Overtime with Bill Maher: Kara Swisher, Rahm Emanuel, Jake Sullivan (HBO)

0:00 CNN's new series, Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever,

0:03 airing Saturdays at 9:00, Kara Swisher.

0:05 He's a professor at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government,

0:07 former National Security Advisor under Joe Biden, Jake Sullivan.

0:11 And he was Obama's White House Chief of Staff,

0:13 Mayor of Chicago, Ambassador to Japan, Rahm Emanuel.

0:17 -(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING) -Wow, what a...

0:19 What a resume we have here.

0:21 Okay, so you probably just watched, you're on Overtime here,

0:24 the show where I ended with that thing about AI.

0:27 All of you said to me right after it ended, I'm right.

0:30 So we all know that it's gonna kill us,

0:32 but we just keep going toward the cliff like the lemmings?

0:36 Is that about it?

0:38 You said something very powerful in your statement there.

0:42 You said the very people building this technology

0:45 are warning us about what is going to happen.

0:48 They're saying, "We're doing this, we're on the cutting

0:50 edge of this, and it's really dangerous.

0:52 Do something." And all of us are just kinda like,

0:55 "Oh, I guess we'll see what happens." Here's the thing.

0:56 They did this a long time ago.

0:57 I was at dinner parties where they're like,

0:59 "We don't know how it works," constantly.

1:01 -This was a decade ago.

1:02 -BILL MAHER: Right.

1:02 And one of the things I started warning about,

1:04 the social media, it was the same thing.

1:06 This is dangerous.

1:08 And they're more interested in the journey and the money,

1:11 because all of those people,

1:13 Elon Musk took billions and billions of dollars to develop it more.

1:16 It's not like they're stopping.

1:17 Elon Musk did not say, "It's so dangerous, I'm terrified of it,

1:21 now I want to stop." He's suing to get

1:23 control of OpenAI or paid by it or funded.

1:26 So every one of those people who yell,

1:28 "Safety!" is also taking money from venture capitalists to grow bigger.

1:31 BILL: So, what can we do?

1:32 The warning sign here, which is— Well,

1:34 the federal government's going to have to finally do something.

1:36 KARA SWISHER: Correct.

1:37 They can't kind of go the three-monkey routine,

1:38 see no evil, hear no evil, speak...

1:40 When Dario at Anthropic says,

1:45 "I'm not putting this product out..." I'm not living

1:47 in a world where one CEO's moral compass is what saves us.

1:51 That is not how this is going to work.

1:53 And the federal government is going to have to finally do something.

1:55 You're going to get industry, academics,

1:58 public policy people all around the table.

2:00 And what we do in federal government is we set a regulation,

2:03 we wait 30 years to see if it worked.

2:05 This is going to have to be real time, constantly updating things.

2:08 But the federal government cannot do just this Wild West.

2:12 Because these guys, as you put their pictures up there,

2:14 it looks a little bit like an FBI photo shot...

2:17 (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) ...cannot be in control.

2:20 They have to have adult supervision.

2:21 But can we go back to "Dario is

2:24 not releasing this because he's got a moral conscience"?

2:26 He is.

2:27 He's just releasing it to 40 big companies.

2:30 -KARA: Correct.

2:31 -You think it's not gonna get— You think you can release something to 40

2:34 major companies and it's not going to get out to everybody at a certain point?

2:38 I give it about a month.

2:39 It is a low bar.

2:40 That's what it is.

2:41 He's the best, and it's a low bar.

2:42 -Right.

2:42 -And what's really interesting is that we're not going to regulate.

2:45 They have so much money.

2:47 You know how much money they have.

2:49 Elon Musk is about to become a trillionaire,

2:51 and it's absolutely going to happen.

2:53 And with that much money and that much influence,

2:56 they can't even pass a basic privacy bill.

2:59 I've been screaming about it for 20 years.

3:01 They get mowed down by lobbyists and PACs and everything else.

3:04 And now there's a new AI PAC that they're funding.

3:06 All of these same people are funding the AI PAC.

3:09 They're funding, um...

3:10 RAHM EMANUEL: Only to be outdone by the crypto PAC.

3:12 KARA: ...crypto PAC, which got rid of— I mean,

3:14 they can buy anything, and that's— -But you know Elon pretty well.

3:17 -Yes.

3:17 Well, not anymore, but...

3:18 -Right.

3:19 Okay.

3:19 Well, it's been a little...

3:20 -(AUDIENCE CHUCKLES) -RAHM: But he knows you.

3:22 -Yes, Elon I.

3:23 I know Elon I.

3:24 Those quotes I read from him, they're from a few years ago at least.

3:28 Right, it was.

3:29 It seems like he was the guy because

3:31 I do remember when he first said that statement,

3:33 and it was the first time I'd ever really heard anybody say anything like that.

3:36 Well, he said it to me at an interview that we did.

3:39 Right.

3:39 -But it was a while ago, over ten years ago...

3:41 -It was.

3:41 and I was like, "Oh, this has not been on my radar.

3:44 Okay, Elon says it, maybe it is a thing." But lately,

3:49 I don't hear that from him.

3:50 Of course you don't, because he wants to be part of the rush of winning.

3:53 And one of the things— When he said that, and he said it

3:55 at a conference because that's when he

3:57 started OpenAI with Sam Altman and with others,

3:59 because they were scared of the power

4:01 of the Googles and the Facebooks and the Apples.

4:03 And it was to protect people and create guardrails.

4:07 And instead, it's so much money, they have to go for it, I think.

4:11 And now it's a dick-measuring contest.

4:12 So, Kara, is there any answer to this, then?

4:14 I mean, because I think you've sketched out this money motive is massive,

4:18 but we've got to be able to do something.

4:20 You know, I think people, because people are sick of this, like the suicides.

4:23 I've interviewed all those parents whose kids have died,

4:26 and these people are still trying to skate out of culpability,

4:29 like, as if it's not— Accountability, legal losses, and someday a perp walk.

4:33 I'm sorry.

4:34 It has to happen.

4:35 One thing I was...

4:37 First, I actually think it's one place that actually Xi and Trump,

4:39 when they meet in about a month,

4:40 actually can agree on something because both of them are scared of this.

4:43 -BILL: Right.

4:44 -Not fully.

4:44 The second thing— -BILL: You think Trump is scared of it?

4:46 -KARA: No.

4:47 No, I don't think Trump is, but he's desperate for a deal,

4:49 anything with Xi, so he looks good.

4:51 Desperate.

4:51 And I think this could be the one place.

4:53 Second, I would just say, you had two trials slightly off sides.

4:57 I mean off to the side, which is on the social media and kids.

5:02 They all went to jury,

5:03 and the jury took like ten seconds, boom, slapped them down.

5:06 That tells you how angry and anxious people are.

5:09 It's a separate issue than AI.

5:11 But these media moguls slash technology moguls do not understand

5:16 the loathing people have for the way they are acting.

5:18 AI is almost as unpopular as the Democratic Party.

5:21 (LAUGHTER) It's like, in the polls, it's right there.

5:25 -(AUDIENCE APPLAUDS) -And— Go ahead.

5:27 Guess who his new boss is gonna be?

5:30 Like, they're buying everything, whether it's Apple.

5:32 It's not just Larry Ellison.

5:33 And they're all buying the media properties.

5:35 See, I don't think it's on Trump's radar.

5:36 I can't think of anybody in that administration,

5:39 and this is why I fight back so vehemently when people say,

5:42 "You shouldn't have had dinner with Trump." I should have dinner with him again,

5:45 because I'd bring this up in two seconds.

5:47 -(AUDIENCE APPLAUDS) -And he would listen.

5:49 I can't— Who is bringing it up in that administration?

5:51 -Who is bringing— What?

5:52 -(OVERLAPPING CHATTER) Now,

5:53 the person whose radar it is on now is Scott Bessent,

5:56 who called in all these guys.

5:57 Why?

5:58 Because he's worried that this Mythos gets out, you get cyber-attacks,

6:02 you get a complete collapse of the financial

6:03 system and with it the whole economy.

6:05 KARA: But more than that, no, he did have people.

6:06 He brought in David Sacks.

6:07 We know that for a fact, that Scott Bessent is aware?

6:09 JAKE SULLIVAN: That he's actually summoned these folks— And the Federal Reserve.

6:12 They both called him in and said, "Okay, wait a second here.

6:14 Time out." This has been a wake-up call for them.

6:16 KARA: But who did they put in place?

6:17 David Sacks was the AI czar.

6:19 He's a longtime Silicon Valley investor,

6:21 tight with Peter Thiel and Elon and the rest of them.

6:24 They brought in Emil Michael of the Pentagon,

6:26 who did that ridiculous thing around Anthropic,

6:29 like calling them— never called an American— Yeah, Peter Thiel,

6:32 who was asked, like, -"Should humans keep living?" -Yeah.

6:34 "Uh..." And it was, like, not an immediate answer.

6:38 -No.

6:38 -It was like, "Uh..." "I'm thinking!" You know?

6:41 (AUDIENCE LAUGHS, APPLAUDS) That's not an SAT question.

6:46 That is not an SAT question.

6:48 Because they think we're going to be the— we are the...

6:51 -Singularity.

6:52 -...the singularity.

6:52 I remember when Ray Kurzweil was talking.

6:54 -He's still doing it.

6:55 -What?

6:56 He's still doing— He's still around.

6:58 And he predicted this a long time ago.

6:59 Oh, he wants it.

7:00 That's why.

7:01 He wants— Right.

7:01 There's a difference between predicting it and wanting it.

7:04 -Yeah.

7:04 -I don't want to be half-robot.

7:06 I mean, look, if it— the parts that are not my brain, yes.

7:10 RAHM: As your doctor, you're not half robot, okay?

7:13 It's not happening to you, okay?

7:15 Not everybody else, but for you, you're not going to be half a robot.

7:18 (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) You're not a doctor, but you're brilliant.

7:22 -(CHUCKLES) -(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING) All right, let's move on.

7:25 These are from the people.

7:26 "You have a proposed--" This is for you, Rahm.

7:28 "...ten percent--" "You have proposed a ten-percent tax

7:31 on prediction markets." A ten-percent tax on them.

7:34 Okay.

7:34 "What kind of impact would this make?" -Give me the bones on this.

7:38 -The bones on it?

7:39 Ten percent on online gaming...

7:40 BILL: Prediction market, meaning?

7:42 You know, Polymarket.

7:44 -BILL: Polymarket.

7:44 -Yeah.

7:46 As Kara said, when you guys were doing the interview, we're cutting...

7:50 National Institute of Health, National Science Foundation,

7:53 the DARPA by 40 percent.

7:55 Xi in China is doubling up every year on their research.

7:58 We're losing the race, we're sitting on fumes,

8:01 and we have to increase our research and development dollars.

8:03 We have 400 billion dollars and growing spent on gambling.

8:07 I want to bet on America, not bet against America,

8:09 and that's what we're doing right now, and plow all the money into doubling up

8:13 on research so we don't lose this race on fusion,

8:16 nuclear energy, quantum computing, life sciences to the Chinese,

8:21 which we are now losing.

8:22 So you think the Polymarket things are that influential?

8:25 I think the Polymar— Oh, absolutely.

8:27 And I also think there's inside trading going on.

8:29 -Yeah.

8:29 -RAHM: And I do think there is online sport gambling,

8:32 and you put them all together, it's 400 billion dollars and growing.

8:36 I'm for 40 to 50 billion dollars of additional

8:39 money going into finding a cure for cancer,

8:42 finding a new energy source around fusion.

8:44 We're not doing it, and the Chinese are competing,

8:47 winning, and we're sitting here on the sidelines.

8:48 Except they just created a PAC for that, the gambling...

8:51 -to fight it.

8:51 -BILL: (CHUCKLES) Of course.

8:52 I can't tell you the sens— So my view,

8:55 ten percent across the board to create the revenue, goes in a lockbox.

8:59 The second thing, everybody in the federal government, everybody,

9:02 you are banned from participating in the online markets.

9:05 -(AUDIENCE APPLAUDS) -Banned.

9:08 And I'm gonna say this.

9:09 I'm gonna say this.

9:10 -(APPLAUSE FADES) -You have kids from Peoria and Pontiac fighting a war,

9:15 and you've got a bunch of Nepo babies down in Palm Beach betting on it.

9:18 That's not how we do this in America.

9:20 JAKE: And making a lot of money, too.

9:22 -RAHM: Yes.

9:22 -Right?

9:23 They pick the moment.

9:24 "When are we going to hit the Supreme Leader?"

9:25 There's a bet on that hours before it happens.

9:27 -KARA: They know.

9:28 -'Cause they know.

9:29 They know.

9:30 That's the insider trading.

9:31 We have seen more trades on oils,

9:33 on the oil market, within minutes before the trade.

9:36 That is— You don't need AI to know insider trading.

9:39 It's against the law, and nobody, the cop's not showing up.

9:43 So my view, ten-percent tax.

9:44 And if you get— KARA: Donald Trump Jr.

9:47 is in those two companies.

9:48 I did say, "Nepo baby, Palm Beach." KARA: Okay, got it.

9:51 -(AUDIENCE LAUGHS, APPLAUDS) -(PANEL LAUGHING) BILL:

9:58 And you are— Subtle is my new quality.

10:00 You are the only person at this table who has suggested that.

10:04 (AUDIENCE CHUCKLES) Also, other people running for government.

10:08 "Has the media overstated the rise

10:10 of authoritarians in Europe and around the world?

10:13 What do you think of Viktor Orbán's defeat

10:15 last week?" I did have that exact thought.

10:17 Like, again, the media kind of played me.

10:20 I mean, for years, all I've been reading about is,

10:22 "He's the second coming of Stalin.

10:24 There will never be democracy again in Hungary." And then, oh, actually, well,

10:28 people got tired of a guy just like they do in every democracy.

10:32 They didn't like him, and they wanted somebody with different policies,

10:35 and they voted him out, and he went and conceded the next day.

10:39 So I do feel a little used.

10:41 Well, I'll say one thing about this.

10:42 -This guy— -A little hurt.

10:44 -Who is an ally of him.

10:45 -This guy, uh, did everything he could to tilt the playing field in his favor.

10:50 -BILL: Yes!

10:50 -And yet, when you add up all the harms that he did to Hungary and this new

10:54 movement that came in that you would like

10:56 because it set aside all the old constituencies,

10:59 all the old special interests, it said, "We're going to bring everyone together,

11:03 we're not going to wilt," as you were saying before.

11:05 This young guy, Péter Magyar.

11:07 And they went— they had to run through

11:09 new media because they couldn't use the old media.

11:11 In fact, this guy went on television now, having won the election,

11:14 went on state TV, which would not let opposition figures appear,

11:18 and said, "The first thing I do as prime minister is shut

11:20 you down." So he was rigging the game, no doubt about it.

11:22 I agree, not a bad guy, but...

11:25 RAHM: Here's the lesson for Democrats, I mean this, and the rest of Europe.

11:28 He made Orbán's corruption relevant to your inability to pay.

11:32 So in my case, President of the United States gets a plane from Qatar,

11:36 you get six bucks a gallon.

11:38 Great trade.

11:38 As my mother would say, "Such a deal." Who would not think it?

11:41 -(AUDIENCE LAUGHS) -I mean, here's the thing.

11:43 He's going to get his arch, and you can't afford the Golden Arches.

11:46 -And I advise democrats to go— -(AUDIENCE APPLAUDS) -Well done!

11:49 -RAHM: Okay, thank you.

11:50 My thing is, it wasn't, you know, all the elites say,

11:53 "Oh, it's corruption." Well, corruption never sells, you idiot.

11:56 It's making the corruption relative in how you're getting screwed.

12:00 And that's the lesson from Orbán.

12:01 You're the only person at this table making that case,

12:04 and I think it's a great point.

12:06 -It is.

12:06 -(AUDIENCE APPLAUDS) You're not going to let go of that, are you?

12:09 (LAUGHTER) Not for the rest of your life.

12:12 "Cannabis use is on the rise among women..." -Oh,

12:15 "...in the United States." -(KARA CHEERS SOFTLY) -(BILL CHUCKLES)

12:17 -(AUDIENCE LAUGHS) "And for the first time recently--" Oh,

12:20 perfect for 4/20 coming up on Monday.

12:23 "...for the first time recently outpaced men.

12:26 Why does the panel think that is?" -I— -No idea.

12:30 Can we go back to AI?

12:31 -(CHUCKLES) -(AUDIENCE LAUGHS) Yeah, I don't know.

12:35 I mean, because men are bad...

12:37 -Who's the expert here?

12:37 -...and they need to get high?

12:39 -On pot?

12:40 And women.

12:41 -Yeah.

12:41 Uh-huh.

12:41 -(LAUGHS) -(AUDIENCE LAUGHS) "What do you think of JD Vance saying 'The Pope

12:46 should be more careful when talking

12:48 about theology'?" -(CHUCKLES) -(AUDIENCE LAUGHS) -These guys.

12:52 -KARA: Let me take that one.

12:53 -No I— -Just one second.

12:55 Rahm is the Catholic, right?

12:56 Rahm is the resolute Catholic.

12:57 I mean, as I've said, he has the charm of a Cybertruck as a politician.

13:02 -(AUDIENCE LAUGHS, APPLAUDS) -(BILL LAUGHS) But...

13:06 (APPLAUSE CONTINUES) I have one thing.

13:12 I mean, look, the Pope is also an American citizen and should

13:15 be able to say whatever he feels like -under the First Amendment.

13:17 -(AUDIENCE CHEERS) BILL: Yeah!

13:19 And he just looks like a putz.

13:22 -I don't know what else to say.

13:23 -BILL: Yeah.

13:24 Well, he's such a recent convert.

13:26 The Pope...

13:28 is an Augustinian-trained pope.

13:30 Augustine is the one that developed the concept of just war.

13:34 You're going to lecture the pope on the concept of just war?

13:38 I think, as one Jewish kid, that takes a lot of chutzpah.

13:43 I mean, that takes a lot of— And I got a lot of chutzpah,

13:46 but that is a lot of chutzpah,

13:48 lecturing— That wasn't, like, Augustine's main thing.

13:50 His main thing was that you're born with original sin.

13:53 You're evil to begin with, and that's why you need the Catholic Church.

13:55 That's why you need him to tell you what a just war is.

13:57 So Augustine was not a good guy either.

13:59 He's gonna out-Catholic you right now.

14:02 I'm not going for the Cath— I'm not for Jews for Jesus,

14:04 but I am for Jews for Pope Leo.

14:06 I'm setting that up as my new not-for-profit.

14:08 I'll say, JD Vance did not have a great week.

14:11 I mean, lecturing the Pope about theology,

14:14 which I don't know what Latin for chutzpah is, but that is crazy.

14:17 -BILL: Right.

14:18 -(AUDIENCE LAUGHS) Going and showing up with Orbán saying,

14:20 "Vote for this guy," and then getting absolutely repudiated,

14:23 then 21 hours in Pakistan, and he comes home and is like,

14:26 "I got nothing." That's like— Don't leave out the hall he couldn't fill.

14:28 Well, there you go.

14:29 So that's in one week.

14:31 Don't assume that Trump's not also setting them up.

14:34 And meanwhile, Marco Rubio's with Trump at the UFC fight in Miami.

14:37 Don't assume that there's not some evilness by Dr.

14:40 Evil.

14:40 (AUDIENCE LAUGHS, APPLAUDS) You mean...

14:49 plotting to discredit JD Vance?

14:50 Why does he have to do that?

14:52 It's his pick anyway.

14:52 KARA: He does that all the time.

14:53 But all he has to do is say,

14:55 "My pick for my successor is..." and his people will follow.

14:59 -He doesn't have to do a plot.

15:00 -KARA: It is not as delicious unless you're pulling out someone's toenails.

15:03 That's how it goes with this guy.

15:04 When was the last time he's ever showed any loyalty?

15:07 -BILL: No.

15:08 -And what he wants to show is that the Republican Party is nothing without me.

15:13 He's going to walk out and he's going

15:15 to show them there's a one-way street on loyalty.

15:18 I know that personality trait of him because I've seen it in other people.

15:21 He likes, he wants, needs ass kissers around him,

15:24 but then he does not respect them.

15:26 If you do it, he doesn't respect you.

15:29 He actually likes me, because I didn't do it.

15:32 KARA: Yeah, I can tell by those tweets.

15:33 -JAKE: You and Vladimir Putin.

15:35 -Exactly.

15:36 He likes to punch down and kiss up.

15:38 That's what this president does.

15:40 "Rahm, what is one thing Japan does well that America

15:43 should consider adopting?" It's the most beautiful thing I've seen.

15:48 Five-year-olds walk to school all alone.

15:51 BILL: Yes.

15:52 And they don't— There's no fear.

15:54 They go across the streets, they walk eight blocks, -and it is...

15:58 -(AUDIENCE APPLAUDS) It is— I told all the Japanese business leaders,

16:03 "You can have Mount Fuji." A five-year-old this big,

16:06 a backpack this big, with their little uniform, they come to a street,

16:11 they put their hands up, all the cars stop.

16:14 No, it's sublime.

16:16 It makes me cry when I think about how gorgeous that is.

16:19 Yes, and it is.

16:20 -But your trans— -RAHM: That's the one person that's done it.

16:22 BILL: Right.

16:23 (SHORT CHUCKLES) But you think you can transfer that to America?

16:27 -KARA: No.

16:27 -We're not good people like th— That's not what they said.

16:30 What can we learn?

16:30 I'll tell you this.

16:31 They have a sense of respect and sense of community.

16:34 We wear masks to protect ourselves.

16:36 They wore masks to make sure you didn't get sick.

16:38 And respect for others is a quality that, if you ask me what we could learn,

16:43 Japan has it in spades, and it's an unbelievably beautiful quality.

16:47 And you see it where they nurture these children

16:49 and give them back— We've stolen our children's childhood.

16:53 They have given it to them.

16:54 And that, to me, is one thing we can learn from them.

16:56 -Good.

16:56 Say that when you run.

16:57 -(AUDIENCE APPLAUD) All right.

16:58 Thank you, everybody.