How to Build Something Meaningful From Your Worst Chapter (Sarah Jakes Roberts)

0:00 I am so excited to share my debut book with you all,

0:03 Start with Yourself, which is available now.

0:05 You might have seen the headlines, you might have seen the social,

0:08 but this book is exactly what I intended,

0:10 a conversation that will make you think,

0:13 and it's a blueprint for anyone who wants success without the toxic positivity.

0:18 Start with yourself is about self leadership.

0:20 Because wherever I go, women ask me how I got to where I am.

0:24 But what you really want to know is how you can get there.

0:27 So, I'm doing what I do best,

0:29 sharing and never gatekeeping what's worked for me in the hope

0:32 that you can borrow from a philosophy that has served me so well.

0:36 The truth is, I'm not an expert.

0:38 I've just lived it.

0:39 I've made the mistakes.

0:40 I've had the failures.

0:41 And I've learned what actually works.

0:43 It takes a lot.

0:44 It takes the most.

0:45 And this book is for anyone who's tired

0:47 of feeling like a passenger in their own life.

0:50 It's about taking responsibility for your thinking,

0:53 managing your emotions, and getting clear on your ideas.

0:56 and then knowing your next step.

0:59 It's about picking yourself up after failure,

1:01 being accountable, but also forgiving yourself,

1:04 pushing for wins, and never ever apologizing for your ambition.

1:08 It's also about challenging the rules that you've been told.

1:11 There is no perfect time.

1:13 Balance isn't the goal.

1:14 Alignment is, and there's nothing wrong with you wanting more.

1:17 I'm precisely sure that the reason I've been so

1:20 successful is so I can share it with you.

1:22 Start with yourself.

1:23 My debut book is available now.

1:25 Visit emigrid.com to purchase the book.

1:28 Also available on Amazon, your favorite audio platforms, and all good bookshops.

1:33 Me sharing my voice on a platform, then me trying to start a business.

1:37 If it doesn't work, it won't kill me

1:39 because that was literally designed to kill me.

1:42 Sarah Jakes Roberts went from teen mom to New York Times bestselling author.

1:47 She's a pastor and the force behind Women Evolve.

1:50 I realized that being able to put into words

1:52 what other people are feeling is a gift.

1:54 When we see somebody like you that had the start

1:57 that you did and then made the choices that you did,

2:00 that is so unbelievably inspiring.

2:04 But before the success was a woman who had to fight

2:06 her way through the belief that she was undeserving of happiness.

2:10 I live with the belief that you are a bad girl.

2:13 You're dumb, you're stupid, you're nasty.

2:16 Women in general are not allowed to be angry.

2:19 The reframing of anger is a very, very useful tool.

2:24 This is a conversation about how you can become greater than your worst moment.

2:28 What do you say to someone who thinks

2:30 that where they're at is going to define them forever?

2:34 Wait, we're going there.

2:36 Emma, please.

2:48 Sarah, I am so happy to have you here today.

2:50 I'm so excited.

2:52 Thank you for having me.

2:53 Now, welcome to Aspire.

2:54 I I tell you, I have been thinking about this conversation since you and I had

2:58 the opportunity to sit down and you gave me

3:01 the most beautiful introduction to my own book press.

3:05 You were the first person to interview me about my own book and um it was

3:09 so satisfying to know a that somebody had

3:12 really read it because you had really read it.

3:15 You had really read it, girl.

3:17 um but also the amazing feedback that you gave me and one

3:21 of the key things that I talk about in that book is

3:24 that in order for you to have meaningful success you have

3:27 to take radical responsibility for your life and when I think about you

3:31 and what your life and your career has really embodied it's exactly

3:36 that taking responsibility for yourself you have had such an amazing it's

3:40 like a movie when I read your life you know it's like

3:43 you became a mother as a teenager you then kind of, you know,

3:48 went out and started, you know,

3:50 discovering the world and doing everything that you did.

3:52 You dropped out of college.

3:54 You were waitressing as a teenager.

3:56 And it feels to me like there there was this kind of moment,

3:59 this opportunity that you had to truly start

4:02 with yourself and you began writing about your pain.

4:05 You kind of built this platform and now I look at you,

4:09 you're running a global empire,

4:12 you're doing so much and you're also leading a mega church.

4:15 And I guess my question to you from the beginning has to be

4:18 like I wonder if as you were going through all of that stuff,

4:22 all of that tumultuous time, if you could see and if you understood

4:26 that there was something bigger on the other side.

4:29 I don't know if I thought that there was something bigger on the other side

4:33 as much as I felt like I could be bigger than the moment I was standing in.

4:36 I am not one of those people who looked at their lives

4:39 and like one day I'm going to speak to millions of people.

4:41 I'm going to write books.

4:42 I've always just kind of taken whatever

4:44 the next available step was in front of me.

4:47 And I was walking out of the CPS office, which is child protective services,

4:51 which is a long story that I will save for another time.

4:54 But I just thought one thing to myself and it was I can do better than this.

4:58 I can do better than this.

4:59 And I that has been my mentality that I'm always kind of chasing.

5:02 What does better look like from here?

5:04 So what did you think you would do as a kid?

5:06 You must have had like hopes and dreams and you

5:09 know why I was dreaming of being a fashion designer.

5:12 What was it for you not to be a pastor?

5:15 That was nowhere.

5:16 I was literally about to say, did you imagine your father?

5:19 I looked at that.

5:19 I was like, we're going the opposite direction.

5:22 Uh I think at one point I wanted to be a doctor.

5:25 After I had my son, I just wanted stability.

5:27 And by the time I dropped out of school,

5:30 I felt well at first I was going to go and be an accountant,

5:32 but then there was this one math class I couldn't pass.

5:35 And I was like, well then I just need stability.

5:36 I have a child to take care of.

5:37 And I thought if I could become an administrative assistant,

5:40 I could support someone else's work and I could have stability for my son,

5:44 maybe room for some growth.

5:46 And I was that's literally all I wanted to be.

5:48 So you never thought I'm going to be,

5:50 you know, leading 30,000 people every weekend.

5:53 Absolutely not.

5:54 No.

5:56 No.

5:55 And now that I still have to like invite my previous versions of myself

6:00 into this moment to realize like this is the moment that I'm living in.

6:03 Oprah said once that she's living God's dream

6:05 for her life and I feel like that's very much

6:07 so my reality is that I'm living out

6:09 a dream that I could have never had for myself.

6:12 What was the decision for you that you weren't going

6:14 to let like hard moments in your life define your future?

6:19 I had to let them define my present first.

6:21 I think that sounds easy like I'm not going to let

6:24 these hard moments define me for the rest of my life.

6:27 And sometimes that's an instant click for people.

6:29 But then there are people like me who live in the result of letting

6:33 those hard decisions define them where they come to a place where they're like,

6:36 I don't like the results.

6:38 I did not like who I was when I looked in the mirror.

6:41 I just didn't I just didn't like her.

6:43 It started, of course,

6:44 when I was a pregnant teenager and I was so ashamed of myself.

6:48 I'd look in the mirror and I would think the worst thoughts about myself.

6:51 And then as my choices continued to reflect that poor self-belief,

6:56 I just didn't like who I was and I began c became curious

7:00 about whether or not there was any way that I could love myself.

7:04 And I started like just taking little pieces of myself that I like.

7:07 Well, I like this about me and I like that about me.

7:09 And that was the journey of me falling in love with myself.

7:12 And from that place,

7:14 I began to fall in love with the world around me

7:16 and other people and experiences and opportunities and things began to change.

7:20 How did you decide to start speaking

7:23 and thinking about yourself and your own identity differently?

7:27 Probably.

7:28 Now, this is where me growing up in a faith household, I think,

7:31 really began to take form for me is because

7:34 they kept talking about faith and God and you know,

7:37 he loves you and all this stuff.

7:38 And I just didn't believe it.

7:39 I just it couldn't be possible.

7:41 How could God love me and I don't love myself?

7:43 And the people who I trusted have turned their back

7:45 on me and friends don't believe in me anymore.

7:48 And so I I think by faith begin to say like if God is real, if this is possible,

7:53 I want to imagine what kind of life

7:55 I could have if I really believe these things.

7:58 And it was me living out that life that I began

8:02 to to see a shift and a change take place within me.

8:04 But I think a lot of people were disappointed in me when I got pregnant.

8:08 I think they were like,

8:09 you could maybe possibly recover if you don't make any more poor choices.

8:13 But then I kept making poor choices.

8:14 So then I was like, we might as well have fun while we're making poor choices.

8:17 And so, um, I had to make some subtle changes before I saw a sudden shift.

8:22 I mean, what's so interesting to me is while all of this is

8:25 going on, it's against the background of you being a mother, right?

8:28 And then you get married at 19 years of age

8:31 and you start to put out all of what's happening to you.

8:35 You start blogging basically because it was blogging back then, right?

8:38 You weren't an influencer.

8:39 You were blogging.

8:40 And I wonder what made you actually decide to put what was happening

8:43 in your life and all of that mess like out on the internet.

8:46 It was just stuck inside of me.

8:48 Like I started liking the fact that I was angry.

8:50 I think it's because I wasn't feeling anything at all

8:53 that to even feel anger made me feel alive.

8:55 It made me feel like a person.

8:57 Unless you've been there, it's really hard to understand for someone.

9:00 But yeah, it just it made me feel alive to feel angry.

9:03 And I felt like, okay, this probably isn't healthy.

9:06 Um, and I was in my first marriage and we

9:09 were going through a a terrible situation which there was

9:12 an alleged pregnancy by someone else and I started I

9:16 started really having some unhealthy thoughts and I I knew

9:20 Emma I knew I was headed to prison cuz

9:22 listen like I preach now and I get dressed up

9:25 and I may not give what I was ready to give

9:28 back then but I was ready to give jail time.

9:32 I just was and I was like okay I got to make because you were that angry.

9:35 I was so upset, but but I had to realize like I was upset with him,

9:39 but more than anyone, I was upset with myself.

9:42 And I feel like what I wanted was someone to channel that anger towards.

9:47 And he gave me a reason to channel that an anger towards him and her or anyone.

9:53 And um I got to a place where I had to let it out.

9:55 So I was writing it was really just for me cuz I wanted to get it out of me.

9:59 Then I realized I would like close the blog with like, you know,

10:02 if I were someone's friend, what would I say to someone in this situation?

10:05 And it what was a conversation between me

10:07 and maybe the highest version of myself became

10:10 this conversation that I started having with thousands

10:12 and then millions of women who were in similar situations.

10:15 I want to just double down on the anger piece

10:17 for a second because it's an emotion that throughout my life,

10:21 I've always been very attuned to my anger, shall we say?

10:24 There was a time when I think I was really led by that emotion and as I've

10:29 got older I've been able to train myself

10:31 and understand it a lot more and channel it.

10:33 I wonder if there is any part of the anger that serves you now.

10:37 Like do you find any channel or any use

10:40 for it in your in your work and your life now?

10:43 That's a great question.

10:44 I think so.

10:45 I think I get angry now with systems of oppression.

10:48 I get angry at and that fuels you.

10:51 It does.

10:51 It makes me want to dismantle them.

10:53 But at the time, I couldn't channel it that way.

10:55 But I think also just women in general are not allowed to be angry.

10:59 And because we were not allowed to be angry,

11:01 I thought I had to suppress it, suppress it, suppress it.

11:03 And so there would be these moments of explosion that seemed like it

11:07 was just about that one thing in front of me, but it wasn't.

11:09 It was about all of the other things that I had to stuff down.

11:12 Yeah, I I really can resonate with that.

11:15 I actually think that for a lot of women, the reframing of anger is a very,

11:20 very useful tool because it can be one

11:22 of those emotions that really allows you to get stuff done.

11:25 People talk about being people pleasers all the time, and I'm thinking,

11:28 are we people pleasers or are we manipulating

11:30 people into believing that it's easy to love

11:32 us and that we won't cause any issues and we're just so easy to get along with?

11:36 When in reality, there are things that offend us.

11:38 There are things that upset us.

11:39 But because I feel like I'm not allowed to tell you

11:41 because I want to be nice and I want to be sweet,

11:43 I often end up building relationships that don't have the roots to really

11:48 um withstand what it means to be in relationship with my authenticity.

11:52 Honestly, when I think about my book and how much time

11:55 I spent around this idea of people pleasing and anger and how

12:00 actually one leads to the other cuz when you're constantly running

12:03 your agenda on what you think is going to please other people,

12:06 you get way off track and way off course.

12:08 Sarah, what was so unbelievable is that your blog went

12:11 from zero to a million viewers in less than 3 months.

12:15 Can you take me back to that moment?

12:17 Because when I look at you and look at the platform that you had now,

12:21 that must have been like an early signal that you were like,

12:23 "One second, I have something like I have something not not my family,

12:27 not where I come from.

12:28 This is like this is me.

12:29 I'm putting my information out there and it's really resonating." It was crazy,

12:33 especially like my father has a a famous last name,

12:36 but I wasn't writing under my maiden name.

12:38 I was still married at the time.

12:40 And so, I think it really spoke to the fact

12:41 that I was telling this story that other women could resonate with.

12:45 And as much as it was a sign to me that I had something cuz listen,

12:49 I grew up in church where like if you can't sing,

12:51 you can't dance, you can't pray, then like you don't have any talents.

12:54 And so, I didn't know that writing could be a gift,

12:57 but I realized that being able to put

12:59 into words what other people are feeling is a gift.

13:02 And so I thought, okay,

13:03 so this is a blog and people are in search of words and meaning.

13:06 That felt um nice, but also scary.

13:08 I'm naturally introverted.

13:10 And so this idea of like, wait a minute, guys,

13:12 this is my diary and now you guys are all watching.

13:15 I think I felt like a sense of responsibility and a sense of maybe urgency

13:20 to get to a place of healing and not

13:22 just unpacking and unloading without leading people somewhere.

13:25 you know, when I look at the sort

13:27 of broadness of your work from from what you do

13:30 in the church to what you do with your women's

13:32 conference to these unbelievably successful books that you've had.

13:35 And so I wonder what you're hearing from women now.

13:39 Like what has changed from when you first started to where you are now?

13:43 And do you hear the same things?

13:46 Sometimes I hear echoes of the same things.

13:48 I I feel like the universal thread between all

13:50 of those different types of women is that some of us

13:53 in some way are trying to figure out what happened

13:55 to us and how it's showing up in our present.

13:58 And that's for the woman in the boardroom

14:00 and that's for the little girl in a detention center.

14:02 What happened to me and how is it showing up in the choices that I make now?

14:06 And so I still see that thread in many of the things that I do.

14:10 But what I feel exists now that didn't exist

14:12 when I first started is that I do believe

14:14 that women feel more empowered to lay hold

14:17 of possibilities that perhaps didn't exist a few years ago.

14:20 I think with the rise of social media and technology

14:24 that possibilities are more at our fingertips than before.

14:27 And I believe that seeing other women because

14:29 of social media who maybe have similar backgrounds and backdrops

14:33 have given people who are in limiting circumstances

14:37 or who are wondering what their pathways can look like.

14:39 It's given them hope and possibility that there's a path for girls

14:42 like me and women like me to have children and have

14:45 the business or to go from a place of being in incarceration

14:49 to starting a business like I feel like the possibilities are more exposed.

14:54 And I believe that that's given women a lot of hope.

14:56 Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

14:57 And I feel like when we see somebody like

14:59 you that had the start that you did and then

15:02 made the choices that you did and then has

15:04 come through and is doing what you do now,

15:06 like that is so unbelievably inspiring for so many young women.

15:12 I wonder if there's something, you know,

15:14 you and I spoke about this a little bit when we first met,

15:16 and because my book is kind of largely

15:18 structured around this idea of thoughts that exist,

15:21 these kind of old thoughts that you keep with you and there being

15:25 this other idea of what is possible and how you should think now.

15:29 Do you think that you were plagued by old

15:32 thoughts and things that had happened to you

15:34 when you were younger and that they show up in your life and your business now?

15:39 O yes, girl.

15:41 Just wait.

15:42 We going to therapy.

15:43 Emma, let's do it.

15:44 Emma, please.

15:45 Please, can we take a minute?

15:48 It's only question five.

15:51 For sure.

15:52 Okay.

15:53 So, I think to properly frame this though, I am 37 now.

15:58 To go back to that age at 13 years old, man, I have a 16-year-old daughter.

16:02 I realize how identity shifting that is.

16:06 Um, a baby, having a baby.

16:08 Now, there's all kinds of trauma.

16:09 I deal with a lot of women who have experienced molestation.

16:13 They've been abused.

16:14 They've been raped.

16:14 So, a lot of women carrying different types

16:17 of wounds from uh early childhood or adolescence.

16:20 Um but a baby, you've got evidence on your hip.

16:24 Oh.

16:24 And when you've got Yeah.

16:26 You just made me go so cold.

16:27 When you've got evidence on your

16:30 whether you're at the grocery store or you're at church,

16:34 people are looking at you trying to do the math.

16:37 And so I lived with the belief that you are a bad girl.

16:42 Um people would look at you and there's pity and there's

16:47 shame and you begin to believe there's something wrong with me.

16:51 And you know people, you know how babies come, right?

16:54 So you have sex, you get pregnant.

16:56 Like the math is there.

16:57 And so now I'm like, you're also stupid because how did you let this happen?

17:01 And that's all I ate for years as it relates to identity and self-esteem.

17:07 You're dumb.

17:08 You're stupid.

17:09 You're nasty.

17:10 Like over and over again.

17:12 Over and over again.

17:14 So, how does that show up in my present?

17:16 Now, though I've done the work

17:18 and the healing and the praying and the meditating,

17:20 I think there are still moments where I wonder like,

17:23 are you really good enough for this moment?

17:26 I would rather not do it at all than to risk disappointing people.

17:31 But when I overcome those feelings of self-doubt

17:35 and of just not believing in myself,

17:38 there's this other flip side of it where it's like you

17:42 kind of already taking some of the biggest L's you could take.

17:45 So like if a podcast flops, it's not going to break you.

17:48 You know what I mean?

17:49 Like when you have hit rock bottom,

17:53 there is this temptation to stay there so

17:55 that you never have to experience the collision again.

17:59 Or there is this belief that you can tap into that says if

18:03 this is truly as low as it can get whether it's a teen pregnancy,

18:07 it's grief, it's addiction, if this is the lowest it can get than

18:12 me sharing my voice on a platform than me trying

18:15 to start a business if it doesn't work it won't

18:17 kill me because that was literally designed to kill me.

18:21 There are very few people who can say they've

18:23 gone through things that were literally designed to kill them.

18:27 And if you manage to survive those things,

18:30 I believe you owe it to your survival to dare to live again.

18:34 And that living again can be big and bold where you're doing something that has

18:38 a huge platform or it could be the smallest thing of waking up this morning,

18:42 taking a shower, going outside and seeing what's happening in the world,

18:46 but you owe it to yourself to try to live again.

18:49 I I mean, it's so beautifully said and so

18:52 beautifully put the way you think about it.

18:54 And I think for anybody that is listening to this because to a degree

18:59 we all have to overcome shame in some way, shape or form.

19:03 And it's one of the hardest things to deal with.

19:06 But actually the way that you frame it and the way that you

19:10 I guess have taken unbelievable and radical responsibility for it.

19:15 That's what's really inspiring to me.

19:17 What I seek to do is to help women understand like I'm just bait.

19:20 Like maybe you've heard one of my messages, read one of my books,

19:23 and you're here because you know who I am.

19:25 But the most important person in this room

19:26 is the person who's sitting beside you.

19:28 And we are intentional about creating connection because shame is isolating,

19:33 doubt is isolating, worry is isolating.

19:36 What I found out when I started blogging is that I wasn't by myself.

19:40 H there was this tunnel that I was living in that made me

19:43 believe that I was the only one who had ever felt discarded,

19:46 the only one who had ever felt damaged

19:48 and that there was something wrong with me.

19:50 Man, I owe as much to Woman Evolve as the women who I've been able to serve say

19:55 that they owe to me because they helped me to see that I wasn't in it on my own.

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21:28 Does imposttor syndrome or any of the kind of underbelly

21:32 of that shame does that ever show up for you anywhere?

21:35 Because when you're standing on a stage in front

21:38 of thousands of people on a Sunday morning,

21:40 I guess there has to be like, you know,

21:43 every now and again like some kind of self-doubt that creeps up.

21:46 I feel no need to try and talk myself out of being an imposttor.

21:49 There are parts of me that have no business standing where I am.

21:52 I know where I've come from.

21:54 I know what I've gone through.

21:55 I know that there are people who are more eloquent, people who are more studied,

21:58 people who on paper would be a better fit for the things that I do,

22:02 but I'm the one here.

22:03 And because I'm the one here,

22:04 I'm going to step into the moment with everything I have or don't have.

22:07 God makes up the difference for me.

22:09 And it's an offering.

22:10 My life is an offering.

22:11 I'm not here to prove anything to anyone.

22:13 I am already so much further than I ever thought

22:16 that I would be that like maybe I shouldn't be up here,

22:18 but since I'm the one who's got the mic right now,

22:20 I'm going to serve the moment well until whoever's

22:23 supposed to be here finally makes it here on time.

22:25 Until then, this is going to be the moment

22:27 that I stand up to whatever is in front of me.

22:29 So, talk to me if you are somebody sitting at home

22:33 right now that is in the the worst moment of their life.

22:38 They're in the middle of the worst chapter.

22:40 Knowing what you know and doing what you've done,

22:43 what do you say to them right now?

22:45 To someone who thinks that where they're at is going to define them for forever.

22:50 I think that if you're in a season right now where

22:53 you feel like this moment is going to define me forever,

22:56 I think that you should figure out how it is defining you now,

23:00 that you should study that definition and then

23:03 see where you want to make edits and amendments.

23:06 I think sometimes the resistance of letting it define us has more

23:10 stress than just embracing that this is now a part of my identity.

23:14 This is a part of who I am now.

23:16 I spent so long trying to not be a teen mom with a baby on my head.

23:20 You know, trying to not be the girl who went

23:22 through the divorce while going through the divorce because I

23:25 felt like I don't want to be who other people

23:27 think I am because of what has happened to me.

23:29 But this is a part of my truth and so I have to embrace it and I have to let it

23:34 change me and then I have to figure out who do

23:36 I want to become based off of what I have left.

23:39 And part of my belief is that there

23:42 are things that can be made out of leftovers.

23:44 Listen, my parents grew up on government cheese.

23:46 Okay?

23:47 I was raised, my parents were on welfare.

23:50 We know a thing or two about taking

23:52 what looks like leftovers and making incredible meals.

23:55 It's it's ingra it's in the culture of how I've grown up.

23:59 I think the same thing applies to our life experiences.

24:01 We may have nothing but broken pieces left.

24:04 And we can look at that and think to ourselves,

24:06 there's nothing that can be made out of these broken pieces.

24:09 Or we can dare to believe that there is

24:11 a mosaic that maybe has never been seen before.

24:14 Maybe that we could not create in our own imagination,

24:16 but that they really can all work together to produce

24:19 something that looks like good and looks like God.

24:22 I love that reframing that the worst moments, your worst season,

24:28 the worst things that happen to you are actually all meaningful in whatever

24:33 it is that you're going to do and you're going to become.

24:35 And actually accepting that and embracing it and actually

24:39 imagining that actually there's something unique and beautiful and becoming

24:44 and useful in all of those broken pieces that you

24:48 could put it together and see a new version of yourself.

24:51 Like that's super helpful because I think that's reality.

24:54 These broken pieces have meaning.

24:55 It's just a matter of who's going to find them most valuable.

24:58 And it may not be the rooms full of 40,000 people.

25:01 It may be that room with that one person.

25:03 And so those broken pieces, they do have value.

25:06 And I I think I've been fortunate that um you know,

25:09 my influence has allowed me to let those broken

25:11 pieces shine before millions and shine before one.

25:15 And yet there's been meaning in in each of those scenarios.

25:18 So, so let's talk a little bit about

25:19 the business because you for sure are a businesswoman.

25:24 You are doing, you know, you're selling out arenas,

25:27 you're selling books, you have a platform,

25:30 you have so many avenues to your business and so

25:34 many tentacles to what it is that you're building.

25:36 talk to me about how this ecosystem comes together because I

25:40 think so many people that are listening right now will think,

25:42 you know, how do I monetize and develop my skill?

25:47 And sitting right here is somebody who's done exactly that kind of over

25:51 and over and over again in various

25:52 different verticals and you're very successful.

25:54 So I I almost want you to frame up what it is that you do

25:58 for anyone who doesn't know and then let's

25:59 talk let's talk about this business that you've got.

26:02 So you know I started as an entrepreneur.

26:04 I'm speaking and I'm writing.

26:05 So, of course, I'm I'm getting paid to write books and then

26:08 I go out and I speak and it was pretty much just me.

26:10 And the books come from the blog, right?

26:12 It's like you had the blog and then it was like

26:14 publisher approaches me and says, "Hey, you've got this blog.

26:17 Do you want to share your story?" I'm like, "Sure, that's fine." And like,

26:20 I didn't even know that you could like get paid for writing.

26:23 And so, I'm like, "Okay, this is great." You know, I'll share my story.

26:26 And then I began to speak and I'd get invitations.

26:28 And so, I'm just facilitating the business of me

26:31 at that point and being able to like set goals for myself.

26:34 And so I think this is just going to be me.

26:37 But then I have this idea for a conference.

26:39 And I'm thinking to myself, I didn't really want to have a conference

26:42 just because I had a popular speaking voice.

26:44 I really wanted to have a message that I

26:46 felt like you could build a a movement on.

26:49 And for me, that came from studying Eve in the Bible, which like girl, you know,

26:53 you may not be a Bible thumper, but let me tell you, Eve get a bad rep.

26:56 Everyone knows that whether they're a Bible thumper or not.

26:58 I love a girl who knows better, but didn't do better.

27:00 And I love a guy that'll meet her in the midst of it all.

27:02 And so, Woman Evolve was this ode to Eve for all women who knew better

27:06 but haven't always done better but wanted

27:08 to believe that better could still exist for them.

27:10 So, I'm going to host a conference and I

27:12 realized that in order to host this conference,

27:14 I'm going to need to bring in lights.

27:15 I'm going to need to bring in cameras.

27:16 I'm going to need to bring in speakers.

27:17 And so, there's a registration fee for the conference.

27:19 When I start seeing this money hit my account,

27:21 I realize, wait a minute, this is a business.

27:24 Like, we're not just vibing.

27:25 We're not just having ideas.

27:26 You're not just signing books.

27:28 This is a legitimate business.

27:29 People are investing their money and I have a responsibility

27:32 to be a good steward over the money that's coming in.

27:35 As I launched the podcast, I realized that I am having to engage

27:38 with other businesses for something that just felt like,

27:41 oh, a passionate pursuit.

27:43 So, I was thrust into business as a result of me pursuing my passion.

27:47 Business is not at the forefront of my mind.

27:49 That's why I'm grateful that I have my husband

27:51 who is more of a natural business person than I

27:54 am because I've had this tutor that's been able

27:56 to help me as I begin to see things grow.

27:58 Right.

27:59 So now we've gone from a few thousand to millions of dollars coming

28:02 in in revenue and millions of dollars going out as a result of expenses.

28:06 I realize that we're going to have to be

28:07 very intentional about what is our long-term goal and strategy.

28:11 So of course we want to have the conferences and events,

28:13 but what is the legacy we want to leave?

28:15 Well, how do we want to continue to attract incredible talent to make

28:18 sure that we're amplifying in some of the most powerful ways possible?

28:22 And that requires resources.

28:24 And so what does it look like?

28:25 I'm curious to understand like the personas, right?

28:29 Cuz it's like you have this one side of you

28:31 that is very like outward- facing and you're on stage and you're,

28:36 you know, sharing your message, but there has to be another side

28:39 of you who's like leading the business and working

28:42 on that side of things when it comes to your book deals and the, as you say,

28:47 the strategy of what you're building this media empire.

28:50 What do those two versions of Sarah look like?

28:53 Well, you know, I'm probably more from my heart when speaking

28:57 and more from my mind when doing the business side of things.

29:00 Are you equally comfortable in both?

29:05 Yes.

29:05 Yes.

29:05 Um if if there is more discomfort on one side,

29:08 it's probably more the heart side because I'm

29:10 introverted and I don't necessarily I don't like speaking.

29:12 I just been through a lot and then you're exposing yourself to so many people.

29:16 So, I am protective.

29:17 But I do on the on the mind side of things, on the business side,

29:20 I had to become intentional because nobody knows what this is but me.

29:24 And people can come in and they can project their ideas of what it can become,

29:27 but it's going to take it away from what I know it's supposed to be in my core.

29:31 And I have to answer to for what I did with this influence,

29:34 for what I did with this call, for what I did with this purpose.

29:36 Are you the driver of it?

29:38 Are you the driver of the strategy and what you want it to be?

29:41 I feel like I know what it is.

29:43 I feel like I I there it's hard to explain.

29:45 And I have a sense for what Woman Evolve is

29:48 supposed to be and how it resonates with those people,

29:51 but I don't always have the talent or the skill

29:54 set to translate what I feel into meaningful impact.

29:58 That's interesting.

29:59 What do you mean by that?

30:00 You don't have the talent and skill.

30:01 I love to hear people talk about what they don't

30:03 have because everybody always talks about what they do have.

30:05 So my husband on the business side of things when we started bringing in larger

30:08 contracts I knew where the limits needed

30:11 to be but I didn't know how to communicate

30:12 that to partners in a way that still honored the fact that we wanted to be

30:16 in relationship but also created some strong boundaries

30:18 and so I I depended on him for that.

30:21 Um my friend Jason is an incredible visual director.

30:24 I know what it I want it to feel like when the women come into the room.

30:27 They need to feel fun.

30:28 They need to feel love.

30:29 They need to feel the theme really infiltrate everything that they touch.

30:33 he can execute that in a way that I can't.

30:36 So I see myself as someone who understands

30:38 the vision of what it's supposed to be,

30:40 how it's supposed to show up, but the actual execution of it.

30:42 I don't necessarily have the gifts and talents to do that in some arenas.

30:46 Also, I would just think about you as an excellent

30:48 CEO and leader because and and here's one

30:51 of the things that I love to talk about all

30:53 the time that as a woman in a leadership position,

30:56 we always envisage that we need to have the answers to absolutely everything.

30:59 you need to be the best and actually you need to be

31:03 great at what you're find to do and execute the rest.

31:08 What you are is just an excellent leader.

31:10 You're an excellent CEO.

31:11 Doesn't mean to say you need to be, you know, you don't need to do the books.

31:15 You don't need to do the finances.

31:16 You don't need to do the vial.

31:17 You need to have the vision and tell everybody where to go.

31:21 Well, thank you.

31:22 I want to create space for the best to be the best.

31:25 And so my goal is to attract the type of environment and culture

31:31 that makes it easy for people who have a gift and a talent

31:34 to come in and to be able to really expand it and magnify it

31:38 in a way that is ultimately meaningful for the women we get to serve.

31:41 Do you have lessons in leadership that you um

31:46 you feel like over the years like what has changed

31:49 in your style of leadership and how you come

31:51 into the kind of business of what it is that you do?

31:54 For sure.

31:54 Sure.

31:55 I think when I first started,

31:56 I would just take whatever came my way and whatever people said I should do.

31:59 And I was finding myself like overwhelmed and not

32:02 really being clear about my message, my brand,

32:05 my desire to show up in the world, um,

32:08 as directed by what I believe my sense of calling is.

32:11 And now I feel more agency,

32:14 more of a a sense of ownership to say what I will do, what I won't do.

32:18 And I think one of the greatest things that I've learned

32:19 as a as a leader is to not apologize for what I don't know.

32:23 I think that there's this temptation

32:25 when you're finished like accepting whatever comes your way that now I'm going

32:28 to overcompensate and know everything and do everything.

32:31 And I feel like I have found the way to balance like this I'm really strong in.

32:35 I know this for sure.

32:36 I know that for sure.

32:37 And the things that I don't know I don't mind not knowing

32:40 because it doesn't change who I am in the equation of things.

32:43 And I don't have to know something that I don't know.

32:45 My father taught me.

32:46 He's like you only don't know once.

32:48 So, if you're ever in a room and someone's talking

32:49 about something you don't know or something you don't understand.

32:52 If you ask, you only don't know once and then

32:54 from there you're able to add to your knowledge.

32:56 That's some good advice.

32:57 Isn't that great?

32:58 That's such good.

32:59 He should do something with his life.

33:02 He should do something over there.

33:04 Um, I wanted to ask you because I feel like authenticity

33:08 is such a key driver of what it is that you do.

33:11 Like, it's so clear what you stand for, who you are.

33:15 It kind of runs through everything.

33:16 How do you protect that authenticity so that your audience still

33:20 feel the reasons that they came to you in the first place?

33:24 Well, I think one thing is I have

33:25 to be willing to walk away from any and everything.

33:29 I think that's the biggest thing is to not need, you know, success is weird.

33:34 Um because the definition is always changing, right?

33:37 So for me, you got to remember my first form

33:39 of success was like if I could be an administrative assistant,

33:41 if I could just publish one blog and then you

33:43 do that thing and then the bar for success keeps moving.

33:46 The only problem with that is sometimes we're not moving the bar.

33:49 Sometimes other people are.

33:50 And so part of me is staying authentic to what

33:53 it is I'm called to do is making sure

33:54 that I'm never signing up for something that means

33:57 more to me than the women I get to serve.

34:00 Yeah.

33:59 I want to talk to you about money, my favorite subject.

34:02 Um, so you grew up in, as you say, um, a house of faith.

34:07 Yes.

34:07 And I guess that that would have given you

34:09 a very specific relationship with money and I just

34:12 wondered how it shaped your idea of money

34:15 and how you think about wealth and earning money now.

34:19 My father is more of the variety of like I have money, you don't.

34:24 So even Oh.

34:26 Oh yeah.

34:26 That don't have nothing to do with you.

34:29 Um, so you know, like I said,

34:30 I was my parents were on government assistant once assistance when

34:33 I was born and so I've seen their life grow and evolve,

34:35 but I think like a lot of families um and cultures like my my parents were so

34:39 busy surviving and trying to make the money

34:41 that they didn't have time to talk about it.

34:44 Um, so we didn't have a lot of conversations about finances.

34:48 Um, my father would be on don't ask me to borrow any

34:52 if you have already spent the money that you had from your paycheck.

34:55 Um, so I feel like we we learned a lot

34:57 of things on our own or just by watching them.

35:00 And so I've had to um manage my relationship with money

35:04 from a sense of like if I don't talk about it,

35:07 then I'm not going to be able to negotiate for what I need

35:10 in this moment or to uh get what I need the truth from other people.

35:15 That's the other thing about being in a position.

35:16 And I think I this may be true in every field,

35:19 but I think when you're in a position of faith,

35:21 like people want to offer you something in exchange

35:24 for what you've maybe done in their lives with your messages.

35:27 And I want to know what it costs for real because, you know, gifts are nice,

35:32 but I want to know what it would really cost

35:33 for me to put this CVN on if you weren't here.

35:36 And so I've had to have some intentional conversation with people about like,

35:39 give me a realistic view of what this cost so

35:41 that I can plan for longevity and not just for this season.

35:45 Yeah.

35:45 No, I really understand that.

35:46 Has there ever been any conflict in you

35:49 about essentially making money from a faith connected business?

35:53 For sure.

35:54 Um I think one even though like when

35:56 you're writing books the resources come from the publisher,

36:00 there's this fine line of wanting to make sure that my ancillary businesses

36:04 which do bring in revenue don't doesn't look like I'm taking it from people.

36:08 And I think that there are some legitimate concerns and legitimate ill practices

36:13 that have taken place that has created

36:14 a distrust between people and faith leaders.

36:17 And so I've constantly tried to position myself in such

36:20 a way that I am able to sustain my life

36:22 and the things that we have going on in our lives

36:25 outside of resources or donations from other people.

36:28 Like I've always tried to make sure that that was a part of what we do.

36:31 Um because I am relying ultimately on the gifts

36:35 and talents that God gave me just like everyone else has.

36:37 and I want to make sure that we're leveraging them with responsibility.

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38:55 I want to talk a little bit about your family life and you

38:58 as a mother because it's such a huge part of who you are.

39:01 When I was doing my research,

39:02 I kind of counted like six kids in a blended family.

39:06 But let's kind of take me back because we know that you were a teenage mom.

39:10 I think your eldest is 23 now, Malachi.

39:14 I mean, the idea of a 23-year-old

39:16 son when you're younger than me is mindblowing.

39:18 Literally.

39:19 Yeah, it really it really is something.

39:21 I just wonder like what he has taught you

39:24 about yourself because obviously you know it's like it's what

39:28 you know motherhood teaches you so much but this particular

39:32 child must have taught you maybe more than the others.

39:35 I don't know.

39:36 Malachi has made me believe that I wasn't as bad as I thought I was.

39:40 Um because I think I spent so much

39:42 of his childhood feeling like I'm just such a terrible person,

39:45 such a terrible mom.

39:46 He deserves so much better.

39:47 I could do so much better.

39:48 but he has some of the most beautiful memories of his childhood.

39:52 Like he text me today he was eating an orange and he's like,

39:54 "This reminds me of when I went to summer

39:55 camp and you packed me this huge lunch.

39:57 I got to feed all of my friends."

39:58 And so even though I felt disconnected and distant,

40:02 he was still getting a part of me that felt like the best part of me.

40:05 Even though I didn't know I was the best the at doing my best,

40:08 which I think is such a message to women who are trying to do it all.

40:13 that in those moments where you're hard

40:15 on yourself because you feel like you're falling short,

40:17 that these children are they're grading us on a curve.

40:21 They're grading us on a curve and they don't know any different.

40:23 And if we can give them the love that we have,

40:26 if we can give them the presence that we have,

40:28 even as we're growing and changing, that it's enough.

40:31 And as we grow, the more that we give them, that'll be enough, too.

40:35 But I I don't think I was as bad as bad

40:37 of a mother as I thought I was as a teenager.

40:40 How does that make you feel?

40:42 Thanks.

40:42 Don't do it, Emma.

40:43 Listen, girl.

40:44 This is our second time talking.

40:45 You're not gonna have me You're not gonna have me crying

40:49 because I just I I understand that.

40:52 Like, I understand living with a feeling of how you assumed it was going to be.

40:58 And almost like that becoming your reality in your head

41:01 because you were like, I had him so young.

41:03 I I am a bad mom.

41:05 This, you know, and and then the idea that he can turn around and say to you,

41:09 I have great memories.

41:10 like that's a big deal.

41:12 I think the idea that as for me,

41:15 the idea that I didn't want to mess it up like so many

41:18 of the choices that I made was because I didn't want to mess him up.

41:20 I didn't want to mess him up.

41:22 I think being driven by that made me show up

41:25 for him in a way that kept me from messing it up.

41:29 And I feel like if it really matters to you,

41:32 even if you don't know what you're doing,

41:34 the fact that you're trying, I think they pick up on the effort.

41:38 Yeah.

41:38 Yeah, they pick up on the trying and I think

41:40 that that can give us consolation as we mother and navigate uncertainty.

41:46 Oh, my kids should be so happy with me that so

41:48 much effort doesn't always work out exactly as I want it to.

41:52 But that the intent I actually think that I don't know if I've ever heard

41:56 anybody say that that your kids will pick up on the effort and the intention,

42:01 which for any mother out there who is just doing her best

42:06 is huge.

42:07 Yeah.

42:08 And I believe that my son's in his 20s,

42:10 but if you think about it, even as we think about our parenting dynamics,

42:14 like the things that we penalize our parents

42:16 for the most is like it's like you you didn't try,

42:19 but then you can tell when they did try, when they were trying,

42:21 they were trying.

42:23 And I think that a lot of times we end up

42:24 with parent ones cuz it feels like you didn't really try.

42:27 Even when your best wasn't enough, we can at least reconcile the fact that, hey,

42:31 at least you gave it your best shot.

42:33 It's the not trying at all that I think leaves us the most wounded.

42:37 Like you could have at least tried.

42:41 Facts.

42:40 Facts.

42:41 The idea that they can actually feel the effort

42:45 and the intention is a really big and really huge takeaway

42:49 that I hope anybody that's listening to this really can

42:52 double down on and understand because if you're doing your best,

42:55 that might be all you have to give.

42:56 That's it.

42:57 That might be it.

42:58 Um, I was interested in your parenting

43:00 philosophy because you've got a lot of children.

43:02 You have like So, you've got your first kid you had as a teenager.

43:06 You then have a second kid.

43:08 You then have three in your current relationship and one that you had together.

43:13 So, I'm counting.

43:14 It's It's a lot of things.

43:15 It's six.

43:16 It's six.

43:17 And with everything going on, have you adopted a specific parenting style,

43:22 parenting philosophy?

43:23 Like what what is happening?

43:25 What does your family look like?

43:26 You know, the way I try to parent and the way I was parented,

43:29 they don't they don't go together.

43:30 Oh, good.

43:31 Because that was my next question.

43:32 Let's talk about that.

43:33 They don't.

43:34 And I had to see.

43:34 And the problem is that I was formed in a form

43:38 of parenting that is so counter to the way that I

43:41 want to parent that I have to remind myself when parenting

43:44 my children to not turn into my parents when parenting them.

43:48 Because my parents, they didn't really care about your feelings.

43:52 You know, they cared that you did what I told you to do.

43:55 And I find myself when my children think I care about their feelings

43:58 and I led them to believe that I cared about their feelings,

44:00 but Emma, sometimes I don't care.

44:02 And that's the problem is they think I care when I don't.

44:04 And so I'm having to create space for their feelings

44:08 while also creating space for my own in this dynamic.

44:12 Just let's pause there for a second because I

44:15 feel like this generational divide is so real, right?

44:19 Let's just be like, never in my life, of my entire childhood,

44:24 did my mother care about my feeling toward a certain situation.

44:30 And I thought they were wrong until I started hearing these feelings.

44:32 And I was like, that's why they didn't care.

44:34 That's why they knew it was a slippery slope.

44:39 And they said, we won't do this.

44:41 We owe the boomers an apology because y'all had it a little right.

44:46 Because now I find myself having to care about things I don't care about.

44:49 So here I am after the longest day known

44:51 to man talking about what happened on the playground.

44:54 Yes.

44:54 Yes.

44:54 Yes.

44:55 And I don't care.

44:56 Absolutely.

44:56 And I don't care that you won't you don't want to do

44:58 your homework and that you don't want to eat these vegetables.

45:00 But you know I'm trying to like you know care in a way that I haven't.

45:04 And um that's interesting.

45:06 My greatest philosophy about parenting beyond like don't let these kids

45:10 kill you and don't let these kids take you out

45:12 is um create space for you to be a person

45:15 in the midst of it all because kids are selfish by nature.

45:20 It's okay.

45:21 The moment they enter the world, everything centers around them.

45:24 But if you do not begin to introduce that you're tired,

45:27 that you have vulnerable moments, that you're afraid sometimes,

45:30 then they will think that you are super human instead

45:33 of just a super good mom or a super good parent.

45:36 And I want them to know that sometimes it costs

45:38 me to show up in the way that I do.

45:41 That I'm not always in a space where I can

45:43 take on everything concerning you that I need time to.

45:46 And so I'm trying to introduce them to who I am as a woman,

45:49 not just who I am as their mother.

45:51 I mean, bravo.

45:52 First of all, you're speaking to the start with yourself lady.

45:55 So, I am Yeah, cuz when I read your book, I was like,

45:58 uh, Emma, you were like the family chapter starts with you.

46:04 I was like, I was like, I don't know if you edit it properly to start family.

46:09 I learned a lot.

46:10 No, your book, it really helped me tremendously with business and with family.

46:13 Well, I'm so happy that you say that and I think it's a really important point

46:17 that you make because if you don't reinforce

46:19 the idea that you are something other than a mother,

46:22 you kind of set your entire family up

46:24 to see you but nothing other than a mother, right?

46:28 And so you have to kind of take responsibility for that too.

46:30 And I feel like so many of us make ourselves indispensable to our family.

46:35 We make our households incapable of running without us.

46:39 And then we wonder why everybody's looking to us to do everything.

46:42 And so I think that when I think about start with yourself,

46:45 it's that you know what,

46:46 everybody in this house can pick things up from the floor

46:50 and everybody can make a dinner and everybody can contribute.

46:54 And so the idea that the mother is going

46:57 to just be there to constantly service the needs

47:00 of everybody really dissipates when you've taught everyone

47:03 that that's not how it is from the get-go.

47:05 And so I think that there is so much that I always want to do,

47:09 but I don't need everybody else to want me to do it too.

47:13 So for me, it's just about being really honest about,

47:16 you know, everybody contributes to this.

47:18 It's not like mom number one and then, you know, like a a bunch of children.

47:21 It's just not how it works.

47:23 That's my first sign that I need to make a pivot

47:26 with that my life has gotten imbalanced is when my children

47:30 start asking me to do things that is perfect perfectly reasonable

47:34 for them to ask me to do but that irritates me.

47:37 So, like if they start asking me what's for dinner, I know that like,

47:39 okay, I've moved into this space where I'm allowing like everyone to rely on me.

47:44 So much so that when they ask me a simple question like what's for dinner,

47:47 I'm annoyed and irritated.

47:49 I got to get a drink, get a snack.

47:51 I'm like, yeah, wait a minute.

47:53 You know what I mean?

47:53 And so allowing them to like, you know, I'm like, I need help.

47:56 I need support or we're going to have to Yes.

47:58 I have to reorient them.

48:00 Yes.

48:00 But, you know, I think the other thing is a lot of times,

48:02 now this is going to be deep.

48:03 Are you ready?

48:04 I think that when we have had moments like I've

48:07 had where we have struggled with self-esteem and low selfworth,

48:11 it is affirming that the world only spins if we're in the center of it.

48:16 And it can be edifying for us that everyone needs us.

48:19 It makes us feel valued.

48:21 It makes us maybe stressed and all of those things too,

48:24 but we kind of like that this world would fall apart if I wasn't in it.

48:27 And I do think that there is a need for us

48:29 to desenter ourselves and to not need the world to revolve around us.

48:34 If we're really going to experience the type

48:36 of liberation that allows them to one, grow up and be self-sufficient,

48:40 but also for us to be affirmed outside of what we do for other people,

48:43 we have to remove the need for other people to to center themselves around us.

48:48 I mean, a million%.

48:49 And not only that, but the ability for you

48:52 to be able to meet yourself in the highest possible way.

48:57 You need to not be dragged down by all

48:59 of this stuff that everybody else can help with.

49:01 Right?

49:02 So, it's like the two things are we have

49:04 to remove our ego from any of that situation

49:08 and really understand like what what is the goal not

49:10 just for me but for the entirety of our family.

49:13 Like that's a really key thing.

49:15 I want everybody to feel like they have a position and a job

49:20 and a role in this family and I don't want to have to carry that.

49:23 God forbid if anything ever happened to me, I always think like I want my kids

49:28 and my husband to feel like they understand like what is

49:33 required that they are part of like what has built

49:35 this and that it doesn't live and fall with me.

49:38 For sure.

49:38 I always try to have a level of honesty about

49:42 the things that I am not doing because when you work

49:46 as much as you do and you have all of those kids

49:48 like something gives and I talk about trade-offs all the time.

49:51 Do you have trade-offs?

49:53 Are there things that you are just not doing that other

49:55 moms might be like I do that all the time.

49:58 What are you not doing?

49:59 Um I don't cook as often as I should.

50:01 We definitely have support in in the kitchen because it's

50:04 a lot of work and a lot of mouth to feed.

50:06 It's a lot of food.

50:07 Um I'm I don't do the laundry.

50:09 I don't do the laundry.

50:11 Um I I this is what I started doing

50:15 when I started growing in the area of revenue.

50:20 I started asking myself how much of this that am I doing

50:24 that someone else could do that would not necessarily damage my children.

50:29 And they do not care whether or not I fold their clothes.

50:34 No, they don't.

50:33 No.

50:34 They they do like to have clean underwear though

50:38 and we like them to have clean underwear.

50:39 I prefer it.

50:40 But who cleans the underwear?

50:42 There there's a little negotiation there, you know,

50:44 and so it started like we would maybe a laundry service for just a few things,

50:48 but then we've been able to evolve that as well.

50:51 Um so yeah, there's definitely some some things that I'm not doing.

50:55 And then there are other things that I absolutely have to do.

50:58 I will die on a heel about getting them

51:00 kids to school in the morning and picking them up.

51:02 I we all have our hard and fast like this is my thing.

51:06 I must see them.

51:07 I need to see their attitudes before they go to school

51:09 and I need to see their attitudes when they're coming home.

51:11 So when when I'm on a trip like this, their sister's picking them up,

51:14 which is like the their older sisters,

51:15 like the next best thing to have a mom look

51:18 at them cuz I know that she'll take care of them.

51:20 But I don't I don't play about being with them.

51:23 That's I mean, listen, I love the honesty because I think that we all need

51:27 to get out of our way when it comes to help.

51:29 if you can afford and you are able to have any type

51:33 of help like it's really important that we just honest about taking it

51:37 and don't again don't get in our own ways because I really really

51:40 feel like we can be so proud about taking anything from anyone and everybody

51:46 needs a little something and can I tell you I think not

51:49 even basing it on income because part of what lowincome families are able

51:54 to do that often middle and upper class families don't do is low-income

51:58 families they work together in order to facilitate someone's going to school and

52:02 like we all did back in the day.

52:04 Exactly.

52:05 And so I think that we have an opportunity to also

52:07 make sure that we are allowing people to help us.

52:11 People who say things like if you need anything, let me know.

52:13 That we don't want people feel like, well,

52:14 I don't want them think I'm not being responsible,

52:16 so I don't want to ask for any help.

52:18 So important is help that there are literally

52:19 government assistant programs to help caretakers have a day

52:22 out so that they can take care

52:24 of themselves instead of taking care of other people.

52:26 And so I also want to just challenge people to not think

52:28 that help is limited to certain

52:30 income brackets that there's often community support

52:33 and there are often programs that exist to help people of all

52:36 income spectrums to be able to get help and support that they need.

52:39 But you still got to be open to taking the help,

52:41 but you got and admitting that you need it.

52:43 Admitting that you need it is a huge huge thing.

52:46 And let me tell you who else you need to help you.

52:47 You need your husband to help you.

52:49 Which takes me to my next subject which is the whole marriage

52:52 and the business and the partnership because you work with your husband.

52:56 And one of the things that I wanted to ask you is that for women

52:59 that have fought so hard to become

53:02 their own person and to have their independence.

53:05 What does it look like trying to actually build alongside somebody?

53:09 You know, Emma, I tell my husband all the time, I'm so submissive.

53:12 I'm so submit.

53:13 I say that because after he has wrestled with me, you have to tell him.

53:18 I FEEL LIKE IT MIGHT NOT BE.

53:19 I'M LIKE, you know what?

53:20 I am blown away by how submissive I am.

53:23 It really, you know, and he giggles.

53:26 I'm not sure what the joke is.

53:28 It's hard, especially like I'm going to talk to you like

53:30 I would talk to like one of my home girls, right?

53:32 When you have had somebody play in your face and play

53:35 with your time and play with your body and your m,

53:39 the last thing you're going to do is let somebody get over on you again.

53:43 Let me just let me just lay down and see what happens next time.

53:46 Absolutely not.

53:47 Right.

53:47 And so I think I got married.

53:48 I was like, I love him,

53:49 but like I'm never going to let anybody play in my face again.

53:53 Um, but what I realized is like having someone reflect

53:56 your face is not the same as someone playing in your face.

53:59 And so I had to learn the beauty.

54:01 How long did that take you?

54:03 Well, we're 12 years in.

54:04 So 11 years and 6 months.

54:09 You know, he, you know, it's hard.

54:11 I was so busy trying to protect myself from him

54:14 that I didn't get to experience the beauty of who he is.

54:17 And so trusting um you know because of my faith

54:22 we have this like what God has put

54:23 together let no person tear apart and I didn't

54:26 want to be the one who was tearing it apart.

54:28 And so I really had to trust that God would allow

54:32 me to be in partnership with someone who could help make

54:35 my life better even though I had experiences where I put

54:39 myself with someone in the past and it didn't make it better.

54:42 So there is a humility, there is an awareness.

54:45 That's the other thing is I recovered so

54:47 hard that I didn't think I had any flaws.

54:49 You know, after I went down in the dumps and came

54:52 up like the phoenix that I believe that I am,

54:55 I said, "Wow, you really are that girl.

54:59 There are very few things wrong with you." And if they are,

55:01 they're in your past.

55:02 Then I meet Prince Charming.

55:03 And Prince Charming is like, "Your shoes off." And I'm like,

55:05 "Sir, I prefer to be barefoot."

55:09 And he's like, "Okay, well, your wig is still I prefer my wig.

55:12 I will take that off for you." Like, I've seen that stuff outside.

55:16 And so I missed out on the opportunity to like

55:19 really have meaningful feedback that can make me better.

55:22 And so when I learned to like at least take his feedback,

55:24 even if I took it with my eyes rolled

55:26 and then like you don't know what you're talking about,

55:27 I'd like take it to my closet and be like,

55:29 well, let me look at it and see what he said.

55:31 And I would see opportunities for me to grow and opportunities for me to change.

55:36 And I learned to come to a space where I realize we really are on the same team.

55:39 Now his delivery may be different from mine.

55:41 His perspective may be different.

55:42 We may have to learn how to communicate things.

55:45 But I know that he's for me and knowing that he

55:47 is for me has been one of the greatest gifts

55:50 that I think that I have been able to offer

55:52 to our marriage because it has changed the way that we communicate.

55:55 But it is hard to be in partnership after you've been wounded

56:00 and hurt and to allow someone into the most intimate parts of your life.

56:04 It's challenging, but when you really trust that that person is there

56:07 to make your life flourish and they have evidence of it, right?

56:12 Cuz we're not just talking about words.

56:13 I looked at the way that his evidence showed up.

56:16 We were just dating.

56:17 He lived in California.

56:17 I lived in Dallas.

56:18 It was my daughter's first day of school.

56:20 He flies into town for her to go to her first day of school.

56:23 You know what I mean?

56:24 There were these little things, these little signs along the way where I said,

56:26 "You I can trust him." And most importantly, you can trust yourself again.

56:31 And I feel like, yeah, that you can trust yourself again.

56:35 When you've made poor decisions in the past, you don't trust yourself.

56:39 It's not about the other person.

56:40 That's always what I feel like when there are

56:44 tough relationships, when there are infidelities,

56:47 when you feel like somebody has played in your face to use your words,

56:51 it's not just a mistrust of the other side.

56:53 It's a mistrust of yourself.

56:55 Like you are like, I didn't see that.

56:57 I didn't understand that.

56:58 I allowed that to happen to me.

57:01 So, you have to build that trust of yourself.

57:04 Do you do you trust yourself now?

57:06 Yes, I do.

57:08 I trust myself to do the best that I can

57:10 with what I know and to recover from what I don't know.

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59:42 Where does um does does the kind of past creep up with you?

59:45 Because one of the things that's so extraordinary, first of all,

59:48 you have a marriage and and a life and children with your husband.

59:52 You also work together which completely like just adds, you know,

59:57 little spice and fire and all the things to the dynamic.

1:00:01 Like how have you how have you kind of reconciled both of those things?

1:00:06 I think and we're both drivers, right?

1:00:08 So when we work together, we play a game called how low Can you go?

1:00:13 Oh, please tell.

1:00:14 Okay.

1:00:14 So, it's like, you know, here's what I think should happen, but hey,

1:00:17 I'm going to toss it over to him to see what he'd like to see happen.

1:00:19 He tosses it back to me.

1:00:21 Like, that's a great idea.

1:00:22 Here's another perspective that could help take this to the next level.

1:00:25 that we're always trying to like honor one another's contribution because we are

1:00:28 both drivers but I also think that we recognize that we have different strengths

1:00:32 and so he's very macro he can see the big picture and to see

1:00:36 the big vision I can see some of the roadblocks we may encounter

1:00:40 in the executing of those um ideas and that happens like the same way

1:00:44 our family exists is the same way that our business relationship exists and so

1:00:48 he may have this idea like hey the family's going to run a 5K

1:00:52 and I'm like that sounds like a a really great idea in execution.

1:00:58 That means we need to start training three days a week.

1:01:00 We need to change the nutrition.

1:01:02 Like I'm the one who's going to say like, "Okay,

1:01:03 we need to this is how it's going to filter out."

1:01:05 Um and so that that same thing exists in our business.

1:01:08 And so um and I've also learned to communicate to him

1:01:11 in a way that allows our ideas to really be platformed properly.

1:01:15 I don't it's it's a dance.

1:01:17 It's a dance.

1:01:17 It's a dance.

1:01:18 It's a dance.

1:01:19 He doesn't care.

1:01:20 There are certain things that he I know he doesn't care

1:01:22 about and there are things he knows that I don't care about,

1:01:24 but we have to keep one another informed about those things

1:01:26 that the other person doesn't care about because that gets tricky too.

1:01:29 So tell me like if there's a big decision in your business

1:01:32 that would affect like thousands of people, who wins out?

1:01:35 Like who what what happens in that situations that we we both win?

1:01:40 We have to if there's something big,

1:01:42 we have to both agree about the decision that we're

1:01:45 going to take or we don't do it at all.

1:01:48 Oh, I like that rule.

1:01:49 Yeah.

1:01:49 Yes.

1:01:50 And the smaller things is kind of like, hey,

1:01:52 I think that's going to be a loss, but that's up to you.

1:01:54 You know what I mean?

1:01:54 It's your L to take or we'll take the L together.

1:01:57 You know what I mean?

1:01:58 But while we're taking the L, I'm going be telling you,

1:02:00 hey, we didn't have to take this L.

1:02:02 But the big things uh we we have to be on the same page about it's a good rule.

1:02:07 I really I I think and I know that that works.

1:02:10 Yeah.

1:02:11 I wanted to ask you about legacy because you obviously

1:02:16 you know your father is one of the most famous pastors

1:02:19 in the whole world and when I think about the idea

1:02:23 that you are you know for some in some extent following

1:02:26 in his footsteps I wonder how you make it yours

1:02:31 and how you're thinking about what you want to take from what

1:02:35 you learned and what you saw growing up and what

1:02:38 you might want to leave behind and what's in your future.

1:02:40 future.

1:02:41 I don't know if I think about that much at all to be honest.

1:02:44 Oh, that's interesting.

1:02:45 Yeah.

1:02:45 I don't think about how to make it mine.

1:02:47 I just am me and I bring me to it

1:02:51 and whatever happens from that place happens from that place.

1:02:55 But I think that um you know, I've grown up in this shadow my entire life

1:03:00 and I think that there were moments where I was like, I'm going to be myself.

1:03:04 I'm going to have distinction and I'm going to force myself to have a carve out.

1:03:08 And I think in the process of doing that, I just wear I just wore myself out.

1:03:12 And so now I just focus on like what is true for me,

1:03:15 what is authentic to me and my delivery and my studying

1:03:18 and the way that I connect and relate to people.

1:03:20 And in the process of doing that, you know,

1:03:23 people make whatever choices they make about whatever

1:03:26 lane I'm in or whatever it is they see.

1:03:28 But I want to be able to lay down at night and say

1:03:30 that I was true to myself and true to what I possess.

1:03:33 So, how do you think about constantly being a woman who is evolving?

1:03:40 Well, as it relates to the speaking and being able to talk to people,

1:03:43 I really look at them.

1:03:45 I think in a world where we can become consumed by seeing people

1:03:49 as figures and numbers that we miss out on the opportunity to really see them.

1:03:54 And so, when I'm in a room and I'm speaking, I'm looking at what moves people,

1:03:58 what resonates with them to really see them as people.

1:04:01 I'm asking myself when studying what does this mean

1:04:03 to the guy who sits on the second row?

1:04:05 What does this mean to the person who's going to watch this on YouTube?

1:04:09 Um, one of the beauties of social media and it's got a lot of complexities,

1:04:13 but one of the beauties is it allows you to see how people think,

1:04:15 how people receive what's happening in the world.

1:04:17 And so I get to ask myself,

1:04:19 how does this message translate to all of these different

1:04:21 people that I get to be exposed to?

1:04:24 And I think that that evolves me as a woman.

1:04:27 You know, I am in a position where I get to meet people in some

1:04:30 of their most vulnerable moments and some

1:04:32 of their most vulnerable dreams and aspirations.

1:04:36 And the fact that they would trust me with that makes me

1:04:38 want to be as well-versed as possible about the obstacles they face,

1:04:43 practical, emotional, spiritual, and to give them the types of tools

1:04:47 that empower them to take agency in their lives.

1:04:50 That's part of the reason why I've gone back

1:04:51 to school is to understand what interventions work, which ones don't,

1:04:54 and how do I create the types of programs that allow people

1:04:58 to really feel positioned to grow into the best versions of themselves.

1:05:01 And so, I see my teachers as the people

1:05:03 who are on the streets as much as my professor,

1:05:06 as much as it is my Bible, and the books that I read.

1:05:08 I've got teachers everywhere.

1:05:10 All right.

1:05:10 My final question for you before I move you on to a little bit of rapid fire.

1:05:15 Okay.

1:05:16 Um, I wonder what you still aspire to and for in your life.

1:05:22 I aspire to take the large impact of woman

1:05:26 evolve and to funnel it down into local expressions

1:05:31 um that are wellinformed about the obstacles and barriers

1:05:35 that exist within certain communities and creates the type

1:05:39 of programmings and tools to help those who

1:05:42 are marginalized to move into a position of power.

1:05:45 I think a lot about AI and how it's going to impact a generation of people who

1:05:50 may not be as educated or may not

1:05:52 have as much access to technology as it changes.

1:05:55 And you know, no matter how far removed you think

1:05:58 you are from that, it's going to impact all of us.

1:06:01 And I want to give them the best shot possible at having a life of um,

1:06:07 you know, stability for sure, but also wholeness and healing.

1:06:11 That's a really big aspiration.

1:06:13 I know.

1:06:13 I've got to funnel it down.

1:06:14 No, you know, I've got it.

1:06:15 I I mean, literally, if anyone can do it, you can do it.

1:06:18 Thank you.

1:06:18 All right, we're going to rapid fire.

1:06:20 What are you watching or listening to right

1:06:22 now that has nothing to do with faith?

1:06:25 Oh, um, she Oh, one second.

1:06:28 Um, we Oh, lioness.

1:06:31 H there's there's something spiritual about lioness, though.

1:06:34 I don't know.

1:06:34 Does it does it or does not have something to do with faith?

1:06:37 Cuz my girl is at her doing the Lord's No.

1:06:40 Okay.

1:06:41 Lioness.

1:06:42 We just binge watched Lioness at Paradise.

1:06:45 You know, Emma, let me tell you something place.

1:06:47 As a girl who grew up in church,

1:06:49 particularly black church, we find something spiritual about everything.

1:06:53 Okay?

1:06:54 We just be like, I feel a little oil on that.

1:06:56 That's what we say.

1:06:57 Okay?

1:06:57 I'll be watching shows that have don't have anything to do with faith.

1:07:00 Let me tell you, YOU'LL BE LIKE, YOU KNOW, I CAN SEE IT.

1:07:04 HONEY, if I bite into the right morsel of food,

1:07:06 I will be like, "Holy Ghost, right here.

1:07:09 felt it right here.

1:07:11 So, you know, everything's going to be a little spiritual for me,

1:07:13 but Paradise and Lioness is probably taking over right now.

1:07:16 That is First of all, that's just a great answer,

1:07:18 and I feel like that about almost every meal I have.

1:07:20 Um, what is your morning routine on a Sunday before you preach?

1:07:24 I get up.

1:07:26 Well, no.

1:07:27 When I first when my alarm first goes off,

1:07:30 I keep my eye mask on for a minute and I sit

1:07:31 there and I breathe and I remind myself of what day it is.

1:07:36 cuz sometimes I don't even know what day it

1:07:38 is or what is expected of me during the day.

1:07:41 But um I invite the peace of God and the presence of God into my day

1:07:46 and ask that I can be a reflection of God in everything that I do.

1:07:50 That's before I step out of the bed.

1:07:52 I love that.

1:07:53 Yeah.

1:07:54 What's the last thing you searched?

1:07:58 Oh, I don't know.

1:08:00 What's the last thing I remember?

1:08:01 Be honest.

1:08:02 I I because the most random things are in my search history.

1:08:07 Oh my gosh.

1:08:10 I'm gonna have to give you the most random.

1:08:14 My husband and I were looking up something random.

1:08:16 I can't remember what it was.

1:08:18 I don't know.

1:08:19 Probably something about it be a wash and go hairstyle.

1:08:23 See, cuz my daughter wanted to get her she

1:08:26 wanted to I let me tell you, you know,

1:08:28 I I wear a lot of wigs as have I've mentioned

1:08:31 and so my hair is usually braided down and have seen, you know,

1:08:35 um my hair is usually braided down, but every now and then my daughter,

1:08:38 I let her take her hair out and she's been wanting to do a wash

1:08:40 and go and I really thought that doing a wash and go was like washing and going.

1:08:45 And what I learned is that the people are lying on the internet.

1:08:48 They're lying.

1:08:49 If you should trust anybody, it should be the people on the internet.

1:08:51 I don't know why y'all calling these things a wash and go.

1:08:53 It's very mostly given wash and stay home before you

1:08:55 go anywhere and so I probably don't have time for it.

1:08:59 No, absolutely not.

1:09:02 No hard no.

1:09:04 So don't don't search that.

1:09:06 Um what's your top guilty pleasure?

1:09:09 Oh, a Starbucks cookie.

1:09:11 A chocolate chip cookie from Starbucks.

1:09:12 Oh, really?

1:09:13 It's terrible, Emma.

1:09:16 It's terrible.

1:09:19 How often do you allow yourself?

1:09:20 What what's the indulgement rate?

1:09:23 Well, okay.

1:09:23 So, here's the thing.

1:09:24 People say that like, you know, nutrition if you do like 80% good and 20% bad.

1:09:30 So, 80% of my day is good.

1:09:32 That 20% I save.

1:09:33 So, you know, is it every day?

1:09:36 It could be.

1:09:37 Possibly.

1:09:38 Poss.

1:09:38 Yeah.

1:09:39 I mean, I understand that.

1:09:40 I used to work with this guy who um and he was like a junior

1:09:44 guy in the office and that we'd all be around and the girls and we'd be

1:09:48 having a treat and he used to walk past our desks and say it's not

1:09:51 a treat if it happens every day girls

1:09:54 and I just remember you offended someone heard him.

1:09:58 I want you to be free from that.

1:10:01 I want freedom for you.

1:10:04 You about 20%.

1:10:05 All right, last question.

1:10:06 What is a book that changed your perspective?

1:10:10 I Oh, I was probably supposed to say the Bible.

1:10:13 I thought you were GOING TO SAY, BUT NO, NO, NO.

1:10:16 You can choose any book that you any any other book.

1:10:21 Um, okay.

1:10:22 Permission to Feel by Mark Brackett.

1:10:25 It was life-changing for me.

1:10:27 I had gone through this.

1:10:28 I My book hit the New York Times bestseller list and my friends and family,

1:10:31 they were all excited and I just did not care.

1:10:34 And I I realized that there was something wrong with me.

1:10:36 where I wasn't able to feel moments accurately

1:10:39 and that book really helped me a lot.

1:10:42 Wow.

1:10:42 Thank you, my love.

1:10:43 This is heaven.

1:10:43 Thank you.

1:10:44 Thank you.

1:10:46 Thanks for joining me on the Aspire podcast.

1:10:48 For more strategies on how to build the life of your dreams,

1:10:51 be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel.