MS NOW Highlights - May 6

0:00 I want to bring in MS Now's Michael Chanel on Capitol Hill.

0:03 David Ducker is senior writer at the dispatch,

0:06 an MS Now contributor and author of the book In Trump Shadow.

0:09 Lisa Rubin is MS Now senior legal reporter.

0:12 I think it's notable, Michael, that Lutnik is the first of Trump's

0:16 cabinet members questioned in the Epstein investigation.

0:19 What might we know about what's happening behind closed doors?

0:23 Yeah, Chris, it's incredibly notable and some could say it's one of the biggest,

0:28 if not the biggest day and conversation that the House Oversight Committee

0:32 will be having as part of this longunning investigation into Jeffrey Epstein.

0:36 So, in terms of this transcribed interview, it got underway at around 11:15 a.m.

0:41 this morning.

0:42 They are still inside in that room just behind me.

0:45 The way that this thing works is that Howard

0:47 Lutnik gives an opening statement and then Republicans are given

0:49 the opportunity to question him and then Democrats are given

0:52 the opportunity and they go back and forth from there.

0:55 Of course, as you mentioned,

0:56 the questions center on what the relationship was between

0:59 Howard Lutnik and Jeffrey Epste and how long it lasted.

1:03 There are questions about the timeline of their ties.

1:06 Howard Lutnik said that after a 2005 encounter,

1:08 he had cut off ties with Jeffrey Epstein,

1:10 but then he had confirmed that 2012 visit to Epstein Island.

1:14 And up to 2018, there are email correspondents between

1:18 folks in Lutnik's circle and folks in Jeffrey Epstein's circle.

1:20 And I can tell you this is a day that lawmakers have been looking

1:24 forward to for a very long time in terms of talking to Howard Lutnik.

1:28 He's appeared at least two times before under oath

1:31 for different hearings in his capacity as commerce secretary.

1:33 And he had told lawmakers earlier that he would

1:36 be answering their questions about Jeffrey Epstein come today.

1:39 Take a listen to one of those previous exchanges.

1:44 Why did you lie about your relationship with Epstein?

1:50 House Oversight Committee and I have agreed the time reclaiming my time.

1:55 I do not accept that answer.

1:57 We've heard that one.

1:58 We are our own committee.

2:00 We have our own reason to test your credibility and veracity.

2:04 Please answer the question.

2:05 Why did you lie to the post?

2:08 I have voluntarily agreed.

2:10 to spend the time and talk about it.

2:14 I reclaim the time.

2:16 Let the record reflect.

2:18 You're dodging the question.

2:21 The cover up continues.

2:23 So, Chris Howard Lutnik right there saying he would

2:26 answer questions about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein today.

2:28 Again, that is happening behind closed doors right now.

2:30 I'm told by a source in that room behind me that Lutnik said

2:34 it was unsettling when he had received an invitation to visit Epstein Island,

2:38 but of course, he then took his family there anyway.

2:41 were sure to glean through the details of that exchange

2:44 once we get our hands on the transcript.

2:46 One more note that I'll say about today's transcribed interview,

2:48 there are only about six members of Congress who are present.

2:51 It's because this is happening during a week when Congress is out of session,

2:55 the House not holding votes.

2:57 This it's worth noting that there is some frustration

3:00 among Democratic members that it's happening on a recess day.

3:03 However, this transcribed interview was scheduled back in March um

3:07 when Congress was supposed to be in session this week.

3:09 Then the House schedule changed because King Charles visited last week

3:12 and they had to line up the schedule with the Senate.

3:14 Um so some members in there but certainly not the full committee as they

3:18 get this very key witness behind them to ask them ask him about Jeffrey Epstein.

3:23 Michael, thank you for that.

3:24 Uh David, it's against that backdrop um

3:26 that I think it's important to play this series

3:29 of examples of how Howard Lutnik's stories have

3:32 shifted dramatically in just the past four months.

3:35 Here it is.

3:38 So, I was never in the room with him socially,

3:42 for business, or even philanthropy.

3:44 If that guy was there, I wasn't going cuz he's gross.

3:48 I did have lunch with him as I was on a boat going across on a family vacation.

3:56 My wife was with me, as were my four children and nannies.

4:03 We all forget things, David.

4:04 Um, but I guess is the key question here,

4:07 whether members of Congress who actually are there find it plausible

4:11 he could have forgotten bringing his entire family to a private

4:15 island owned by someone like Jeffrey Epste who he did

4:18 not have good things to say about over the years.

4:21 Yeah.

4:22 And the nannies plural.

4:23 So, uh, that was an interesting little side note there.

4:26 Look, it's very possible uh, for anybody to forget a whole bunch of things.

4:30 I mean, I can barely remember what I did last week,

4:33 let alone a decade ago, who I met with, who I didn't meet with.

4:36 I forget things all the time.

4:38 The problem is when you're a high-profile,

4:40 either elected official or public official

4:42 and there's a major investigation like this, people

4:45 are going to be very skeptical of the idea that you forgot something.

4:49 That's just a price you pay for being in public service.

4:53 Um, and you know, I I think

4:56 as this investigation unfolds and presumably as uh Mr.

5:01 Lutnik went back through his his calendars and and went through everything,

5:07 um, he he he may now that he's, you know,

5:10 deemed deposed by by the the committee have a better idea exactly where he was,

5:15 when he was, and who he was with.

5:17 As a matter of politics,

5:18 what I have found over the years are are a couple of things, Chris.

5:22 one, uh, people have a much higher bar

5:25 for for the other political party than they do for their own.

5:28 So, they're going to be a lot of voters, um, on one side here.

5:31 They're going to be really skeptical of Mr.

5:33 Lutnik and and probably a lot of voters on his side

5:36 that are going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

5:38 The other thing here is that look, the president's running a war in Iran.

5:41 Uh, and it's still a war no matter what he says.

5:44 Inflation is up.

5:46 The economy is in, you know, voters perceive it to be in difficult shape.

5:51 and the president's party is under the gun as we approach the midterm elections.

5:54 These are the sorts of distractions that you really

5:57 don't want um when you're dealing with such momentous

6:01 issues and this thing just doesn't go away

6:04 and it it's not going to go away anytime soon.

6:07 So Lisa, as someone who has read many of the thousands of pages

6:10 in the Epstein files and has stayed

6:12 on top of this story from the very beginning,

6:15 what are the key questions you would like to to or would hope to see answered?

6:19 Well, look, the very most basic question that I

6:21 have is the one that Maline Dean has,

6:24 which is why did you misrepresent to the post the fact that you continued

6:27 to have a relationship with this person

6:29 because it's not just that 2012 island visit?

6:32 There are emails between the two of them that persist through 2018.

6:37 But here are my most fundamental questions.

6:39 What else did you see when you either visited

6:42 his home or interacted with him on the island?

6:45 Who did you tell?

6:46 Did you notify anyone that something seemed arai to you or in his words gross?

6:51 And maybe most importantly of all, why did you continue to do business with him?

6:56 And I think this is an overlooked part of the Howard Lutnik story.

6:59 Howard Lutnick and Jeffrey Epstein were both

7:02 investors in a company called Adfin in 2018.

7:05 In their last known email correspondents,

7:07 Jeffrey Epstein is asking Howard Lutnik about

7:09 how this shared investment of theirs is performing.

7:12 Howard Lutnik through a spokesperson at one point said he

7:15 had no idea that Jeffrey Epstein was also an investor.

7:18 That email exchange however puts the lie to that.

7:21 And so there's only so many times a person

7:24 can forget notwithstanding what David says about the fact

7:26 that we are more forgiving sometimes of people who

7:28 agree with us than we are of people who don't.

7:31 There is a pattern here and it doesn't just pertain to 2012.

7:35 I want to know why Howard Lutnik continued

7:38 despite his statements to the Post to have social,

7:41 professional, and philanthropic ties with Jeffrey Epstein.

7:44 And maybe I've misread or misremembered,

7:46 but the first encounter that they had, as I recall it,

7:51 Lutnik and his wife were invited over by their next door neighbor,

7:54 Jeffrey Epstein, to see the place.

7:56 He takes them into a room and is curious about

8:00 why there is a massage room in the center of this.

8:05 I think it's the largest private residence in New York.

8:08 And he makes an offolor comment about the types of massages.

8:13 That was their first significant encounter.

8:16 I believe that that's correct.

8:18 And Howard Lutnik then goes on to tell

8:20 the New York Post in that podcast interview that he

8:23 and his wife together vow they are never going

8:26 to be again in a room with Jeffrey Epstein.

8:28 And yet we know that while they maybe weren't in a self-contained room,

8:33 they had lunch on the island outside

8:35 and continued to have engagements or interactions with him,

8:39 whether via email or, for example,

8:42 Howard Letic invited Jeffrey Epstein to a 2015 fundraiser he

8:45 held on behalf of then Secretary and presidential candidate Hillary Clinton.

8:49 Those are the kinds of things that people are going to want to have explained.

8:54 Why did you continue to reach out to this person?

8:57 Why did you continue to have even a distant

9:01 acquaintance-like relationship with him if you were so fundamentally,

9:04 for lack of a better word,

9:05 grossed out by what you saw at your next-door neighbor's home?

9:08 Why didn't you completely disassociate from him?

9:10 And why didn't you tell other people

9:12 in your social circle that something was ary?

9:14 It doesn't seem like Howard Letic did that, but today,

9:17 of course, he'll have an opportunity to more fully explain himself.

9:20 David, if you want proof that Democrats

9:22 are going to keep Epstein in the headlines,

9:23 you can take a look at shared Brown's very first ad.

9:26 first ad in the Ohio Senate race released just a couple of days ago.

9:31 Here's part of it.

9:33 Of all 535 members of Congress,

9:36 who's taken the most money from associates of Jeffrey Epstein?

9:41 John Houston.

9:42 That's who.

9:43 So, if you're a Republican in one of these tight and in that case,

9:49 I think unexpectedly tossup races, how do you even handle that?

9:53 Yeah, this isn't a fight you want to have.

9:56 I mean, there are a couple of things here, Chris.

9:58 I mean, you know, one, this is a a story that cuts across party lines,

10:02 as we saw last year with with both parties coming together

10:05 to force uh the passage of the Epstein Transparency Act and to get,

10:09 you know, as much information as the DOJ will apparently release um out

10:14 behind the curtain and and so it's not a bad message to prosecute.

10:19 I still think overall um shared Brown and other Democratic

10:24 challengers are going to be in better shape focusing on affordability,

10:28 which is our voters number one concern of all political stripes.

10:32 But this is a good way to to politically

10:35 push Republicans off balance and put them in a position

10:38 where they may feel compelled to to answer

10:40 a lot of questions they they don't feel like answering.

10:43 So, not a bad bad opening gambit.

10:46 Um, as a closing message, I think all candidates will be better off taking

10:50 a look at the polling in their district or state,

10:53 seeing what those top priorities are,

10:55 and then hammering those above anything else.

10:58 There is brand new reporting today on the country's

11:01 top law enforcement agency pouring time, energy,

11:04 and resources not into protecting the American people from all

11:08 of the myriad threats we face here at home and abroad,

11:12 but instead attacking the free press and pursuing a single journalist who dared

11:17 to write a deeply unflattering piece of reporting about the director of the FBI.

11:22 Two people familiar with the matter are

11:24 telling our colleagues Carol Lenig and Kendallian

11:27 that the FBI has opened a criminal

11:29 leak investigation into Atlantic magazine reporter Sarah Fitzpatrick.

11:33 You may remember Fitzpatrick wrote an alarming piece of reporting.

11:38 The headline was the FBI director's MIA.

11:40 For that report, she spoke to more than two dozen sources.

11:45 That reporting detailed Cash Patel's emotional outbursts,

11:48 his unexplained absences and excessive drinking to the point that quote,

11:53 "Some of Patel's colleagues at the FBI

11:55 worry that his personal behavior has become

11:58 a threat to public safety." Cash Patel

12:01 sued The Atlantic for publishing that story.

12:03 Cash Patel claims that the story is defamatory, that it amounts to defamation.

12:08 The Atlantic is standing by its reporting, even saying that it has received more

12:14 corroboration about its reporting since the story published.

12:17 Now, the FBI has launched a quote so-called insider threat investigation,

12:22 which is, according to Carol Lenig and Kendanian,

12:25 highly unusual because it did not stem from a disclosure of classified

12:30 information and because it is focused on leaks to a reporter.

12:35 With this investigation, agents can now try to gain access

12:38 to Sarah Fitzpatrick's phone and phone records.

12:40 They can go through her contacts on social media,

12:44 and they can run her name through various FBI databases.

12:47 It is something that is making some staffers at the FBI deeply uncomfortable.

12:53 One source telling MS Now, quote,

12:55 "They know they are not supposed to do this, but if they don't go forward,

12:59 they could lose their jobs.

13:01 You're damned if you do and damned if

13:04 you don't." This news today though tells us well

13:07 a a whole lot about the state of the FBI

13:10 under Cash Patel and what his priorities are.

13:13 But it also leads to real legal questions.

13:16 Questions about the lawsuit Cash Patel is bringing against The Atlantic.

13:21 Because you see, if the Atlantic's

13:24 reporting is actually defamation, as Patel claims,

13:28 and seems prepared to argue in court, that would mean that Patel has the goods.

13:33 He can prove it is all false and that it was printed with malice.

13:37 But if that's true, then it cannot also

13:40 be true that a criminal leak investigation is necessary,

13:43 the kind normally reserved for the disclosure

13:46 of classified state secrets of real information.

13:49 Those two are in legal contradiction.

13:51 In a statement, an FBI spokesperson denies that the investigation exists at all.

13:57 The Atlantic said this in a statement.

14:00 Quote, "An FBI criminal leak

14:02 investigation targeting our reporter would represent

14:04 an outrageous attack on the free press and the First Amendment itself.

14:08 We will defend the Atlantic and its staff vigorously.

14:11 We will not be intimidated by illegitimate

14:14 investigations or other acts of politically motivated retaliation.

14:17 We will continue to cover the FBI professionally, fairly, and thoroughly.

14:22 And we will continue to practice journalism in the public interest.

14:26 That is where we start today with the journalist who broke this story,

14:30 senior investigative reporter Carol Lenig.

14:32 Also joining us, former assistant special agent in charge at the FBI,

14:36 national security intelligence analyst for us, Michael Fineberg.

14:38 Uh Carol Lenig, take me through what you and Ken are reporting today.

14:42 Yes.

14:42 With my great colleague Kendallian,

14:44 we we broke a story that honestly made us both really worried

14:50 for uh a free press uh reporters in the normal everyday course of news

14:57 gathering because we write about this too and we've written quite a bit

15:01 about the FBI and about Cash Patel before this Atlantic story ran.

15:05 What we learned was that the FBI agents in a unit in Huntsville,

15:11 Alabama, where Director Patel basically transferred,

15:14 tons and tons of agents, hundreds,

15:17 I think in excess of 500 FBI personnel were were transferred to Huntsville.

15:23 that unit began getting instructions and orders

15:27 from the executive suite of Patel that they were

15:31 to investigate and review uh Sarah um Fitzpatrick's

15:35 interactions with social media with contacts with links.

15:40 We don't know the status right now, Nicole,

15:44 of whether or not they have compelled any internet

15:47 or phone providers to turn over her um turn over records.

15:52 uh metadata and other things about her contacts with sources,

15:56 but we are told that investigations ongoing

15:59 and the agents involved have raised concern internally,

16:02 obviously not to the director directly,

16:05 but have raised concerns that this is not how FBI investigations go.

16:11 They are typically predicated on a likely crime.

16:15 They exhaust every means possible in investigations to determine whether

16:21 a criminal leak has occurred and they also go to a reporter's

16:26 information when they are very sure a crime has occurred

16:30 and they need the information and have exhausted all other means.

16:35 And this is not what's happening today.

16:38 What?

16:39 First of all, why did he transfer 500 agents to Huntsville, Alabama?

16:44 You know, Patel uh has a vision uh or a a version

16:49 of the FBI in his mind in which they are cops,

16:53 and he believes that having a lot of FBI

16:56 personnel in Washington is a waste of resources.

17:00 and sending specialized teams out to field offices, which is what he did,

17:04 and to Huntsville means fewer people in the so-called bureaucracy.

17:08 I'm not so sure it accomplishes what he's

17:12 saying about putting more cops on the street,

17:15 which by the way is not what FBI agents are.

17:17 Um, but it certainly removes more people from Washington

17:21 and creates the optic that you have a smaller,

17:24 slim down headquarters and more people, quote unquote, in the field.

17:31 What crime would the agents in Huntsville,

17:35 Alabama take a single step that violates her freedoms,

17:41 that violates her privacy to even pretend to investigate?

17:46 The crime of making Cash Patel look like an alcoholic or a bad employee?

17:52 I mean, like, what what crime even gets this out the door?

17:56 So, I want to be careful about this, Nicole.

17:59 And I know you know what I'm going to say next.

18:01 This is ongoing reporting.

18:03 Um, however, what I can say to you is it is unheard of for any

18:10 of these steps to be taken when there

18:14 is not evidence of a disclosure of classified information.

18:19 However, when Pam Bondi was the attorney general,

18:23 she rescended an important media policy that had been codified

18:28 and and made much more specific by former Attorney General Merrick Garland.

18:34 And when she repealed those that policy about when you can compel um

18:41 say a Verizon or you know um AT&T to turn over phone metadata.

18:48 She repealed those provisions that required the attorney general,

18:53 the deputy attorney general's uh permission and authority to do that.

18:58 and and in her repeal, she also said that they could

19:04 have leak investigations for classified information leaks,

19:07 but also sensitive information leaks.

19:10 Now, it's not a crime to discuss

19:14 sensitive law enforcement sensitive material and and it's

19:18 just curious about Bondi's policy that it changed the language ever so slightly.

19:24 I can see a world in which Cash Patel believes or his lawyers

19:29 or his counselors believe that they can argue that his movements um

19:35 across the country or what his security detail communicate internally is law

19:42 enforcement sensitive or sensitive about his whereabouts

19:45 and his safety and his security.

19:48 We don't know that's what's going on, but I

19:53 am really pinpointing as an analyst of this event

19:57 how Bondi's language about when they can begin leak

20:01 investigations is different from Attorney General Merrick Garland's provisions.

20:05 I mean, Michael Fineberg,

20:08 I um always listen very carefully to what Carolyn says and doesn't say.

20:13 And um on the doesn't say part, I mean,

20:16 they have a tool to use um their extraordinary powers um

20:22 at the Department of Justice and the FBI to hack into basically,

20:29 you know, read all of her emails and u text messages

20:34 and encrypted messages in pursuit

20:37 of a flat unflattering article about Cash Patel.

20:40 I mean that is that is the worst example one of the worst

20:44 examples of people acting in a way that presupposes this moment won't end.

20:50 Um it is also part of a pattern.

20:52 New York Times reported last week the FBI said

20:54 have investigated Times reporter after article on Cash Patel's girlfriend.

20:58 Um tell me what you make of this.

21:03 Yeah.

21:04 I mean, well, first I want to clarify they

21:07 can't actually get the contact the content of any

21:10 of her messages or phone calls or emails without getting

21:14 an article 3 independent judge to sign off on it.

21:18 That's sort of the one bull work we

21:21 have left to stop them from totally overreaching.

21:24 But what we're seeing here is a sea change in terms

21:30 of how the FBI views its relationship with the American public,

21:36 the American media, and quite frankly, its place within the social contract.

21:41 I'm aware of many stories that came out about politicians, not the FBI director,

21:47 but about public figures during my tenure with the bureau where

21:52 the people who thought they'd been

21:54 mistreated demanded that an investigation be opened.

21:58 And every single time the organization refused

22:02 because if the FBI starts doing something,

22:05 anything really that is not based on an actual

22:10 threat to national security or a violation of criminal law,

22:14 then it in and of itself has become lawless.

22:18 It's become a secret police force.

22:20 I don't think we're there yet.

22:23 The fact that the agents working on this apparently

22:27 went to Carol and her colleagues actually gives me hope.

22:32 But the fact that Cash Patel might have ordered

22:36 these people to do it in the first place

22:39 is just exhibit 12,647 that he never should have

22:42 been picked for this job in the first place.

22:46 Not just because he lacks the credentials and the experience,

22:51 but because he lacks the temperament, the judgment, and the integrity.

22:56 Another bombshell report from The Atlantic

22:59 about Donald Trump's embattled FBI director.

23:02 Today, the magazine published this photo of quote,

23:05 "Cash Patel bourbon." The bottle, which The Atlantic purchased on eBay,

23:10 also features a rendering of an FBI shield.

23:12 The report says, quote,

23:14 "Pattel has given out bottles of his personalized whiskey to FBI staff as well

23:18 as civilians he encounters in his duties." That is according to eight people,

23:23 including current and former FBI and Department of Justice

23:26 employees and others who are familiar with the matter.

23:29 In a statement to the magazine, an FBI spokesperson did not deny Patel hands

23:33 out whiskey bottles with his name on it.

23:36 Called this a form of gift giving that falls

23:38 in line with the bureau's quote ethics rules.

23:40 The whiskey scoop comes from Atlantic journalist Sarah Fitzpatrick.

23:44 It is a followup to her reporting from last month.

23:48 Diving into Patel's controversial tenure as FBI director.

23:52 The report comes on the same day two sources tell MS Now

23:56 the FBI launched a criminal leak

23:58 investigation into Fitzpatrick's reporting on Patel.

24:02 Publicly, an FBI spokesperson denied such an investigation.

24:07 Also today, the FBI raided the office

24:09 of Virginia State Senator Luis Lucas this morning.

24:12 She recently led Virginia's redistricting effort

24:14 to counter Trump's push to rig the midterms.

24:17 Details about that raid remain murky.

24:20 We do know an investigation started under the Biden Justice Department,

24:23 but over the course of the last 3 years, no charges have been filed.

24:28 MSN now also learned Trump lackey Lindseay Halligan

24:31 had been pushing to bring charges in the case.

24:34 That was before a judge removed Haligan as an intram US attorney,

24:39 ruling her appointment was unlawful.

24:41 So all of the stories are connected here.

24:44 Um I will note that Cash Patel on April 10th for Sarah Fitzpatrick,

24:48 she wrote a story on April 17th that starts with on April 10th,

24:52 Cash Patel could not log into his FBI account.

24:56 Essentially, he couldn't get into the system.

24:58 And instead of thinking he just had the wrong password,

25:00 he thought he was fired and started calling

25:02 his allies and people in the FBI then

25:04 started calling the White House and Congress asking

25:07 who is the FBI director if not Cash Patel.

25:09 So um I don't know if this is Balden Wells for his prospects.

25:13 But Michael Alisia, they are they have

25:15 been attacking our democracy from the beginning.

25:17 They are actively trying to dismantle it.

25:19 By they I mean the White House, the current Republican party apparatus.

25:22 And they are doing it in various ways.

25:24 They're attacking the journalists and journalism.

25:26 They are attacking um their quote unquote opponents,

25:30 other dulyeleed Democratic leaders.

25:32 They are trafficking and sewing misinformation and disinformation.

25:35 They don't want to answer any questions.

25:38 We're going to slippery slide dive into some crazy stuff.

25:42 I hear you, Simone, but we got bourbon, so we're good.

25:46 Uh that's I mean that's the level that we're at, folks.

25:50 I mean, Simone has laid out the indictment against not

25:54 only this FBI a uh director and the agency itself, but this administration,

26:00 and yet it boils down to actions like this uh

26:04 where you just get your own little personal bottle of bourbon.

26:07 I mean, Alicia, what what does that say about where we are here?

26:12 It says we are deep deep into dysfunction.

26:15 Um but that also we've we've known that this was all coming, right?

26:20 They they've actually told us that their plan was

26:23 to go after all of the institutions that uphold our democracy.

26:27 There was an actual playbook and now we are watching them run the place.

26:32 So Simone, to your point, um, devastating, upsetting, um, but not surprising.

26:36 I was surprised, Simone.

26:38 And I was trying to find in project 2025 the section that said

26:41 we need to get a personal bottle of now that that I

26:45 do believe was improvised which you know like kudos I guess

26:47 to Cash Patel for trying to put his own spin on it.

26:50 But again I think it does always always it always goes

26:53 back to project 2025 to Alicia's point they telegraphed to us.

26:57 We had again Kevin Roberts he's not about Trump.

27:00 This is about imbuing Trumpism of journalists in leak investigations.

27:04 There might be investigation of the leaker but not the journalist.

27:08 In fact, the Biden administration tried

27:09 to in part codify this with internal regulations.

27:12 Those got walked back uh by this administration.

27:15 And so, you know, what I'm concerned about here is really twofold.

27:19 One is that potentially the administration

27:21 could call Sarah Fitzpatrick uh to testify,

27:23 issue a subpoena for that, and then she would require she

27:26 would have to either give up her sources or potentially uh face,

27:29 you know, some sort of judicial consequence.

27:31 The other is that the administration starts seeking digital

27:35 data from her or other people at the Atlantic.

27:38 You know, a search, you know,

27:39 a search warrant for their email accounts, bank accounts, and so forth.

27:42 As part of this investigation, I will just say one thing.

27:46 You know, this administration has absolutely collapsed

27:48 the credibility of the Department of Justice, the the FBI in general.

27:52 I think it's going to be really incumbent on magistrate judges

27:55 in investigations like these to try to look past just the initial

27:59 things that the department is saying in seeking these search warrants

28:02 to try to understand is this for a proper or improper purpose.

28:06 Good evening from New York.

28:07 I'm Chris Hayes.

28:08 Cash Patel is the most incompetent FBI director in the country's history.

28:12 I don't think it's really even close.

28:13 He is also willing to go whatever lengths he can

28:16 to exact retribution from anyone that he feels has personally wronged him.

28:20 no qualms about abusing their position and bringing the full

28:23 power of the state down on their perceived enemies.

28:25 In fact, that's why Donald Trump got into the game to begin with.

28:28 He seems to have a partner in Cash Patel because we are

28:31 learning much more about how dangerous

28:33 the administration's revenge campaign can get.

28:35 The first development revolves around this bombshell report on Patel's

28:39 tenure last month by Sarah Fitzpatrick of The Atlantic.

28:42 More than two dozen sources in and out of the FBI told Fitzpatrick

28:46 Patel frequently disappeared from the job

28:48 and drank to excess that he was erratic, suspicious of others,

28:52 and prone to jumping conclusions before he has necessary evidence.

28:55 Hm.

28:55 On multiple occasions in the past year, she wrote,

28:58 members of a security detail had difficulty

29:02 waking Patel because he was seemingly intoxicated.

29:06 And notably, a request for breaching equipment normally

29:09 used by SWAT and hostage rescue teams to quickly

29:13 gain entry into buildings was made last year

29:16 because Patel had been unreachable behind locked doors,

29:19 according to multiple people familiar with the request.

29:22 Now, you might remember Patel issued a blanket denial.

29:25 The Atlantic included that denial in their piece.

29:28 Fitzpatrick in the magazine said, "We stand by our story,

29:31 even said they had gotten corroboration from more sources after the story was

29:36 published." Then Patel sued the magazine

29:38 and the reporter for defamation for $250 million.

29:42 A seemingly rushed, errorridden lawsuit.

29:44 had a bunch of typos, misspellings in it that was ridiculed as an obvious

29:50 ploy by most legal experts who read it.

29:52 Today, things appear to have escalated because it's

29:55 no longer the domain of a private lawsuit,

29:58 but rather the government that represents all of us.

30:01 According to exclusive reporting by MS Now

30:04 reporters Carol Lenig and Kendallanian Patel's FBI,

30:06 which is to say our FBI, the American FBI,

30:11 has now launched a criminal leak investigation into Sarah Fitzpatrick,

30:15 the author of that Atlantic story,

30:18 an investigation sources call quote, highly unusual.

30:20 It could now be used in his excuse to obtain Fitzpatrick's phone records,

30:25 run her name and information through FBI databases,

30:28 examine her social media contacts.

30:29 with reporter Carol Lenning about all that in just a second.

30:32 There's only one way to interpret it.

30:34 It is an attempt to chill critical reporting.

30:37 It is obviously a flagrant attack on the First Amendment.

30:40 It is not the first time Cash Patel's FBI appears to have done this.

30:44 Last month, you might remember the New

30:46 York Times reported the FBI launched a criminal

30:49 stalking probe into one of the Times

30:51 reporters for writing a story on Patel's girlfriend.

30:54 Here is how Patel responded when asked about those allegations.

30:59 This same reporter delivered a baseless story which

31:03 caused a direct threat of life to my girlfriend.

31:05 We are going to protect not only me and my loved ones,

31:08 but every American that is threatened.

31:10 But here's the thing.

31:11 Me and mine are like you and President Trump.

31:13 We're as tough as they come.

31:14 We're not going to stand down.

31:15 We're not going to take it a knee on this one or anything.

31:19 Now, that probe went nowhere.

31:21 The Times correctly called it what it was.

31:23 The Trump administration examining whether to criminalize routine news gathering

31:26 practices that are widely considered protected by the First Amendment.

31:30 Apparently all because of Cash Patel's personal animus against reporters.

31:33 But threatening reporters wasn't the only thing the FBI was up to today.

31:38 Federal agents are arresting people in that string of FBI raids across Virginia.

31:44 This is all connected to an influential

31:47 Democrat in the Commonwealth of Virginia, State Senator Luis Lucas.

31:50 They are at her office executing warrants as a part of a major corruption probe.

31:57 Now, you see that picture there, the FBI agents in camouflage with long guns.

32:03 Do you think that's necessary for this raid of the office?

32:06 Here are those FBI agents this morning raiding the office of Luise Lucas.

32:11 Look at them.

32:12 82year-old state representative.

32:13 Think you think you got to do

32:15 that for that or you think that's done for the cameras?

32:18 Lucas, the second woman of color to serve

32:20 in Virginia State Senate after growing up under Jim Crow.

32:23 The move comes, as you might know, just two weeks after it was Lucas,

32:27 who almost more than anyone else led the successful

32:30 push to redraw Virginia's congressional districts to favor

32:34 Democrats to respond to the actions of Donald Trump

32:38 and Republican state legislators to tip the playing field.

32:41 And in in clear defiance of Donald Trump, they started, we'll finish it.

32:46 We would not be in this place if it had not been for Donald Trump

32:51 and his shenanigans and trying to get what he

32:54 called five new seats that he was entitled to.

32:56 He ain't entitled.

32:57 I'm sorry.

32:58 He's entitled to anything.

33:00 When a statement responding to the raid, Lucas said, quote,

33:03 I have never been afraid to stand up to Donald

33:05 Trump or anyone else that has tried to undermine our democracy,

33:07 adding, I am not backing down.

33:09 The FBI says the raid is part of a year'slong corruption invest

33:12 in investigation into Lucas and a bunch

33:15 of local cannabis dispensaries in Virginia.

33:17 And that may very well be the case.

33:21 Maybe.

33:21 Do you trust them?

33:23 Can anyone look at this FBI and this Justice Department right now

33:27 in this moment and simply assume they are acting in good faith?

33:31 Assume it's a coincidence these raids came

33:33 shortly after the Virginia referendum Lucas led.

33:36 Also, just a week after Patel giddily announced a new criminal

33:40 indictment of longtime Trump critic and former FBI director James Comey,

33:44 should we also wonder who tipped off

33:46 a Fox News correspondent to Lucas Reid after Fox

33:49 was the only station on the scene

33:51 in Southeast Virginia when the raid appeared to start?

33:54 Now again, whatever the facts turn out to be in this case,

33:58 and again, I'm withholding judgment as to what the actual merit is.

34:01 It is of course conceivable there's some wrongdoing here that was investigated.

34:05 The thing about where we are right now,

34:08 and I can't stress this enough, is that Trump and Blanch and Patel,

34:12 the entire administration from the White House up down have

34:16 forfeeded any any presumption of regular order or good faith.

34:22 In fact, they have created a presumption contrary to that.

34:27 You must assume as a rebuttable

34:30 presumption that what they're doing is retaliation,

34:33 that the cases they're bringing aren't warranted

34:36 because they want the most powerful law

34:37 enforcement agency in the US government to work

34:39 for them personally and no one else.

34:41 And they've been very clear about that.

34:44 Even though Sarah Fitzpatrick is already being sued by Cash Patel and even

34:49 though she may be being criminally investigated by Cash Patel's FBI tonight,

34:53 The Atlantic Sarah Fitzpatrick published yet

34:57 another incredible story about ding ding ding, you guessed it, Cash Patel.

35:02 Now, in this one, eight people familiar with the matter,

35:05 including yet again current and former FBI officials,

35:08 told Fitzpatrick that it is not unusual for Patel

35:11 to travel with a supply of personalized branded bourbon.

35:15 Who among us?

35:16 Now, the 750ml bottle that he travels

35:20 with is engraved with Cash Patel's name and title,

35:23 FBI Director Classy, as well as the symbol of the FBI shield.

35:27 Now, if you look just below the shield on the screen,

35:31 you will see Cash Patel's name yet again,

35:33 but this time spelled his preferred way, of course,

35:37 with a dollar sign instead of an S.

35:40 Again, stay classy, Cash Patel.

35:42 Stay classy.

35:42 Patellis also appears to have signed some bottles,

35:45 writing his signature and then the number nine,

35:48 presumably because he's the ninth person to hold

35:50 the title of the director of the FBI, which leads me to believe he has spent

35:55 an awful lot of time on this particular merch project.

35:59 Right now, Fitzpatrick also writes that Patel has distributed

36:02 these self-branded bottles to staff and civilians while on official business,

36:06 including during at least one FBI event and that Patel has

36:10 even used Justice Department aircraft to transport cases of his bourbon merch.

36:15 Now, when The Atlantic reached out for comment,

36:18 the FBI didn't even dispute that Patel

36:20 has been giving out these branded booze bottles.

36:23 Instead, a spokesperson said that Patellis

36:25 followed all applicable ethical guidelines and pays

36:28 for any personal gifts himself and portrayed the gifting of booze, bourbon,

36:33 personalized bourbon as routine,

36:35 saying that the bottles in question are part of a tradition

36:39 in the FBI that started well over a decade ago.

36:43 Is it now?

36:44 And guess what?

36:45 When Fitzpatrick tried to fact check that statement, it fell completely apart.

36:50 The FBI declined to provide images of bottles

36:53 bearing the names of any past directors, maybe because they don't exist.

36:57 And when Fitzpatrick asked a former senior FBI official if he had

37:02 ever seen any personally branded liquor

37:04 bottles distributed by any previous FBI directors, he burst out laughing.

37:09 Now, the story here is it's not just that Cash Patel allegedly drinks a lot.

37:15 By this point, we've all seen him drinking with our own eyes.

37:19 We all remember that visual.

37:20 The story is that Cash Patel allegedly drinks a ton at work

37:24 as the boss in a workplace that traditionally has had a zero

37:27 tolerance approach to drinking on the job and even the abuse

37:30 of alcohol off duty because it is our chief law enforcement agency.

37:34 As one former FBI agent told Fitzpatrick,

37:37 "The bottles are demoralizing as they suggest one set of standards

37:42 for the FBI's director and another for the rest of the bureau." Now,

37:46 the lawyer for another former agent,

37:48 former assistant director in charge of the FBI's Washington field office,

37:52 Steven Jensen, told Fitzpatrick, quote,

37:54 "There are line agents out there spending

37:56 their nights and weekends trying to finish warrants,

37:58 write reports, plan arrests.

38:00 Yet, the FBI director apparently has the time to design logos,

38:04 go to hockey games, sit for multi-our podcast interviews.

38:07 This is one of the most serious jobs in the country,

38:11 not a vehicle for self-promotion and branding." That's very well stated.

38:15 Now, when Fitzpatrick published her first big scoop about Cash Patel last month,

38:18 part of what was so amazing about it

38:20 was that she had more than two dozen sources.

38:22 I spoke to her that very night that the piece

38:25 came out and she told me that even more

38:28 people from inside the bureau were already trying to talk

38:31 to her, trying to tell her about Cash Patel,

38:33 and they weren't doing that lightly.

38:37 These are not the types of people who

38:40 are willing to speak out outside of the FBI,

38:43 especially right now because Cash Patel is going after people

38:46 with polygraphs in a way that has never happened at the bureau.

38:50 So for it to be this level of alarm,

38:53 this this is people genuinely concerned that America

38:55 is a danger as a result of this conduct and um I feel you know a real

39:01 responsibility to take care of that reporting incredibly carefully.

39:04 The surface district said that those people

39:07 spoke to her last month because they worried

39:09 about the safety of our country with this guy in charge of keeping us safe.

39:14 That guy right there.

39:15 There you go with Christine Gnome.

39:17 And now even with a potential criminal

39:19 investigation to leakers and a massive defamation lawsuit.

39:22 More people have come forward to say that they do

39:25 not think Cash Patel's behavior is fit for his office.

39:27 Now I want I want you to just keep that story in your head.

39:31 I want you to just think about how hard the FBI is working

39:34 to try to catch leakers who say bad things about Cash Patel's personal behavior.

39:38 And I want you to compare that to this.

39:42 Breaking news now.

39:43 A very influential Democrat from Virginia, State Senator Luis Lucas,

39:47 is at the center of a major FBI corruption investigation right now.

39:52 In fact, agents are executing search warrants across the Commonwealth,

39:57 including her office.

39:58 Alex Hogan is in Portsouth, Virginia.

40:01 Alex, now this morning when the FBI raided

40:04 the office of a prominent Democratic state official in Virginia,

40:08 Fox News was on the scene.

40:10 They had camera crews on location ready to film as SWAT teams

40:14 and FBI vans raided Virginia State

40:15 Senator Louise Lucas's office and nearby businesses.

40:18 And that is pretty impressive considering that Portsmith,

40:22 Virginia, you can see it on the map there,

40:25 is about a threehour drive from Fox's office in DC.

40:28 It is 200 miles away.

40:30 Now, maybe Fox just got lucky.

40:32 Maybe they just had a reporter around the corner just kind

40:36 of hanging out in Portsouth and a whole camera crew when it started,

40:39 when the raid started.

40:40 But it strikes me as a lot more plausible that someone

40:43 in the FBI leaked the timing of the raid to them.

40:46 Now, well, Luis Lucas is a huge deal in Virginia politics.

40:50 She's the speaker of the state senate.

40:52 She's primarily known on the national stage for just one thing.

40:55 Earlier this year, she led the effort to redraw the state's congressional maps,

40:59 which would help could help Democrats win another four seats

41:02 in the midterms and counterbalance the gerrymandering

41:05 Republicans have done in other states.

41:06 And the raid was reportedly part of an investigation that opened

41:10 under the Biden administration that examined potential corruption and bribery.

41:14 But beyond that, the Department of Justice has not released any information.

41:18 Now, we don't have, as I've said, any real details on the reasoning for the raid

41:22 or what exactly they're accusing Lucas of doing.

41:25 So, is it plausible there was actual wrongdoing by Lucas?

41:28 Sure, it's plausible, but the context is everything here because

41:32 a source familiar with the matter tells MS Now's Carol Lenic that Trump's former

41:36 US attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia,

41:39 the district where this investigation is likely based,

41:41 believed bringing a case against Louise Lucas would be good for the White House.

41:46 That bringing a bribery case against a prominent Democrat

41:49 before the midterms would be good for the White House,

41:52 even though other prosecutors at the office were

41:54 not sure about the strength of the case.

41:56 Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

41:57 As Virginia's Attorney General Jay Jones put it today,

42:01 "We simply do not have sufficient information

42:04 about the reported FBI activity in Portsouth.

42:06 However, several previous actions of the US Attorney's Office for the Eastern

42:10 District of Virginia have undermined public confidence in that office.

42:14 I urge everyone to exercise restraint and judgment until

42:17 the relevant facts are known in this matter." Now,

42:19 there's a lot of stories going on.

42:21 I just want you to keep that story in your head.

42:23 I want you to think about how the FBI

42:25 raided the office of a prominent Democratic lawmaker right after

42:28 she did something Trump did not like and how

42:31 Fox News just happened to be there to film it.

42:33 I want you to think about that and compare

42:36 it to this because yesterday we learned

42:39 that the Justice Department has agreed to quote return

42:42 or destroy evidence seized from MAGA Republican Congressman Andy Ogles.

42:47 If the name Andy Ogles isn't ringing any bells,

42:49 it's probably because former Congressman George Santos,

42:51 you remember that guy, sort of stole a thunder for a while.

42:54 Because for a while, the two seem to be competing for the title

42:58 of the most prolific liar in Congress.

43:00 I mean, according to local Tennessee news reports,

43:03 Ogul's claimed to be an economist, but it turned out he had only ever

43:07 actually taken one single community college economics course,

43:10 and he barely passed it.

43:11 He claimed to have served for years on the board of directors of a city

43:15 that it turns out does not have a board of directors at all.

43:18 I could go on, but you get the point here, right?

43:22 Back in 2024, the FBI seized Andy Ogle's phone as part of an investigation.

43:26 You see, among the things Andy Ogles

43:28 appears to have lied about were campaign contributions.

43:31 A serious thing to lie about.

43:33 He claimed that he had donated $320,000 to his own campaign back in 2022.

43:37 But it turned out that the congressman appeared to be broke.

43:41 In his financial disclosures,

43:42 he did not appear to even have a checking or a savings account of any kind.

43:46 Now, Ogles later admitted that he had not,

43:48 in fact, donated $320,000 to his own campaign,

43:50 but he never really explained why he apparently lied about all of it.

43:55 And campaign contributions are serious business.

43:57 There are a lot of laws involved.

44:00 So, the FBI seized Ogle's phone.

44:02 That was at the end of 2024.

44:04 But guess what?

44:05 When Trump took office last year, suddenly just 11 days into Trump's new term,

44:11 the career prosecutors handling the case withdrew from it.

44:14 The case was handed up to be run

44:17 completely out of main justice in Washington DC.

44:20 Now, at the same time, Ogles was in the running,

44:23 he put himself in the running for, I should say,

44:25 a new highly competitive title, biggest suckup to Donald Trump.

44:29 And he did a lot to try to get there.

44:32 He introduced a bill to give Trump the power to buy Greenland.

44:35 He nominated Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize.

44:38 And maybe most amazingly,

44:40 Ogles proposed a constitutional amendment to allow Trump to serve a third term.

44:45 He even specifically worded that amendment so it would only

44:48 allow third terms from presidents who hadn't served two consecutive terms,

44:52 meaning it would let Trump serve a third term, but not Obama.

44:56 There you go.

44:57 And now after all that sucking up,

44:59 the investigation to Ogle's lying about a massive campaign contribution

45:03 seems to be just quietly going away in a vacuum.

45:08 Each of these stories individually are reason for concern about what happened,

45:11 what is happening at the Justice Department right now.

45:14 But taken together, they are a blaring alarm.

45:17 And when you put them in the context of the past year, it's all the worse.

45:23 The Justice Department has investigated

45:24 or charged so many perceived Trump enemies.

45:26 It is genuinely getting hard to track and we may miss people in this list.

45:31 Former FBI director James Comey, former CIA Director John Brennan,

45:34 New York Attorney General Leticia James,

45:36 Senator Mark Kelly, Senator Alyssa Slackin, Congresswoman Maggie Goodlander,

45:39 Congressman Jason Crowe, Congresswoman Christy Hulahan, Congressman Chris Duzio,

45:43 former National Security Adviser John Bolton,

45:45 Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell, Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook,

45:48 Senator Adam Schiff, former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie,

45:51 Minnesota Governor Tim Walls, Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Fry, St.

45:54 Mayor uh St.

45:56 Paula Mayor Kelly her, Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison,

45:59 Henipin County Attorney Mary Morardti.

46:00 The list is just unfathomable at this point, but the pattern is clear.

46:05 Trump is using the Justice Department to help

46:08 his friends and go after his enemies.

46:11 Last night, former President Barack Obama was issued he issued a stark

46:15 warning on exactly this issue during the interview with Steven Coar.

46:20 We can survive a lot.

46:22 bad policy, funky elections.

46:24 There there's a bunch of stuff that, you know, we we can overcome.

46:30 We can't overcome the politization of the criminal justice system.

46:35 The the the awesome power of the state.

46:37 You you can't have a situation in which uh whoever's in charge of the government

46:43 starts using that to go after their political enemies or reward their friends.