Stop Apologizing for Being Direct — Emma Grede

0:00 Before we get into it, quick note.

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0:21 All right, let's get into it.

0:23 Welcome to the Jefferson Fischer podcast.

0:25 Today, my guest is my friend Emma Greed.

0:28 She is the founding partner of Skiims as well

0:31 as the co-founder and CEO of Good American

0:35 and has a roster of businesses and foundation

0:38 boards and shows that she is a part of.

0:41 This woman is incredible.

0:44 Today's episode started with me confessing something big to Emma

0:47 and that is the first time I met her at her podcast Aspire,

0:51 which is in the Skims office there in LA, I was actually intimidated.

0:55 before I even met her, all of her team showed up and let me tell you what,

0:58 she has a very firm control over what exactly she's doing in business.

1:03 And so, this was my very first interaction with her.

1:05 So, we get to have fun with that.

1:06 Also, she has a book coming out called Start with Yourself:

1:09 A New Vision for Work and Life, which is out today.

1:12 The links down there in the show notes.

1:14 We also took a deep dive on being direct.

1:16 What does it mean?

1:17 How to do it without apology and with confidence.

1:20 We talked family, we talked career, we talked business,

1:23 and we also talked about that other B- word,

1:25 balance, if there even is such a thing.

1:28 I hope you enjoy.

1:30 I have to tell you, when I was on your podcast, was that few months ago?

1:34 Almost a year ago.

1:35 It was what was it?

1:36 It was almost You were literally like

1:39 the first one of the first interviews I ever did.

1:41 And I was like, I cannot believe I'm speaking to Jefferson as like day two.

1:47 No, it was true.

1:48 It was true.

1:49 I get up there and I, you know, I don't wear skims.

1:54 I don't wear I don't, you know,

1:57 the jeans that you So I get up there and this is I

2:04 think it was it might have been at Skiims like one of the places.

2:07 Um, obviously I need to update on on the brand.

2:12 I was going to say clearly clearly you

2:14 need or you need to update the underwear closet.

2:17 That's what I was.

2:17 Yeah.

2:17 Yeah.

2:18 I need to I need to upgrade my shapewear.

2:19 I'm like, why don't we wear skins?

2:21 I don't understand.

2:23 Hey, the new collab.

2:24 Okay.

2:24 So, anyway, I get up there,

2:26 get off the elevator, and everybody was just buzzing.

2:32 All right.

2:33 And it felt like the movie Devil Wears Prada,

2:36 which I've only seen once, but it was like

2:40 I was thinking like, okay, who is this woman who's coming?

2:43 I was like, am I was like I know.

2:45 I was like, "Oh my gosh, should I be worried of like because everybody

2:49 in your office was like had it down to a tea,

2:52 looked serious and was moving and going

2:55 and eight different things are happening at once

2:57 and all I know it was like she's almost here." Emma's and I was like,

3:01 "What is happening?" And I remember I remember to do that for you.

3:05 Yeah.

3:05 I remember being in the little podcast

3:07 like beautiful little waiting room and they're like,

3:10 "She's Miss Greed's about to be here with you." And I was like,

3:12 "Oh my Okay." Everybody was like, "You better be ready." and you come in, okay,

3:17 and you were the most like charming, laughing,

3:21 just spurting out, just the most casual, easygoing.

3:26 That being said, also the one that I could tell, oh,

3:29 if she wanted to, she could crank the temperature on everybody even more.

3:33 Like, I knew in the background I was like,

3:35 she's she's one of the most charming people I've ever met.

3:38 But I know deep down this is not somebody that you you mess around with.

3:42 So, I can say living proof.

3:44 me in one.

3:46 Yeah.

3:46 Yeah.

3:47 I am living proof that the stuff the book that you have,

3:50 Start with Yourself, works.

3:52 So,

3:53 listen, it's so true.

3:54 My podcast is in a cupboard in my office

3:57 and it's the only way it would work for me, right?

4:00 Like, it has to be right there.

4:02 And when I interviewed you, it was right in the like the super super early days.

4:07 I'd interviewed J.

4:08 Sherry and then you and I was like, "Oh my god,

4:11 like this is so crazy." But again, of course,

4:13 because of who you are, immediately put Cardi B.

4:16 Yeah.

4:16 Is that the me and Cardi B is a very a very natural.

4:21 Same same.

4:22 They're just lovely people with the with the with the voice that just puts you

4:26 That's because we can Oh, it's the same thing.

4:31 Exactly.

4:31 Same.

4:31 Same.

4:32 I'll tell Cardi.

4:33 Yeah, please.

4:34 Your book.

4:35 All right.

4:35 Start with yourself.

4:36 At first I thought, you know, I got it and I said, "Okay,

4:40 this is is this is it almost wrong

4:43 to have that mentality." And I think it's that contrast,

4:47 Emma, that made me go, "Okay,

4:49 I'm going to keep reading and understanding that no,

4:52 it's it's about making sure that you can't control everybody else,

4:58 but you can control yourself." And when you say,

5:01 "Before I blame this, before I blame

5:03 that, before I start trying to fix everybody else,

5:06 how about you start fixing yourself?" And so

5:09 once I had that type of perspective switch,

5:13 I said, "Okay, this is this is really great." And we're

5:15 going to keep talking about the book throughout the episode,

5:17 but is you have just such a depth of experience that I

5:23 don't think as many people appreciate just the level of things

5:30 that you have to you get to not have to, you

5:34 get to manage and be responsible for and balance and and juggles.

5:41 And I know a lot of people ask you questions about what you do.

5:45 The first question I want to ask Emma is what you don't do.

5:50 So what are some things that you find you maybe in meeting with somebody?

5:56 What what do you think is in in let's put it in the business context first.

6:00 What's a red flag that you see that others might miss in business relationships?

6:09 O, you know, first of all, I'm gonna first of all,

6:12 I'm so happy to speak to you today and I'm so happy that I

6:15 get to speak to you in this in this context around the book.

6:18 Um, you know, I there are so many red flags,

6:21 but a big one for me is when it starts on what do you do?

6:25 You know, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

6:27 What?

6:28 Like, hello, who are you?

6:30 How are you?

6:30 Like, what do you know?

6:32 Um, to me, that's always a red flag.

6:34 And you know I think that in business you can understand so much about a person

6:40 from that initial introduction like you know when

6:44 someone sees you know when someone sees past you

6:47 and I'm a real people person like I

6:49 will not remember your name but I will remember

6:53 how your grandfather came into the country but that's

6:56 also because I bother to ask you that question.

6:58 And so to me, I like to figure out in business

7:02 or otherwise like the essence of a person like who are you?

7:05 Like how do you come here in this room?

7:08 And so when somebody starts like trying to figure out like

7:11 what's in it for them like how can I help them?

7:14 That's like a red flag to me.

7:16 I'm like you're already out.

7:17 It's already over me and you when it starts really superficial.

7:21 When it starts really superficial.

7:22 I can see that.

7:23 Yeah.

7:23 And I think that's something that the older you get that changes, right?

7:26 I I am, you know, I'm 40.

7:28 I keep telling everyone I'm 42.

7:30 I'm 43.

7:31 My husband had to come and stop me the other day.

7:33 He's like, I've heard you say it three times today.

7:35 You're 43.

7:36 So, I'm 43 now.

7:38 And I think that part of even this journey of that I've

7:41 just been on writing this book for the last couple of years.

7:44 Like, you you get close to yourself.

7:46 You start to understand so much about who it is that you are.

7:50 And so I'm just very interested in in understanding

7:54 other people and what makes them uniquely who they are.

7:58 And you said in in your book uh and I've

8:02 seen some other interviews because I listen to you too, Emma.

8:05 It's not just it's not just one way.

8:06 It's not one way.

8:08 It's not just one way.

8:08 It's a it's a it's a it's a two-way road of understanding also the value

8:14 or at least not not being afraid to try

8:18 and mask the fact that some things are transactional

8:22 where you don't have to because it's almost

8:25 worse when somebody starts with the the gloss

8:28 the fake when you know they're they're going to be asking for something.

8:33 What you're saying is just own that.

8:35 I would rather you own that than try and be genuine.

8:39 So, do you see that as a something that you go,

8:42 I I can already tell that they're wanting something

8:45 from me and it's how how does that process for you?

8:49 Yeah.

8:49 And look, I I don't want to shy away from that because as a woman in business,

8:53 I think that often we're kind of trained

8:56 to kind of like have this almost like performative politeness,

9:01 soft ambition idea that we're not trying to get something.

9:04 I'm like, we're here to make money.

9:06 That's the purpose of business.

9:07 Like, that's okay in that context.

9:10 And so, I don't like to I'm a very

9:13 straightforward person with a very high moral baseline.

9:17 You know exactly what I want because I told you,

9:20 not because I'm trying to hide behind something

9:22 and then like sneak it around the back.

9:24 I think that that intentionality of being forthright,

9:29 being open, saying what you need, what your expectations are,

9:33 it actually takes all of the all of the crap out of business.

9:37 And so I wrote this book, you know, by the way,

9:41 I wanted people to use, not just to buy buy and and to read.

9:45 I was like, how do you create something that is useful?

9:48 And and it's about self leadership.

9:50 It's about this idea that we can't control what's happening in the world.

9:54 We can't control what other people are going to do,

9:56 but we can control the way we come into a space,

10:00 the way we behave, the energy we put in.

10:04 Right?

10:04 And so I think that that is really important and that's

10:06 important in business and it's important in life more generally.

10:10 I get such a treasure uh talking to you.

10:12 Now this is the second time we've we've had the chance

10:15 to uh to meet and of course we've communicated since.

10:19 But what a treasure for me is I get to talk to somebody who has such

10:25 a roster of experience and a depth

10:28 of success in running businesses and somebody who is

10:33 a woman and a woman of color and to say okay I know that when

10:37 somebody asks me a white male say how do you how do you say things direct

10:44 all right and I know my perspective is just one and I

10:48 will get comments which are very wellreceived of that wouldn't work for me.

10:55 That doesn't work in the in I'm a woman that's not going to work for me.

10:58 You don't understand what that's like.

11:00 And the answer is I do not know what that's like.

11:02 That's correct.

11:03 And so here I have to me an expert that I

11:07 couldn't think is any more positioned for this kind of advice.

11:10 So in your world as a businesswoman, how do you speak with directness?

11:19 just like a white guy.

11:22 No, let's not do that, please.

11:26 Here's the thing.

11:27 You know, it's really funny because I feel like uh this I mean,

11:31 to be honest, so many of my teachers have been white men, right?

11:35 I'm married to a white man.

11:37 Um, a lot of my investors are white men.

11:41 And in so many ways, you know,

11:43 early I modeled the behavior that I saw all around me.

11:47 I think I'm a really straight shooter and I think

11:50 a lot of that was informed from where I was born.

11:52 I was born in East London which is like the hood, you know,

11:56 and so um this idea of having a high moral baseline,

12:00 I didn't realize I thought that was my personality.

12:02 I didn't realize that came from where I was from that you tell the truth,

12:07 you you know, you're true to your word.

12:09 If you say you're going to do something that you do it.

12:11 Um and I carried all of those traits into business.

12:15 And I think that so much of business is

12:17 about how you behave and not what you say.

12:20 It's like how do you follow up?

12:22 How do you leave people feeling?

12:26 How do you, you know, kind of behave in any given transaction?

12:30 It's never about like one individual moment.

12:33 And so I think that what I've built uh in my reputation over the years

12:38 is the ability and the freedom to be

12:42 really forthright because people know who I am.

12:44 They know that I'm going to come good on my word.

12:46 They know that I am um going to do exactly

12:49 what I say um and that I'm not full of it.

12:53 And so I really have kind of spent my career um not so much watching what I say,

13:00 but watching what I do.

13:02 Um and that has really really served me well.

13:05 And what's so interesting, you know,

13:06 now that I'm on this this kind of book tour,

13:09 um you know, I've met three journalists that used to work for me.

13:13 Three?

13:13 No way.

13:16 And thankfully thankfully they're writing really nice things about me

13:20 because you know it's like how you treat people and how

13:23 you leave people feeling like that has the biggest impact

13:26 than than any kind of single thing that you can say.

13:30 And so I think that I um I don't know I try

13:33 to be very just who I am and I make no apologies for it.

13:37 I think everybody always knew that I was very ambitious.

13:41 Um, and I have been, I think,

13:43 working away for the last 25 years to make that a more attractive term for women

13:49 because it isn't used in the same way for women as it's used for men.

13:54 Um, and I'd kind of like to change that a little bit.

13:57 I think you are.

13:58 I definitely think you are.

13:59 She's ambitious in like a That is such a quote.

14:03 Have you did you come up with that?

14:05 That the uh I don't watch what I say, I watch what I do.

14:08 Like that is No, I didn't.

14:09 But I'm taking it.

14:10 Did you just Did you just come up with that right now?

14:13 I just came up with that now.

14:15 Okay.

14:15 Okay, Emma, that is that is such a killer line.

14:19 Like, you need your social team.

14:22 All right, listen to me.

14:22 I know they're listening right now.

14:23 I'm going to tell them what Jefferson said.

14:27 Do you They need to put this in a quote.

14:29 I don't watch what I say.

14:30 I watch what I do.

14:32 Like, that is that is t-shirt mugw worthy.

14:35 You need to We're doing it.

14:36 We're doing it because you said so.

14:39 Yeah.

14:39 No.

14:39 Okay.

14:40 I think that's that's a great point of ambition seems

14:43 to be have certain connotations with it when it comes to men.

14:48 Ambition seems to be almost a negative trait when it comes to women.

14:53 And I hear you saying, "I want to I want to change I want to change

14:56 that." And I think you're a living example of that.

15:00 When I hear you say okay to be very direct with somebody has a lot more of not

15:05 just what I say it's what they can see me do and see me follow up on.

15:11 I want to know this is me piece.

15:13 This is where I'm loving this.

15:14 I get to kind of tease out how Emma thinks about things.

15:18 So when you're saying okay you're walking into the office you have a room full.

15:23 You know it's crazy.

15:24 Your schedule's packed.

15:25 You know when you are about to enter into okay I have that breath of moment

15:30 I just got out of the car I'm about to go into the the room where is

15:34 your mind in that place is it how how

15:38 do you how do you balance the the performative

15:41 of I have to look the part and and balance the personal of embodying the part?

15:48 That is such a good question because all

15:51 of us we come with so much baggage, right?

15:53 And when you're a mom of four,

15:55 like my mornings are so intense, you know, by by 8:00 a.m.

15:59 I have trained.

16:00 I've probably done one kid's hair.

16:03 I've had half a breakfast.

16:04 I've got, you know, like so much going on around me.

16:08 And I get in the car, I'm on a call, and I walk in the office,

16:11 and it's like, you know, the first the first like meeting.

16:15 I think the thing that I've really learned

16:16 to do is to bring myself like into any situation.

16:22 Like I'm not a multitasker.

16:24 Like I do the thing that's in front of me and I give it everything.

16:28 Like I am big on eye contact.

16:32 If you pick up your phone in the middle of a meeting with me, like it's over.

16:37 It's just over.

16:38 I need like undivided attention.

16:41 But in return, I give undivided attention.

16:45 I'm a real like in the room person.

16:47 And that is, by the way,

16:49 a superpower in business because when you give undivided attention to matters,

16:54 they get solved quickly.

16:55 Like I'm not going to have 27 emails.

16:56 Like don't like everybody knows soon as an emails past two paragraphs,

17:00 I'm like I'm dyslexic.

17:01 I'm not reading that.

17:02 So it's like I want the speed.

17:04 I want the connection and I want the concentration of like the whole thing.

17:10 But I'm really somebody who's very mindful.

17:12 Like I know I have a very commanding presence and so I know

17:17 that the way I walk in has an effect on everyone like you know everyone will

17:22 tell you in your office I walk in and I'm like morning everyone and I'm

17:26 also like I'm a chatty Kathy so I'm like what did you do this weekend?

17:30 How was your Easter Sunday?

17:32 Like did you do an egg hunt?

17:33 like you know it's like I do that because I am

17:37 I like to be with the people and connect with everyone

17:39 and understand where are we and then we can get into it

17:43 and then we can be like really all about the business.

17:46 But I um I think it's important to just have that level of presence

17:51 and and that is a a gift when we live how we live right now.

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19:01 And now back to the episode.

19:03 Do you think presence is a is a learned skill or is

19:06 it something that you think you were born with in East London?

19:11 You know, if I didn't have my wits about me then that was problematic.

19:15 You needed to you needed to be present.

19:17 You can't be away with the fairies there.

19:19 Um that's for sure.

19:21 I think that it's become more attuned since

19:25 I had kids because kids don't need that much.

19:28 But what they do need is like all of you.

19:31 You know, you can't be like half having an email, half having a conversation.

19:35 And because my time is really finite with them, you know,

19:38 I don't take my phone out of my bag when

19:40 I come home from work because that couple of hours,

19:42 that dinner time, bedtime, story time,

19:45 that needs to be like un encumbered with whatever might be going on in my day,

19:50 which is usually like a disaster.

19:53 I only get the problems now.

19:54 You know, my my whole day is a series of problems.

19:57 So, I do really think that that is it's a gift that you give yourself.

20:01 is a gift that you give the people around you,

20:03 but is probably like it's just so important and it's an underrated thing

20:08 to just be like single-minded and and and thoughtful and like in the moment,

20:15 but it is it is a superpower.

20:19 If we could poll your team because I know you have a lot of people

20:25 in you know the eye of your hurricane uh that is Emma.

20:29 I if if we were to poll,

20:31 how many you polling?

20:32 Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds.

20:34 The immediate Let's say let's say Yeah.

20:36 Let's say you're top 20.

20:38 Let's say you're top 20.

20:39 Okay.

20:39 You know what what would they say in terms of communication that you excel at

20:46 and some things that Yeah, you could do a little bit better.

20:51 I mean that they would say I am clear.

20:54 Like nobody is ever wondering what's Emma thinking.

20:57 like I already told you.

20:58 Like we're not waiting for an assessment.

21:01 No, it's like I already told you like the and and I

21:04 think that that is really important like I'm in constant communication

21:07 and when you run businesses having clarity about the goals and I

21:12 think that this has to go beyond the top 20, right?

21:14 It's like I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people

21:17 and they all need to be going towards a common goal.

21:21 And so when I express something and when I

21:25 have a set of priorities for any given business,

21:28 I need everybody working towards those.

21:30 And so having that clarity is really important.

21:33 So I think that people think I'm clear.

21:35 They think I'm firm, right?

21:37 I don't really suffer falls.

21:39 But I think that they would say I'm fair.

21:41 I think the majority of people would say, "Wow, she was extremely demanding,

21:46 but I learned a lot and she was really fair." Um,

21:49 on the flip side of that, I think they'd say I'm really repetitive because

21:52 I repeat myself all the time because that's about clarity of the vision, right?

21:56 And I'm going to double double treble down.

21:59 So, somebody comes to me and then I don't know what thing to work on.

22:01 I'm like, wait a minute.

22:02 We have the dirt and the dirt and the dirt.

22:04 So, drop everything else and do something

22:06 that works to one of those three things.

22:07 So, I'm definitely a repeater of ideas and a repeater just

22:12 in the sense of like I think it's really important for clarity.

22:16 I like that you said I'm very firm, but I'm also very fair.

22:21 I find that that's a characteristic.

22:24 You know, I I come from a family of teachers.

22:27 You know, my mom's a a teacher, my sister's a teacher,

22:30 and that was one thing my mom would always say.

22:33 like she was known as kind of the the scary teacher uh at school,

22:38 but she at the end of the year all of her students

22:42 would love her because she was they realized it was for their good.

22:46 It was for their benefit that that firmness and I think you

22:50 you hit on something true is that if you are not firm, you will get walked over.

22:58 How do you like you said, you don't suffer fools.

23:00 What's that mindset that you have when

23:03 you're walking into the the rooms that you're

23:07 walking into in business to know like what's

23:11 what's the secret to being firm in communication?

23:15 I think the secret is um I would say that it is consistency, right?

23:22 I don't think that you can be flip-floppy and firm like that.

23:27 That's not going to work.

23:28 you have to be really super consistent.

23:31 Um an element of fairness.

23:34 So I think that you you know and and I

23:36 do think that the two things go hand in hand

23:38 because people need to understand where am I in all

23:41 of this like what bit is uh my responsibility?

23:46 what part is uh what part like and when I say fairness because you

23:52 know again like so little in the world is fair but when you have

23:56 consistency and when you're fair with people you have you know I did every

24:02 job Jefferson it's like I really was a person that worked their way up.

24:05 I started in a cupboard in fashion PR.

24:07 I packed the boxes.

24:09 I packed the samples.

24:10 I wrote the notes.

24:11 Then I got onto a desk.

24:13 Then you know you're kind of like running around

24:14 back show at fashion shows and like laying flooring.

24:17 I worked in production.

24:19 It's like I did every single thing on the way

24:21 up which gives you this unbelievable appreciation of every person's

24:26 part in a job or in a production or in a uh

24:29 right now you know it's like the clothing organizations.

24:32 I understand the junior merchants job because I was there.

24:35 It's like I I know that stuff.

24:37 Um, and I think that when you are a firm person,

24:41 coming in with a level of understanding and appreciation for what every single

24:46 person brings and delivers is a really good place because people feel seen.

24:53 And often times, um, the work isn't fair, right?

24:56 It it never feels that way.

24:57 But if you feel that you're seen and you're appreciated and there

25:02 is an understanding about what it is that you uniquely bring,

25:06 then I think that that changes everything.

25:08 And I think that I get and have gotten to where I've

25:12 gotten to because people have an understanding that I wasn't given anything,

25:16 that I worked for it and I appreciate them and I have an understanding of them.

25:21 Um and and and in that way I think people work extremely hard

25:27 for me and towards the things that I need because they feel that intrinsically.

25:34 I'm going to come back to this part that we talked

25:37 about um specifically on how to speak with directness, being firm,

25:44 having ambition as a as a woman again because these are things that I can't,

25:50 you know, I can't express nearly as well as as somebody else can.

25:54 And so, you know, my question is like when

25:57 you see all these like you've been on Shark Tank,

26:00 when when you've seen all these men, okay, saying this is how to do business,

26:06 this is how to do it, and you come in here going, "Yeah,

26:09 I can do it just as well." And and be able to spin five plates at the same time.

26:16 You know, what what do what do you want to say to those men in the moment?

26:22 What what are they what are we you know missing when it comes to is

26:29 there like an unlock to say this is a special way or is let me ask

26:36 I'm going to I'm talking right now because I I I find this subject I

26:41 I desperately desire to be able to help

26:45 people and especially women speak with more directness

26:49 and there's sometimes I feel like I miss the me and it's because I haven't been

26:54 where they've been and I haven't stood where

26:56 they stood and that sometimes makes me feel helpless.

27:01 And so when you give advice to women, what do you tell them?

27:06 What am I missing?

27:07 No.

27:08 Well, I first of all I the idea that you even think

27:12 about it like that I think is such an excellent starting point.

27:15 And what I wrote about in the book in start with yourself

27:18 is this idea of not allowing your emotions to do your decision- making.

27:25 And I think for a lot of women that is like a default, right?

27:30 Uh we are people pleasers.

27:33 We have a lot of fear connected to how we might be perceived or uh or or valued.

27:42 We have a lot of guilt, right?

27:44 like mom guilt is an actual real thing.

27:47 And so in this book, so much of what I talk about is

27:51 how emotions will kind of dictate your decision- making.

27:56 And I think that what I wanted to be able to convey is this idea that often

28:01 times women have been socially conditioned

28:03 to avoid the exact behaviors that create wealth,

28:08 that create visibility, that create leadership opportunities.

28:12 And men don't have quite the same

28:16 um kind of difficulties uh in expressing themselves

28:22 or in managing their emotions um which doesn't

28:26 impede their decision- making in the same way.

28:29 And so what I wanted to do was kind of create a book

28:32 that really dismantled a lot of the lies that we've been sold about this stuff.

28:37 This is supposed to be like a wakeup call

28:39 for ambitious women because if you want power and you

28:42 want money and you want a career and you

28:44 want a family and you want all of those things,

28:46 you're not going to get that kind of hiding behind soft ambition.

28:50 We have to have audacity.

28:52 We have to get okay with the fact that there's going to be

28:55 some discomfort that that discomfort might be from somebody else around you.

29:00 Um and and Jefferson what is important right now and what I

29:04 want to be clear about and men can agree with this as well

29:07 as women but I think that we are desperate for more

29:11 women in positions of power right now not just in business

29:14 but in our economies in our governments politically um it's really clear

29:19 to me and I think there is just a set of rules

29:22 that exist in the culture that mean that um women feel

29:27 and and they're deeply ingrained thoughts

29:29 right like deeply ingrained thoughts that exist.

29:32 And so what I wanted to do was be um you know a model

29:36 for what is possible because I really believe

29:38 like you can't be what you don't see.

29:40 And if we're constantly put this kind of idea of like to be a good woman there

29:45 are all of these things that you have

29:47 to do that's really going to hold women back.

29:49 So um what I tried to do was just have a level of honesty about what

29:56 it takes and what in our own behavior can change and what in our own style

30:00 of communication about the things that we really

30:03 want has to change in order to to kind

30:06 of shift the mentality like really forward like

30:09 that's what I really care about right now.

30:12 Before we get going I want to talk to you about element.

30:15 I know that in my busy lifestyle,

30:17 there's something that has to do with hydration

30:20 that I cannot seem sometimes to get a hold of.

30:22 I'm just drinking enough water.

30:24 My body will just go, "Coffee.

30:26 You should have coffee." And my body also says,

30:29 "But please give me water." And so,

30:32 one solution, big solution that we've had in my family is Element.

30:37 LM NT.

30:38 Element provides electrolytes.

30:39 It's like this little packet.

30:40 They come in different ways, but this one that I like to have is just a little

30:44 salt packet that you rip out and you pour it into your water.

30:47 I do about half so it's not too salty.

30:49 I like the lemonade flavor.

30:51 And I love it anytime after a workout,

30:53 during a workout, after a run, when I'm on the go.

30:55 I like it because it's just really no mess.

30:57 Now, my kids, they love it.

30:59 They call it salty water.

31:01 They really like the salt version.

31:02 I'm not a carbonation fan, but they are.

31:05 And so, they love it every time that they get it.

31:07 In fact, they treat it as almost like a dessert.

31:10 So they will have dinner and then my son will beg for salty water.

31:15 And so we let him have probably about half of it because

31:17 he doesn't need to drink too much before he goes to bed obviously.

31:20 And so that's how we love it.

31:22 Element.

31:22 It is just made for people that are on a mission just like you and just like me.

31:27 And they're offering my listeners a free sample pack with any order.

31:31 You can head on over to drinklnt.com/jfferson and try riskfree today.

31:37 That's element smart hydration for people going places.

31:40 And now back to the episode.

31:42 And let me tell you, Emma, you did it.

31:45 Okay.

31:46 All that you wanted to do with this book.

31:48 All right.

31:48 You You did it.

31:49 I What I really appreciate um that you do in your book

31:53 and I have in my hands right now is you have these old thoughts

31:57 and the new thoughts, which I thought was great.

32:00 It is so good at not only do we get

32:03 a baseline of where you've come from, what all you've been through,

32:07 what you do with your your husband and your kids and the life

32:10 and the balance and everything is really how how you see things and what you do.

32:16 What I what I think is so well done is you will

32:19 lay out these old thoughts and we all know what that is.

32:22 These old scripts in our head of I'm not going to be enough.

32:27 I have to do this.

32:28 I the only way to achieve X is I have to go through

32:32 Z and Y and then you come up with these new thoughts and you

32:35 have these new thoughts right after it after you kind of give the the lesson

32:39 and the new thought is what turns the old script on its head.

32:43 you say I you don't have to do that.

32:44 And you know what?

32:45 I'm a living example of that.

32:47 And so many of your lessons when it comes to career,

32:52 when it comes to family, when it comes to life balance,

32:56 it it is uh a series of new scripts

33:02 and new thoughts that I think are are excellent.

33:05 Can I can I share with you one of my favorite?

33:07 Yeah, tell me.

33:08 Yeah.

33:08 Okay.

33:09 So this is one of the ones you have in career

33:12 and this this is one that hit me is the old thought is you're

33:17 owed mentorship and opportunity and so I thought like okay that's boy that's

33:25 true in my life of times where at least in the legal profession

33:30 you know you're you're it's a sense of you're

33:32 owed certain things and there's that can feel that way

33:36 like people will go oh I'm not going to I'm

33:38 not going chase this because nobody's doing it for me.

33:42 I guess nobody wants to help me.

33:43 It's just all me and I'm not going to waste the time.

33:46 And and the new thought that you have after you talk about the story is

33:50 you are the creator of your own career

33:52 and the responsibility for it is yours, too.

33:55 And I thought, okay, Emma, all right, Emma, that was good.

33:59 Like, it was so good of like, hey, you nobody else is going to to do that.

34:04 And I think a lot of that and I want to go into this real quick.

34:08 So is you are the oldest I believe of four.

34:14 Yeah.

34:14 Okay.

34:14 And you had a single mother.

34:17 Mhm.

34:17 Okay.

34:17 And I'm curious, you know, how much of the mindset that you have.

34:22 The the title of the book has to do

34:25 with that girl who didn't finish high school,

34:29 went to work, is was the I'm the oldest of four, right?

34:34 you are that that Yeah, I'm the oldest of four.

34:36 Yeah, I love that.

34:37 This is why we're kindred souls.

34:39 This is it.

34:39 This is it.

34:40 That's right.

34:41 These old souls, right, that you didn't really have like me like we

34:47 we didn't really have a you didn't really have a childhood.

34:49 You know, there's gaps of your life that you

34:52 had to be the the little parent, the little spouse.

34:56 You had to take on opportunity.

34:58 You had to take on things.

34:59 you had to forego other enjoyment um for the work that was ahead.

35:05 And I find a lot of these principles that you teach um are, you know,

35:12 lessons that are straight out of your your life and how you do things.

35:17 Now, I think that you're completely right about that.

35:20 And you know, it's so interesting because

35:23 so many people have asked me that question.

35:24 Oh my god, what was it like?

35:26 You know, I never for one second felt sorry for myself as a kid.

35:31 Like I never imagined like that this thing was put upon

35:33 me because where I come from like you just helped your mom.

35:37 Like what are you going to do?

35:38 You know, it's like yeah, I could make, you know,

35:41 a a dinner for six people when I was 12.

35:45 But like that's been a really useful skill.

35:48 I could clean the house.

35:49 I could, you know, do a parent teacher conference at 12 years old.

35:52 you know, I was raised in a way where there was no other choice.

35:57 And so, there's a maturity level that comes with that.

36:00 There's a lot of uh, you know, less, I guess,

36:03 less forgiving and and less uh uh kind of great things that come out of that.

36:10 But at the end of the day,

36:12 it was a net positive for me because by the time I was in the workplace,

36:16 which again was very young because I dropped

36:18 out of high school, I had such a bar.

36:21 Like I knew how to get things done.

36:24 I was such a selfarter because nobody ever woke me up for, you know, school.

36:29 I had to wake everybody else up and make pack lunches

36:31 and iron school shirts and get three kids out of the house.

36:35 Sometimes I would just go home and watch Oprah.

36:37 I wouldn't even bother.

36:38 Um but you know for me it was not an imposition.

36:41 It was like I got a head start in life because this was my reality.

36:46 And um when I got into the workplace I was like wow I am so capable.

36:52 I'm so bloody capable.

36:54 And so I think that when you take you know and I think about this with my own

36:58 kids you know because I do have four

37:00 and nobody they they have everything done for them.

37:03 Um, and and somehow it kind of robs you

37:05 from like like who you're going to be, you know,

37:07 and I'm like trying to I'm not trying to manufacture

37:10 hardships for my kids that sometimes I think I should do,

37:13 you know, like they would be so much more capable.

37:15 But I think it's a huge part of who I am and why I have done what I

37:20 did because there was there was no one there

37:24 was no one out there coming to get me.

37:26 I took full responsibility for myself.

37:28 And at the end of the day, this book is about self leadership.

37:32 It's about self- responsibility and there's really

37:34 great stuff that is out there when

37:38 you suddenly have that realization like there was no guy coming to rescue me.

37:43 There was no boss, there was no mentor.

37:46 I learned from Oprah.

37:48 I learned from people in the magazines.

37:50 I learned from like the bosses at my work experience.

37:54 And and when I say learned, like I would just copy those people.

37:58 That's what I did.

37:58 Like Oprah would say something good.

38:00 I would write it down and I would copy it.

38:02 For years I sat um with my boss like behind me so she could

38:07 see my screen and that was the early days of online shopping and everyone

38:11 in the office was like how annoying is it that you sit in front

38:14 of this woman because you can't do

38:16 your online shopping and I was like it's amazing.

38:19 I write down everything this woman says and when she has a good line I use

38:24 it on my new business calls and it was like you know no one was coming

38:27 to mentor me and so to me especially now that I get asked like could you mentor

38:32 me and I do I look up like so many of my staff and so many women

38:36 I do a call every day on the way to the office 8:00 I get on the phone

38:40 I speak to somebody for half an hour um but you can't wait for that stuff

38:44 right you can't let it stop you and what I wanted to make sure people understood

38:49 is we have to make sure that our biggest enemy is not living in our own head.

38:54 You know, like I have this friend and I quote her in the book Dar Van Fenberg

38:58 and she says the most important relationship you'll

39:01 ever have is the relationship you have with yourself.

39:04 Like I know I can talk myself into or out of anything.

39:08 And so when it comes to like looking for people to help me, I'm like, well,

39:11 I better be helping myself first cuz if one of these magical

39:14 people ever does come to help me, I want to be ready.

39:18 And it just turns out that that wasn't my experience.

39:20 And so it's like I feel like I have gifted myself my whole life, right?

39:25 It's like I was the best I had.

39:27 So it's like I just had to work with that because there was nothing else.

39:30 And I feel like that's not a bad place.

39:33 It's not a bad thing.

39:35 No, not a bad thing at all.

39:36 No.

39:36 I I when I read that you were the oldest of four,

39:39 I was like, "Okay, a lot of this is making sense here."

39:42 I think anybody who's the oldest child, you kind of have that old soul,

39:46 you know.

39:47 Yeah.

39:48 Mentality of you know your parents didn't have to I mean

39:52 they didn't have to ask me to do anything.

39:53 You just just did it.

39:55 Very different from the youngest that that we have.

39:59 So yeah, it I I um I relate to that and what I find is so instructive

40:06 to me and and everyone is that if you

40:10 think that opportunities should be just put on your plate.

40:17 You're just that's the wrong thinking.

40:20 It's the wrong thinking.

40:22 You have to grab your own plate and start finding places that are serving food.

40:27 like you have you have to go and uh there's

40:30 a sense of hunger I think that you have to have.

40:32 There's a sense of hunger.

40:33 Listen, you you might need to go out and kill an animal.

40:36 Like I don't know where you got like where you going from.

40:38 There might not be any shops open.

40:40 There might not you know it's like you got to do what you got to do.

40:43 But you know there's something amazing about

40:47 doing like making the best of yourself.

40:50 You know, there's something incredible when you go, God,

40:53 like I came from here and now this is what life looks like.

40:57 Like that's incredible, but it just takes such a long time.

41:01 And I feel like, you know, again,

41:04 I speak about this so much in the book because feel like

41:07 social media has kind of conditioned us into this idea that, you know,

41:10 you can listen your way to success,

41:12 that that somehow you can consume your way to success.

41:16 And I'm like, no, you can't.

41:18 You got to work.

41:19 You don't have any choice, you know.

41:22 You got to like do something that you kind

41:24 of don't like and get pretty good at it to be

41:26 given an opportunity to do something that you like a little

41:29 bit more and then eventually something that you really love.

41:32 But my experience is that it's always been that way.

41:35 It's always been incremental.

41:36 It's always been a little bit.

41:37 And I've got as much out of it as I've been willing to give.

41:41 But there's never been a moment where someone's gone like, "Here you go,

41:45 lucky girl." You know, here's something that you didn't work for.

41:48 Um, you got to you got to put the work in.

41:50 It's just that simple.

41:52 Ambition has to find you working.

41:55 Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about timeline.

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42:23 those don't work as efficiently.

42:25 So, more of them become damaged, your energy drops, recovery slows down,

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43:22 And now back to the episode.

43:24 Is there a thought that has recurred in your own

43:29 mind of whether it said you don't deserve this?

43:34 It just right place, right time.

43:37 You didn't do this on your own.

43:40 You had all the help in the world.

43:42 like it are these I'm curious of what kind what

43:45 are the negative hardship thoughts that you or if there

43:49 any you know what are the thoughts that you have

43:51 to fight against because they're they're always they're always there.

43:56 Yeah.

43:56 You know I'm obsessed with comedy and um I've

44:00 watched like every Chris Rock special like back to front.

44:03 I could recite them for you.

44:05 But one that he always talks about is

44:07 like at some point he gets like this house,

44:09 this like beautiful dream house and he says his house is so good that he

44:13 keeps a bag packed because he can't even

44:15 imagine that like this would be his life.

44:17 Like that this is like his and he owns it.

44:20 And I kind of like feel like that so much.

44:23 I interviewed Cardi B on my podcast last week and Cardi like to me

44:28 I was like I don't know that I have much in common with Cardi B.

44:30 I was like, "Oh, that that that feeling of like never wanting

44:35 to be poor again." Like the first word she said to me,

44:38 I was like, "We are the same.

44:39 Me and Cardi B, we're the same person." Um,

44:43 but that is something that I think for so long haunted me.

44:47 This idea that what I'd worked for could be taken away

44:51 or would be taken away and I would be poor again.

44:54 and and not even like just poor,

44:57 but without the ability to make my own decisions and to decide like what I do.

45:04 And so that is something that I feel like I it's always going to be with me.

45:08 I am always keeping the proverbial bag

45:10 packed because I wake up in this beautiful

45:13 room in Bair and I'm like that can't that can't be my life.

45:17 Like it just cannot.

45:18 There's a little piece of that that I don't want to get rid of.

45:21 There's a piece of that that I am like kind of keeps me hungry.

45:25 It keeps me like thinking like what's next?

45:27 What's next?

45:28 Don't rest on your laurels.

45:29 Don't get lazy.

45:30 There's also a piece of that that goes there's thousands

45:33 of hundreds of thousands and millions of kids like me.

45:37 And so how could you be useful and actually

45:40 take what it is that you've learned and you've

45:42 done and make sure that other people that sort

45:45 of naturally have less opportunity could maybe have more

45:48 cuz I know all that I can pinpoint all

45:51 the moments of of lift that happened and it

45:54 wasn't always because I was out maneuvering everyone like

45:58 some stuff just like you know the stars aligned.

46:02 Um, but I guess that that the answer to your question is

46:04 that that is always in the back of my mind and it somewhat fuels me.

46:08 I think that I've got out of the mentality now that it can all be gone tomorrow.

46:14 But um I'd be lying if I said that that wasn't always there

46:19 like a scarcity type mindset like you you're

46:21 always you never know when it's going to stop.

46:23 So you got to keep going.

46:24 Yeah.

46:25 Yeah.

46:25 And there is a there is listen I talk about scarcity a lot in the book

46:28 because I never envisage that because I have

46:32 something more that you're going to get less, right?

46:34 And I think that is a very female thing.

46:37 Um that's not how I think at all.

46:39 I don't I don't believe in that.

46:40 But I do have that feeling for me, you know,

46:44 I when I met my husband, I said to him, I don't go back in lifestyle.

46:47 Like this is where we are now.

46:48 I'm only going one way.

46:49 It's going forward.

46:50 So you have to come with me or that this is not going to work.

46:53 Um and thankfully he was up for that challenge,

46:56 that romantic challenge that I gave him.

46:59 Um but that is that is really important to me.

47:01 Like it's like I have been very purposeful about the life that I built.

47:07 And I think it's my job to keep me moving forward to always

47:11 be in motion and to never kind of rest and imagine it's done.

47:16 I never I will never feel like that.

47:18 I know that in my own world, you know, I I we all do and I know you talk

47:23 about in your book about imposttor syndrome and that sometimes people,

47:27 especially women, can almost outtalk themselves out of an opportunity.

47:33 Do is that something that you find often?

47:37 Yeah, I mean I see it around me often.

47:39 You know, I never had and this is hard for people to understand.

47:43 I never had imposter syndrome and it was literally down to my mom.

47:47 My mom is like such a fierce lady, you know?

47:52 She is like 5 foot nothing.

47:55 She's like white and blonde and she has these like daughters that are like,

47:59 you know, black with like big curly hair.

48:02 And my mom was fierce.

48:03 She was like, "You are going to need to learn

48:05 to look after yourself and you have to know,

48:07 Emma, that you're not better than anyone else,

48:09 but nor is anyone better than you." And I swear to God,

48:13 Jefferson, I grew up my whole life thinking exactly that.

48:17 I was like, "Nobody's better than me." Like literally,

48:20 you could go to Eaton or to Harvard, but you're not better than me.

48:25 And I really imagined that.

48:26 Like I I was I took it in.

48:28 And so in my head, I thought if I work really

48:31 hard and if I throw everything that I've got at it,

48:34 I can be as successful as anybody else.

48:37 But that was my starting point.

48:38 You know, my mom gave me that.

48:40 And because I've done a lot of stuff,

48:42 because I've had a lot of businesses that worked,

48:45 but I've also had a lot of failures,

48:46 which I talk about in the book, I got more confident.

48:49 I I got the ability to lose something, to not be good at it,

48:54 to start a business, to fail,

48:56 and for that not to be like, there's something wrong with me.

48:59 I was like, that situation didn't work out.

49:02 That was the wrong set of circumstances.

49:04 I made this mistake, but I never internalized it and was like,

49:07 I'm not right for it.

49:08 So, I've always had this kind of like distance to what it is that I'm doing.

49:13 And I never thought that anything was about me.

49:16 I was just like, that was that was that, you know?

49:19 Um, and and I want to impart that on as many

49:22 women as I can because imposter syndrome is fake.

49:25 It's not real.

49:26 It's made up.

49:27 It's in your mind.

49:28 And so, you have to create the conditions and change

49:31 the way that you think about what is possible for you.

49:35 Emma, what are thoughts that you live by that other people,

49:40 even maybe listen listening or reading your book, might think are are radical?

49:45 Are there things that you live by that other people go, "Whoa,

49:48 this is something that is definitely against

49:51 the the grain uh of what we've been told." Yeah.

49:56 Oh god.

49:57 Okay, this is going to be the popular part for me in the podcast.

50:01 This is where everyone falls in love with me, Jefferson.

50:03 Okay, I've got it.

50:05 Okay.

50:05 Well, um I think that work life balance is a myth and we all know that.

50:10 I think that anyone who's been listening to me knows that.

50:12 I think it's the wrong goal, right?

50:14 Like I I have seen in my life and because I

50:18 believe that life and work and it all comes in seasons.

50:21 There is a moment to be all in, to be pedal to the metal

50:25 and to go for what it is that you want with no,

50:30 you know, no[ __] given, like no, like you're just going to go in.

50:34 And there is a time when, you know, like uh right after you have a baby,

50:39 for example, when you don't have a choice to do that.

50:41 You have to like lean out a little bit and you have to take care

50:45 of your body and take care of the baby and find a new pace for yourself.

50:49 But I think that this idea that we've created in culture

50:52 that somehow there's some mythical balance that exists and until you found it,

50:56 nothing's going to work out for you.

50:57 Like that's BS.

50:59 Like you need like to have a great career and a great business.

51:03 Like you need proximity.

51:04 You need visibility.

51:06 You can't like you don't get good over a Zoom

51:09 call like you need to be in the room.

51:11 If you're not like around me, you're not going to see how I move.

51:14 you're not going to understand like the pace of what we're trying to do,

51:17 what the like company is all about.

51:19 So I think that that is something in culture right now

51:22 that we've just got specifically for women like stop looking for balance.

51:26 Look for the things that you want and go

51:28 after that and understand like the timing of your life.

51:30 I also think the timing of your life is

51:32 a really important one and something I think about like

51:35 this idea that you know women have been told just

51:38 like wait and wait and wait to have a child.

51:40 like there is no perfect time, but there is a biological reality, right?

51:46 I'm not advocating for teen pregnancy, but I'm also saying waiting until you're

51:49 39 years old probably isn't a good idea.

51:53 So, the idea that, you know,

51:54 it's like you've got to find this like mystical partner

51:57 that arrives on a white horse and solves all your problems.

52:00 I'm like, find someone that you love and have

52:03 a baby like maybe slightly earlier than what you've been told.

52:06 It won't be the end of your life.

52:08 It's okay.

52:09 like it's just it's okay.

52:11 And I think that what happened is that like

52:13 people got so scared because modern parenting has gone bananas.

52:19 Like parenting didn't get more difficult, but the expectations got difficult.

52:23 And that's why in this book I talk so much about having a vision for yourself,

52:27 not vision boarding, not manifestation.

52:30 Like how is it that I want to live?

52:32 What is important to me?

52:33 What are my principles and the stuff that I care about?

52:36 because then you can measure yourself up against that as opposed to like some

52:40 chick that you saw on social that like cut her kids sandwiches into stars.

52:44 Like that's not important.

52:45 What's important is like what's important to you

52:47 and it's different for you than it is for me.

52:49 And so what I like to do is set my own standards.

52:53 I don't like to be impacted by all

52:55 of the noise that is like coming in and around me.

52:58 I like to say this is important to me

53:01 and these are my goals as a parent and these are

53:03 my goals as a wife and these are my goals

53:05 as a businesswoman and I'm going to go after that without apology.

53:10 Like that's what I think is important and tune

53:13 out all the noise because you know what's insane?

53:16 Like nobody's watching you.

53:18 Nobody cares about you as much as you care about you.

53:21 So you can pretty much like just do your thing

53:23 and not be worried about it because people don't have time.

53:26 They literally don't have time.

53:28 Absolutely no notes.

53:29 I can tell you I have no notes off that.

53:31 Emma, start with yourself.

53:34 A new vision for work in life.

53:36 Immigr.

53:36 This is so uh so good.

53:39 I I am honored to be able to to support it.

53:42 I want everybody to read it and uh I'll be sending make

53:44 sure that everybody in my community uh knows how important this book is.

53:48 Emma, thank you so much for your time.

53:49 Thank you.

53:50 Oh, Jefferson, thank you.

53:51 You're a diamond.

53:52 This was so lovely.

53:54 Please tell your family hi for me and uh until the next to yours from me.

53:58 Take care my love.

53:59 Take care.

54:00 Thank you.