the Olympics?

15:21 Yeah.

15:22 Sorry.

15:23 Metta feels like failure.

15:25 Yeah, it did.

15:26 I was, I had done really well in high school.

15:29 And so...

15:30 Do it justice, do it justice.

15:33 Wes, just jump in because she's not going to do it.

15:35 I'm just going to set the stage.

15:36 That's why Big Brother's here.

15:39 So, Allison was state champion in California, which is a huge track state.

15:47 Right.

15:48 When was your first state championship?

15:50 Sophomore year?

15:50 My sophomore year, yeah.

15:51 So sophomore year was her first state Championship,

15:54 which just doesn't, that's insanely rare in California.

16:00 And then she's on the cover of Sports Illustrated

16:03 by the time she's 17 as a track athlete, which again, that doesn't just happen.

16:11 When it was her senior year, she went to Mexico City.

16:15 She went to a private school and she had a coach.

16:18 Who was like so dedicated.

16:20 I think like it's such an amazing part of your story.

16:23 Just the way that your coach like believed

16:25 in you and wanted you to have all the opportunities.

16:27 But he said, hey, there's this pro meet you can go compete in.

16:33 We should go down there.

16:33 It's in Mexico City.

16:35 They asked you to come, they're gonna pay, you know.

16:38 And so our parents go down there and she runs in this meet against.

16:42 Women who this is their job.

16:44 This is how they put food on the table.

16:47 This isn't fun anymore.

16:48 This is their jobs.

16:50 And she goes down there.

16:51 They're not going back, going to the prom.

16:52 No, no.

16:54 She goes down there and she runs and she beats an entire field of professionals.

16:59 Not takes third and beats most of the pros.

17:02 She beats all of the pro's.

17:04 And she runs the fastest time in the world for any

17:08 woman that year and then decided that she wanted to go pro.

17:14 And so she became the first high school athlete to go directly pro.

17:25 So I was talking with a friend the other day

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17:31 I know I'll definitely be tuning in, maybe

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21:17 What made you decide to go pro?

21:20 What...

21:22 It was a really big decision because,

21:24 yeah, that wasn't happening in track and field.

21:27 And the biggest factor was that the Olympic Games were going

21:30 to be the next year and Wes was already at USC.

21:32 And so I had this front row seat watching

21:35 him compete and seeing what it actually looked like.

21:39 And he had, you know, it was all about the NCAAs.

21:42 And so he was all the point system and so he would have a lot of events.

21:47 And, you know, if you wanted to do well at the Olympics, that was fine.

21:51 But that was not going to be the primary goal.

21:54 And so in really getting to talk to him and his experience, it was like,

21:58 if I really wanted to take it seriously to try to make the Olympic team,

22:02 my best bet was going to able to just

22:05 solely focus on that and not run for the team.

22:08 And I know, you know,

22:08 I would have wanted to be a team player and have done all the things.

22:11 And so that was really what it came down to was, could I...

22:16 Focus solely on trying to make the Olympic team.

22:19 And it was a decision that was really criticized a lot.

22:24 And of course we didn't have social media like we have now.

22:30 But, you know, I heard it and it was,

22:32 it was really hard, but I, my family, you know, they supported me.

22:38 And, and yeah, I think I made the right decision for what my goals were.

22:43 I still had feelings of missing out

22:46 on the true college experience and, you know,

22:48 being on the team and all of those things.

22:51 But I, yeah, I, I went for, you know, I went for trying to make the team.

22:57 Do you, n- Remember the first time you said to yourself,

23:00 I want to be an Olympian.

23:02 It was really late.

23:04 It was probably around the time, a little bit before that race in Mexico City.

23:10 Because for me, I had always looked at it as like,

23:12 this is going to be college, you know?

23:14 This is my ticket to college and to get it paid for.

23:18 And so I always had that mindset.

23:19 And also because we found it late,

23:22 I don't think I really knew it was like a career path.

23:26 It's like you didn't run, you ran in a neighborhood.

23:29 Yeah, you compete in school.

23:31 And it's just so different than like the NBA

23:33 or the NFL where you're hearing these contracts and all this stuff.

23:38 I didn't know it.

23:39 We knew no one who was...

23:40 I didn't know, we knew no one who was a professional track athlete.

23:42 And so I think it was just, you know, even the possibility.

23:45 And then, you, know,

23:47 once I had done really well and I started to like look and see,

23:52 oh, you there are these people who, you who do this for a living.

23:56 It's like, oh, wow, that sounds amazing.

23:59 So not too long after that race, it was like, OK, I this is what I want to do.

24:03 Win.

24:04 I really wanna take it all the way.

24:06 Well, speaking of kids just doing stuff, so you start.

24:08 Managing, Allison.

24:11 I just, how, you know, because you, how were you when you started managing?

24:19 I was young, I think I was like 24, maybe 25.

24:23 Soon.

24:24 How did the, what was the conversation?

24:27 It's so funny because I was kind of at this place

24:30 in my career where I was looking for new management.

24:33 I was going to a new sponsor and so there was a lot of change happening.

24:37 And I never felt like I had really been,

24:41 got the sponsors and the deals that I should have.

24:44 And so I was really on the hunt for that.

24:47 And Wes was also in this moment in his career at a, transition as well.

24:53 He had a liver virus where it was clear

24:56 that he was not going to be able to continue.

24:59 And so I think everything was...

25:01 Repeat it.

25:01 Not in life.

25:02 Yes, yes, okay.

25:02 I would live.

25:03 Bye!

25:04 Continue on in the sports.

25:07 They're putting death on me, you know.

25:10 But it was kind of this moment that it just aligned,

25:13 and you actually like made a proposal.

25:16 I think he like put a proposal together to our parents,

25:19 like around representing me.

25:21 And I called her Miss Felix in the proposal.

25:25 College then?

25:28 I was a couple of years out of college, I had just been running for a few years.

25:32 I was sponsored by Nike and had the injury

25:35 and then she got her Miss Felix letter.

25:38 So I guess the proposal was really great because,

25:42 but it was like this kind of natural next step and I had all the confidence.

25:48 For me it was great because I felt like for the first time in my entire career,

25:52 I could solely focus on the competition and the training and just say like,

25:57 okay, you've got this other side.

25:59 You know, I looked at her business and at the time she had

26:03 like this sponsorship with Adidas and that was where like her income came from.

26:07 Name from.

26:07 But she had these outside sponsors, and there were two of them,

26:11 and one was Visa and one was Powerbar,

26:14 and together it was a combined $35,000 a year.

26:18 Mm-hmm.

26:18 And so I looked at that and was like, that sounds crazy to me.

26:22 Bye.

26:23 My sister just won an Olympic silver medal.

26:26 She's 18 years old.

26:27 Like she's like the youngest Olympian on the team.

26:30 She's the youngest sprint world champion in history.

26:33 $35,000 doesn't, I didn't know what a lot was, but I knew 35,000 wasn't a lot.

26:38 What do you think it was that, why do you think you were underpaid at that time?

26:44 Because it is true.

26:45 You were a phenom, but you were making $35,000 a year.

26:49 I think probably a combination of things, but I was at a large agency.

26:54 And I think I, well, I felt like I was lost in the cracks.

26:59 Mm-hmm.

26:59 I didn't.

26:59 I didn't feel like anybody was really fighting for me.

27:02 I think in, especially being a female, a black woman,

27:06 someone has to be out there really going hard for you.

27:10 And I don't think I was showing up in rooms.

27:13 I don't think I really was a factor in so much.

27:18 I don't think anyone was really pushing for me and so I

27:20 think that all shifted when the person representing me also cared about me,

27:25 you know, and cared about my wellbeing and Yeah,

27:30 that really shifted when we started working together.

27:34 And it's hard because, you know, everything is about the Olympic Games for us.

27:38 That is our championship.

27:40 That's the biggest thing.

27:41 But it happens every four years.

27:43 And the world only pays attention for those two weeks.

27:47 And so all of your earning potential is really right there.

27:51 But it's also the most, you now, it's the event you have to be ready for.

27:54 And so there's...

27:56 So much that goes into the training, the day in and day out.

28:00 And we do have a professional circuit that we participate every year,

28:06 but it's nothing like the Olympic games.

28:09 And so just the weight of that and the opportunity is small.

28:15 The window is small of your earning potential.

28:18 And so, a lot goes into it and...

28:23 I always say it's, you know, for me, my race was the 221 seconds.

28:27 And if you mess it up, you've got to wait another four years.

28:30 And so it's not only the athletic pursuit of it,

28:33 but the business side of it as well.

28:35 It's like, how do we maximize this time that you don't

28:38 know if you're going to go once or you'll have multiple opportunities.

28:42 So I think it's really difficult for Olympians.

28:46 And then when you start to even get smaller for, you know, for.

28:50 Olympians of color for women, you know, the opportunities are smaller.

28:55 So it's been challenging through the years to really be able to get out there.

29:01 And I always feel like for female athletes as well,

29:03 is not only do you have to be extraordinary in what you do,

29:08 but there's also this other thing where it feels

29:11 like there's like the standard of beauty or there's,

29:14 you have to also be appealing in this certain way.

29:18 And it I think after a while, it just becomes exhausting.

29:21 It's like you're constantly fighting to make it.

29:25 And sometimes you feel like you are not yourself

29:29 when you're trying to fit this version of like, what are they looking for?

29:33 How can I be that when it's not really who I am?

29:36 And so I think it's really been a struggle,

29:39 but I think definitely it was a turning point when we started working together,

29:43 I felt like I could lean into more of myself.

29:47 And be able to honor that.

29:50 I also want to just pitch She Runs the World,

29:54 which is an amazing documentary that, and I

29:57 want to talk more about that, that really

30:00 gives the audience a clear sense of who you both are and, you know,

30:07 character-wise as an athlete.

30:09 Um.

30:10 Uh, so I want people to, cause that's it, it's, I know it's done.

30:15 I've seen it and it's played

30:17 at the Martha's Vineyard African-American Film Festival.

30:21 But I hope more people are going to get to see it,

30:25 but be on the lookout for she runs

30:27 the world and we'll talk more about that story.

30:30 But you guys did something different to keep the light shining.

30:36 Um, because we, we know Alison Felix, um,

30:40 you know, we, we know you inside and out.

30:42 Um, so what did you all, what do you think the difference was for you,

30:47 um in sort of maintaining kind of a high level

30:52 of presence and building an economic model that could sustain you.

30:58 I think it really was eventually doing things outside of the traditional sense.

31:04 I think a lot of stuff shifted for us when we started speaking out,

31:09 once we created our company and I was sponsored by Seishu, our own company.

31:17 It was like breaking outside of mold of the way that things

31:20 had always been done and understanding that that's okay and that's good.

31:25 And I think it was also just.

31:28 Being ourselves, instead of trying to fit into this mold

31:31 of what you think that they're looking for.

31:34 Can we talk about what we're talking to?

31:36 Because you're killing it, winning medals, got big Nike sponsorship.

31:41 You are the female athlete at Nike and they are

31:45 making money off of you and you are killing it.

31:49 And then this wonderful thing happens that turns

31:54 out to not be a wonderful thing in sports.

31:58 Can you talk a bit about it?

31:59 Yeah, I started a family and I had, I was really scared to do that.

32:03 You had the nerve.

32:04 I know.

32:05 Well, I waited first because I felt like I couldn't.

32:07 I had seen, you know, my friends and I'd seen my teammates struggle.

32:12 And so I felt, like, okay, well, if I do enough,

32:15 if I have enough medals, then that won't be me.

32:19 And I waited, I had gone to four games, I had six gold medals,

32:22 and I felt I'm in the safe zone and I start my family.

32:26 And even before I.

32:29 Disclose my pregnancy to them.

32:31 Our negotiations began at an offer of 70% less than what I was making before.

32:39 And that just like, that just shook me because it was like, wow,

32:43 they don't even know and already this is in such a bad place.

32:47 And so my fear amplified and I started to train,

32:51 I started the hide my pregnancy.

32:53 And so I would train while it was dark.

32:56 I Like I wanted to be a mother so badly.

33:00 I wanted all the, you know, the baby shower, the bump pictures.

33:04 And my experience was just lonely, isolating.

33:08 I barely ever left the house.

33:09 When I did, I was in big baggy clothing and we were doing

33:13 this because even when they offered the 70% less, it wasn't on paper.

33:18 And so there was- And what was the basis of them low balling you did?

33:23 I think it was really, you now, Iwas older.

33:25 You were getting older and they didn't think you could do it.

33:28 Yeah, and I think they didn't they had to pay me to do it,

33:32 you know, who else was going to pay me?

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37:36 I found in representing Alison that people are afraid because I'm her brother.

37:42 Mm-hmm.

37:42 They dance around things and I'll try to just tell them I was like,

37:46 you know, I understand that's my sister.

37:48 And also, I'm not here as her brother, I mean here as our manager.

37:52 And so like, I need to understand what

37:54 you're talking to say what you need to say,

37:56 you know, and, and something that that they said was it's just business.

38:02 And also, you know, she is getting older.

38:06 And how old were you at the time?

38:08 Was I like 32?

38:10 Yeah.

38:10 32.

38:11 Yeah.

38:12 She's getting older and, you know, and as conversations went on and it got a bit

38:19 more heated and truth came out a little bit more.

38:23 Something else they said that I found like unbelievably just offensive was,

38:28 well, we've paid her a lot of money over the years.

38:32 And when I remember...

38:33 She's had enough.

38:33 When the comment came out,

38:35 you're kind of looking at a white man telling you His exact words were,

38:43 well, she's made a lot of money with us.

38:44 I hope she's saved some.

38:47 And my comment was, and you've made much more

38:50 money off of her than she's made off of you.

38:55 And as we went through the negotiations, what became really,

39:01 really clear to me was that this was just because they believed they could.

39:07 It was because they could and, you know,

39:09 there's the parts of that that are, that are ugly and horrible.

39:12 There's a parts of, that that, are just

39:14 business and you don't have to be amazing, great people to do business.

39:20 It would obviously be better if you were,

39:21 but you don't have to, be and, and I think what they,

39:26 what they never thought could happen is what, what did happen.

39:32 Um which is.

39:33 They never thought that we would actually stand up

39:35 to them and that Alison would sit down and.

39:40 Yeah, I wrote a New York Times op-ed sharing what was going on.

39:43 We had turned our attention away from the financial

39:47 part of it and asked for maternal protections,

39:49 which simply meant the contracts are performance based.

39:53 And so they're created so that if you go

39:55 to the Olympics or world championships, you get a bonus.

39:58 And if you don't, you got a reduction.

40:00 But if you have a baby or if you've just given birth,

40:03 there was nothing to protect you.

40:05 So I was simply asking for time to be able to recover after childbirth.

40:10 And not be further financially penalized.

40:13 And at first, they said yes.

40:16 And I was like, okay, then we can move forward.

40:19 And when the contract came back,

40:21 there was no mention of maternity, no pregnancy.

40:24 And what we learned was that they were

40:25 not willing to set that precedent for everyone.

40:28 They were willing to give it to me, but not for everyone,

40:32 and so for me, that was just, this happened over a course of time.

40:35 I ended up giving birth to my daughter and.

40:38 There was just, it just, to me, it felt unacceptable.

40:42 It just felt like I couldn't stand by on that.

40:46 So wrote that New York Times op-ed,

40:49 shared what so many women before me had also,

40:51 who were under NDAs, had gone through.

40:55 And yeah, shared my truth.

40:57 And I think it was about two and a half weeks after that op-Ed came out.

41:01 That Nike changed their policy along with many

41:05 other companies today offering 18 months of maternal protection.

41:10 And yeah, but terrifying, you know.

41:13 I bet.

41:14 Terrifying.

41:14 Really, really scary.

41:16 I'm thinking back to something you said earlier

41:19 about your parents being of service to everyone.

41:23 That was your opportunity to be of service.

41:26 Because you could have taken your money.

41:28 You could have just said, okay,

41:30 I'm hooked up like a lot of people do and so kudos to you.

41:35 At any point in time during that whole process,

41:40 did your passion for the sport change?

41:43 Like, did you feel like, oh, I'll show I'm not I'm I'm, I'm through with this.

41:47 I feel like I felt like I had a lot to prove after that.

41:51 It was almost like in going through that, I knew I wasn't done.

41:56 And I hated that I felt like they thought I was through,

42:01 that now I was a mother, I needed to be on to something else.

42:06 I hated it that I was being forced.

42:09 In this narrative that I did not connect with.

42:12 I knew that I still could make it back to the Olympics.

42:15 I knew that I could still be the present mother that I wanted to be.

42:19 And so the idea that I felt like I couldn't make my own decision,

42:24 that motivated me to say like, well,

42:27 I want to show the world that this is a possibility.

42:31 And also I want to show my daughter that when it's her time to do whatever,

42:36 that you can absolutely do the things that the convictions

42:40 of your heart and that you can do it fully, you know, in all the ways.

42:46 And so that was the big shift that I felt.

42:48 Instead of walking away from the sport, you walked away from Nike.

42:53 I walked away from Nike and knew that I wasn't done and Wes and I,

42:58 you know, always figuring it out, figuring out what was next.

43:03 We thought, you now, okay,

43:04 we've got to find a new sponsor and that was the task.

43:08 But as we did a really deep dive in the industry, and Wes,

43:12 I think really going into big brother mode, he was like,

43:15 I just think that we should do this ourselves.

43:17 And I'm like, well, what exactly does that mean?

43:19 You know I had just had a baby, all these things are happening in the world.

43:25 And he said, I think that we should build a shoe company.

43:29 And that just felt also so big, just coming from where we come from.

43:33 I didn't see the path to that, but the more that I sat with it,

43:37 I understood what he was saying.

43:39 It was like, instead of begging these big brands to do the right thing,

43:44 to build the thing differently, we could do it.

43:47 And even though it was very ambitious.

43:51 We did that and we learned that, you know, shoes were not being made for women.

43:57 And that took time to figure out what that meant because, you know,

44:00 we've all been to the shoe store

44:01 and the women's side and I'm like, no, there's shoes.

44:04 But as we unpacked it, we learned, you now,

44:06 a shoe is just made off of a last, which is a mold of a foot.

44:10 And it's the mold of man's foot used to make women's sneakers.

44:14 And I had no idea of being a runner that I was running

44:18 literally in men's shoes and when we figured that out, it was like, wow.

44:22 You know, we have this opportunity, you we can,

44:25 We're at- absolutely where we're supposed to be and we can do

44:28 things differently and we can also see and celebrate women in a holistic

44:31 way that we didn't feel like was being done and I think

44:35 you know when you've really given your life to something for so long

44:38 and to feel so discarded it was very painful and so it

44:44 was picking up the pieces and to me you know to be able

44:47 to make it back to the Olympics to to do it you know

44:51 wearing our our shoes was incredible and also in front of my daughter,

44:56 you know, and really getting to, you now,

44:58 one day fully be able to tell her what all of that means.

45:03 I think it was really a full circle experience.

45:06 Also it was COVID year.

45:07 Yeah, it was a COVID year, yeah.

45:09 So you also, it was so different too, like first games we were not.

45:13 Yeah.

45:13 Well, you skipped over the part that your pregnancy was not uneventful,

45:20 which is the other powerful thing to watch in She Runs the World is just

45:28 your physical stamina and your comeback because

45:32 you had pre-eclampsia and you had a C-section.

45:37 Yeah, you gave birth.

45:39 Early, so Cammie was premature and those days

45:43 watching you and your husband go back and forth

45:46 to that NICU and that New Year's Eve when you could bring her home, I just, ugh.

45:53 Yeah, it was heartbreaking, you know, and I think even more so,

45:57 like, I didn't realize that that was not an uncommon experience,

46:03 that so many black women have gone through that and so many don't

46:07 get to have that experience of walking out of the hospital with their family.

46:10 And so that shifted my life.

46:14 You know, I just felt like we have to be doing more.

46:18 There's no way that we can continue down this path, you know,

46:22 for it to be more dangerous for me to give birth than it was for my mother.

46:26 I mean, that just doesn't make sense.

46:28 And something like 80% of deaths

46:31 and complications of women of color are preventable.

46:33 And so that whole experience,

46:36 you know I think it gave me just that push that I needed to be

46:40 able to speak out and to be to do things I never would have imagined,

46:44 because that's so far from what makes me feel comfortable, but it was,

46:49 it's necessary because, you know,

46:51 Black women are dying giving birth today in our country.

46:55 It's.

46:55 Well, you were living out the full experience of the devaluation

47:00 of women and black women through this sport and through in the world.

47:06 I mean, Wes, like you said, women are, a lot of women we feel beaten down

47:12 because there's so little investment in a woman's life,

47:17 and to see it in this contract

47:19 negotiation where they essentially say, you're done.

47:22 You know, we're through with you, you know,

47:25 there are a lot of male athletes that get legacy deals where they're,

47:30 you know, they're they are done,

47:32 but you know the men around the table still see the value that they bring,

47:38 which is how that's the other reason how they're making more money.

47:43 You know, so the shoe situation is like, it's like our health.

47:47 You know?

47:48 We're not even told about the dangers of giving birth.

47:51 You know studies aren't being done, you know, outrage isn't happening.

47:57 We're just, we're doing the most important

47:59 thing which is bringing life into the world

48:03 and nobody tells us about preeclampsia or morning

48:07 sickness or what it does to our bodies.

48:10 And now companies want to penalize female athletes

48:15 in a pro-life world where we care so much about life,

48:21 you know, but we don't care about the mother who's giving birth.

48:26 That's the full power of your story because there's so many,

48:33 you've lived out the complete disparity in health.

48:39 Yeah.

48:40 Among women, black women, the economic disparities that we face

48:47 as being a world-class athlete, an American hero.

48:53 Thank you.

48:54 It means so much.

48:55 Well, you know, we, we have a listener question,

48:57 but before we get to the listener question I understand that you,

49:02 you may have some news for us.

49:05 I don't know if it's news, but I think one thing,

49:11 there's a thought that keeps coming back

49:14 to me and I've been thinking about honoring it.

49:18 And it's just really the idea, a lot of what we've been talking about as far

49:22 as women and I think when we get to a certain age,

49:27 that sometimes we are told that our life should look a certain way.

49:31 And so I've had this feeling of, do I want to come to LA?

49:34 Do I want to try?

49:35 One more time to make an Olympic team and I keep having the scary feeling

49:41 of it feels like something I want to do and the push to honor that.

49:50 And not because I feel like I need to or that it's something around performance,

49:56 but the feeling that I have is really

49:59 around the narrative for women and, you know,

50:03 this idea of can we have ambition after achievement?

50:06 Mm.

50:06 Can we, what if there is more?

50:09 And I think I'm deeply curious if I could do it.

50:12 Yeah!

50:12 I think it's really big and it's super, it's a big goal.

50:20 But it excites me and it scares me.

50:22 And I think my first thought was, okay,

50:23 this is something that I really want to hold on to and do in private.

50:29 But I think that that also makes me feel like it's probably the right thing.

50:35 It's a little scary.

50:36 It's scary.

50:36 I mean, I think maybe it's something that other women can relate to.

50:39 If there's anybody who should feel like when it comes to her profession,

50:45 her sport, her life, who has nothing to prove, it's you.

50:52 You don't have anything to prove.

50:56 You don't need this.

50:58 But if it's something you want, yeah, yeah.

51:04 Because it's not for them.

51:07 You know, it's for this, it is for Cammie,

51:11 it for all the Cammies that come after,

51:13 all the women who were told no, who stopped when they were told, no.

51:19 All the women who will continue to be told, no, and how old are you now?

51:23 I'm 40.

51:24 You're 40.

51:25 You're a baby.

51:26 I'm 62.

51:27 And you're absolutely right.

51:30 Those bars were false.

51:33 Those boxes that they put us in aren't true.

51:37 They've never been true.

51:39 Um, but because the world is designed for men.

51:43 They create the boxes, they put us in, you know,

51:46 even though there's something in you that says,

51:48 I might be able to do, I have it in me.

51:52 I am not who you say I am.

51:54 I am NOT the box that you put me in.

51:57 We all need a little bit of that.

52:00 Um, I think it would be a powerful statement.

52:03 And that's what hard things are.

52:05 You know, hard things, and I learned this from my husband because I'm probably,

52:11 I'm not as shy as you,

52:13 but I'm inclined to step back from a thing and go, why would you do that?

52:20 It seems like, you know, but I've got this partner who's like, why not?

52:25 You know?

52:26 If not than who, you know?

52:30 So that that's all it is.

52:32 It's just saying yes and then turning your back to what everybody else has

52:37 to say Because the journey is going to require a lot of work and a lot

52:41 Of focus that you already know how to do and I would just narrow

52:44 in on the beauty of that process and let it be whatever it's going to be.

52:49 I just think the process of the effort is powerful, you know,

52:55 and you're going to, you're, you want the goal, you don't want to lose.

53:00 And that's, that's great.

53:01 Now she's getting into my lane.

53:04 She's getting in my lane as the coach at the table.

53:07 Don't say coach.

53:08 I would, I suspect there's a little competition to haul like still left over.

53:15 Thank you.

53:17 And I would just be okay when this is a training start.

53:20 I mean, LeBron is still playing, you know?

53:24 Let's put the team together to make this successful.

53:28 Who's coaching, who's training, who's setting the schedule.

53:34 I mean, I've got goosebumps.

53:37 I'm excited for you.

53:39 Well, I think it's also knowing that I'm OK if this ends with me not making it.

53:46 It's the question of, is it possible?

53:48 Well, I'm not sure, but I'm deeply curious.

53:52 And I think just knowing that you can go for something,

53:56 even at a certain age, that that doesn't have to be a limit.

54:00 It doesn't have to be something that turns you away.

54:03 And not to poo poo all of the warm stuff we're talking about,

54:10 a lot of athletes don't take it to the next

54:13 level because they're afraid that they might not make it.

54:20 I'm trying to teach our high school kids that I'm coaching right now the beauty

54:26 of the journey is in the process

54:29 and the journey itself and that never goes away.

54:33 Yeah, yeah, I think failure or failure, you know, it's a part of it.

54:39 I feel like I've learned so much more from the things that didn't

54:42 go the way that I had thought they were supposed to go.

54:45 And there's so much to be learned.

54:47 And so there is something that excites me

54:49 of what will I learn in this process, you now?

54:52 And what is there, what is for me?

54:55 It may not look maybe like the goal that I have set before,

54:59 but I think that there is some thing powerful there.

55:02 Oh Speaking of helping folks,

55:16 this is a perfect time for our questions from Ashley in Long Beach.

55:21 When you consider a new venture,

55:24 what signals tell you it's time to pivot and what criteria help you decide what

55:28 to say yes to and what to lovingly release when your time and energy are finite?

55:34 For those of us with many callings and limited capacity,

55:37 how do we pursue the next thing without sacrificing impact or our wellbeing?

55:42 That's a good question,

55:43 because I feel like it's what I've been grappling with as well.

55:48 I know one place I like to start with is asking myself, is there an impact here?

55:55 Do I have purpose here?

55:56 Do I something to give instead of just

56:00 thinking purely about things that are practical?

56:05 And so I think that if there is

56:07 something that's bigger than yourself also there, that.

56:11 You know, that's a good indication that you're where you're supposed to be.

56:15 So that's my first kind of thoughts.

56:19 Well, and I, especially Ashley is a woman.

56:26 Like, guess what?

56:28 We don't, we can do stuff just for us, you know?

56:32 I mean, because I'm just listening and it's like, guess what?

56:35 You don't have to have a bigger purpose.

56:38 LeBron doesn't have a bigger purpose,

56:40 Tom Brady didn't have, didn't have a big purpose.

56:44 I mean men decide they want to do it.

56:47 They do it regardless of whether their family wants it or anybody wants it.

56:55 Sometimes it's grounded and what does your heart tell you you want?

57:00 And I think as women, it's okay for us.

57:04 To look at what we want and to start

57:07 from that place of how does this make me feel?

57:11 What what am I getting out of it?

57:13 You know, and and it's okay to start there as a woman You know

57:18 We don't have to have a bigger purpose you your goal That's a lot

57:22 of things that we will do around the table will impact other people and that's

57:26 for all of us As people who grew up with service in our minds,

57:30 that's always going to be there You know,

57:32 so it's not even like you got to put that in your head or, you know,

57:36 if Ashley doesn't have to put that in her head because it's already there.

57:40 But I think it's okay to be driven by the thing that you care about.

57:45 You know?

57:45 I tell young people, if you don't know what you want to be,

57:48 then start thinking about what you like, you know, what you enjoy.

57:53 What, what, what if you're going to do something really well,

57:57 it, you've got to have some level of excitement.

58:00 To get up every day and train

58:02 for the next several years to qualify for the Olympics.

58:07 You, Allison, have to wanna get up

58:11 everyday because nobody's gonna be watching the process.

58:14 Just like you said, that's the curse of the Olympic athlete.

58:18 You train in the dark, you leave in the darkness, and there's one meet.

58:25 There's one chance.

58:26 That's all it is.

58:28 It's 21 seconds, yeah.

58:31 And then everything else, you know, people may not care.

58:36 You may not get anything afterwards.

58:37 So it's all about what you want.

58:39 And I think for Ashley and for anyone out there making choices,

58:44 I think it's perfectly fine to start with what will bring me joy,

58:50 what will get me out of bed.

58:52 And if the thing I'm doing right now isn't doing

58:55 that, then let me take some time to figure that out.

58:59 And I think young people have to understand that, you know,

59:03 in life, you don't pick a one thing oftentimes and do it forever.

59:08 The world isn't even designed like that anymore.

59:11 Gone are the days when our grandparents retired

59:14 from 35 years and got the gold watch.

59:17 Company corporations don't show that kind of loyalty

59:20 to people as we saw with Nike.

59:22 Yes.

59:22 So you have to be wired to have some level of flexibility.

59:27 To analyze where am I now?

59:29 Is it time for me to move on?

59:31 And some of that's going to come from what's happening day to day.

59:35 Is there no longer a path,

59:39 way for you that makes you excited in what you're doing?

59:43 You know, there may not be the support in your current activity that gives

59:48 you the signal that maybe it's time for you to do something else.

59:51 Um, so there are many cues in life, but the ability to remain flexible.

59:57 You know, and to be nimble, you know,

1:00:01 just even having a nimble mind in constantly

1:00:04 thinking about your situation and what's coming next.

1:00:09 I think that also helps to prepare you and to give

1:00:14 you the clues to whether it's time to do something else.

1:00:18 This has been great.

1:00:19 You know, it has been, it's like talking to a mirror image without the metal.

1:00:27 Without the medals, but, you know, and the shoe company.

1:00:32 A few other things, I think, yeah.

1:00:35 I think you're doing okay.

1:00:38 This is exciting.

1:00:43 I hope you document the journey.

1:00:46 I know you might want to do it in quiet, but I think the way you train,

1:00:53 the way, you mentally prepare, how you move through life,

1:01:00 just as in She Runs the World.

1:01:03 Mm-hmm.

1:01:03 That is a powerful way to tell a story.

1:01:06 So it is a story that I hope people can

1:01:08 connect with and I hope go through it with me.

1:01:12 Yeah So yeah, I will definitely want to bring everyone in.

1:01:15 Well, we're going to be there with you.

1:01:19 We support you, cheer you both on.

1:01:23 Please keep us in mind, and if you want to come back on to talk

1:01:27 about the journey as you're going through it,

1:01:30 if you wanna scream, yell, shout, we welcome you back any time.

1:01:38 Thank you so much.

1:01:39 And I know nothing about track, but I am a good cheerleader, so strong coach.

1:01:45 Yeah, a coach and all, so yeah.

1:01:47 Yeah, you get that early morning and you just don't feel it.

1:01:50 Just just give us a call I appreciate that.

1:01:52 I will.

1:01:54 Like, telling someone outside of...

1:01:58 You say that.

1:01:59 She just told her mom yesterday.

1:02:01 Oh my.

1:02:03 This is like, this is really...

1:02:05 How does it feel?

1:02:06 It feels like, it feels good.

1:02:08 It feels, it feels like it's something I'm supposed to do.

1:02:12 Like, no matter how it ends up.

1:02:15 I think, you know, Craig, what you said, it's,

1:02:17 it's the journey and it's one I'm excited to take.

1:02:20 I'm a little scared.

1:02:21 But I think that, well,

1:02:24 I hope that it's one that other people also can understand that, you know,

1:02:29 we might be doing different things, but it's the same.

1:02:35 I'm sorry.