Kara Swisher on AI & The Quest For Immortality | The Big Interview

0:00 Cara Swisser wants to live forever is

0:02 a six-part CNN original series that airs on Saturdays.

0:05 The first episode is already out on streaming

0:07 and Cara's here now to tell us more.

0:09 Welcome back, friend of Wired.

0:12 Great to see you, too.

0:13 So, I want to start at the beginning.

0:15 I just watched the first episode.

0:18 Um, and I understand that the series in many ways was

0:21 born out of one of our favorite topics here at Wired,

0:24 and that is of course Silicon Valley and the mogul who run it.

0:26 Mhm.

0:27 You've been covering those moguls for decades and you

0:29 were covering them as they became the billionaires and the

0:33 mogul before I was the before time where you have to deal with them now.

0:36 Well, I'm pretty sure you're still

0:38 I raised them badly and now you have to deal with them.

0:40 But but part of the the raising badly that you did is

0:43 that so many of these guys have now become obsessed with longevity.

0:47 they become obsessed with sort of physical optimization

0:52 or maybe however they see that I don't know

0:56 that I would consider Jeff's physique um my ideal

0:59 physique but he is clearly in some sort of

1:01 Lauren seems to like it so let's see Lauren seems

1:04 to like it just fine and good for her but

1:06 how did you watch that relationship that some

1:09 of them had to health and longevity evolve

1:11 well you know you talk about just body you

1:12 know we're not supposed to talk about people's physical looks

1:14 but wow he's different like he was a skinny

1:17 I I all I'm saying is he's not my type.

1:19 I could have thrown him across the room years

1:20 ago when I first met him and maybe I did.

1:23 Um but one of the um the thing that's

1:25 interesting to me it's not just that it's the investments.

1:28 It's the massive investments whether it's Larry

1:30 Ellison who's created an entire institute for this

1:33 or uh Musk has been involved and of course

1:35 a lot of it was also around psychedelics and ketamine.

1:38 There's you know they were the first

1:40 to sort of make significant investments in that area.

1:43 sometimes good, sometimes bad.

1:44 Like it's interesting.

1:45 Um, and I think it was born out of this idea is like we've we've

1:49 they've always been trying to hack health

1:51 in some way and never were very successful.

1:53 They're always trying to get into the health care space.

1:55 And every now and then the Google guys would say,

1:57 "We're going to make contact lenses

1:58 that will then improve your, you know, something." Yeah.

2:01 Something

2:01 and something with with health.

2:03 And so it always interested them.

2:05 And now that they have time and money,

2:08 they're older and they suddenly realize their little meat

2:11 sacks are going to not last for that long.

2:13 And so how do we how do we get to that spot of, you know,

2:17 the singularity which was, you know, Ray Kurtzwhile,

2:20 that idea that we're going to merge with the machine.

2:22 And and then there's a dollop of science fiction that they all grew up on.

2:25 A lot of them do.

2:26 I know Musk certainly was enamored

2:28 with certain science fiction around that idea.

2:31 Space travel, not just space travel, but space shuttle longevity.

2:34 um etc.

2:36 Uh and so that's sort of what it's part of.

2:38 And then there's a whole aspect of it of what happens to your brain.

2:42 Can you preserve your brain?

2:43 And not cryogenics because I didn't do any

2:45 of that because I think that's such nonsense.

2:46 Why waste my time?

2:49 Yeah.

2:48 Um but one of the things was what happens

2:51 now that they have AI that can become you.

2:55 Could you preserve yourself in some other

2:57 way and put yourself into another being?

3:00 And I want to ask you about your experience with that.

3:02 But but for for these guys, I mean,

3:05 there's the the ego and the power of it, too, right?

3:08 I mean, this sort of like the ultimate

3:11 conquest, the ultimate exercising of power would be able

3:14 to would mean being able to defeat death, right?

3:17 Right.

3:17 Defeat death or at least extend it to the point, you know,

3:20 Musk talks about it like it's just a programming problem,

3:23 but it's not just a brain.

3:25 Of course, it's not.

3:26 They like to reduce the brain to a computer.

3:28 of the brain is would wishes it would like

3:30 the the computer wishes it were like a brain brain is amazing

3:34 um but I think it's the idea that if

3:35 if everything else can be hacked why can't this right

3:38 and to a certain extent there are things you can

3:41 do and like robotics and exoskeletons and AI for cancer

3:45 which I also looked into this was I wanted

3:47 to look at the real stuff GLP1s um mRNA technology

3:53 the uses of AI and drug discovery all manner

3:56 of things can extend life and rid ourselves of certain diseases.

4:00 That's an allottable goal.

4:02 But instead of just saying, "Okay,

4:03 we're going to try to figure out a way to, you know,

4:06 talk about this single cancer." Instead, because they're doing PR for themselves

4:10 while they're stealing all our information, we're going to cure all diseases,

4:14 right?

4:14 All of them.

4:15 All of them.

4:15 I was like, "All like, I'm not so sure that's possible." But I get a goal.

4:20 I get a goal.

4:21 Like, that's a nice goal.

4:22 Yeah.

4:22 But

4:24 what they're really doing is other things, right?

4:26 they're really doing is creating all manner of danger.

4:29 And that's not their main goal is to help humanity.

4:32 They're there to help themselves.

4:33 They're there to get richer and they're there to extend

4:36 their power across the rest of us without any accountability,

4:39 which you and I have talked about a lot.

4:41 We're we're good at talking about that.

4:43 That actually brings me to They are That brings me

4:46 to actually Brian Johnson who is featured in the first episode

4:49 of the series who I also interviewed and and we talked

4:52 very briefly before you went and interviewed him many months back.

4:56 You know, he's he's one of the internet's favorite longevity influencers,

4:59 if not the internet's favorite.

5:00 He's he's very he doesn't like calling himself an influencer, by the way.

5:04 He got very offended by Well, I mean, he he is a YouTuber.

5:07 I mean, he is prolific on he's an influencer.

5:10 He's he's across all these platforms.

5:11 He has millions of followers.

5:13 Um, and he is very very wealthy by way of of tech money.

5:17 And he has devoted himself essentially

5:19 to becoming a one-man longevity optimization experiment, right?

5:24 Which which helps none of us.

5:26 Which helps none of us.

5:26 And I wanted to ask, you know, I interviewed him.

5:29 I have my impressions.

5:31 Tell me about yours.

5:32 Well, it's interesting because he I had forgotten but I

5:35 as I went back he came to code in 2017 my conference

5:39 and the clips from that are I must say are wonderful but he

5:43 looks again sorry to keep commenting

5:45 on people's experience on people's appearances

5:48 vastly different than he does

5:49 he looks normal is what he does normal um he was coming because he

5:53 was talking about and I thought it was really interesting and the reason I

5:55 had him was because he was talking about brain science and what we can

5:59 do around depression because he himself suffered it and some of the uses of AI.

6:03 He was one of the first people to talk about what

6:05 where are we going to go with this and very thoughtful

6:08 and you know he had sold his company for $800 million I can't remember

6:12 and obviously he had also personal issues around

6:14 Mormonism and everything else and so he was

6:16 a really interesting character to me and then it morphed into then this and then

6:21 he's doing all this like like chest th showing off nudity like look at me

6:27 plasma transfers son or father anything and everything and he

6:31 became a circus act and I was like wow

6:33 that was what happened like kind of stuff and so

6:36 I I had somewhat I wouldn't say affection but I

6:39 had empathy for what he was talking about during

6:41 that talk which is why I had him and it

6:44 was also of interest because it really was god

6:46 what can we do with AI and brains and etc

6:50 and and it's an interesting area of of things to discuss and entertain

6:55 and then it was about a narcissistic pursuit of I don't even know

6:59 what because it's not like and I I did put it to him

7:02 in this interview it's Your experiences

7:04 are only the experiences of Brian Johnson.

7:06 If you have all this money, all of you,

7:08 why don't you pay for gold standard testing?

7:11 Well, how many can I pay for?

7:12 I'm like, a[ __] buttload, my friend, right?

7:15 Why don't you help more people than less?

7:18 And that's it's just him.

7:20 It's just him.

7:20 And what is going to become of this information?

7:23 Almost nothing.

7:24 Like maybe one or two small insights that people might maybe take.

7:28 Maybe getting enough sleep is good.

7:31 We know this.

7:32 has helped us establish this.

7:33 Yes, but he has not.

7:34 No, no, I know I'm being sarcastic.

7:35 He has not at all.

7:36 My grandma knew that.

7:37 Yeah, there's a great clip um I think I saw it

7:40 on on CNN's social accounts of of this interview where he says something like,

7:44 you know, getting enough sleep.

7:46 Anyone can get enough sleep.

7:47 And immediately in my head and then you said, "No, they can't.

7:51 There are so many people." If you're poor, you know,

7:54 if you do food and you get enough sleep and maybe if they get enough sleep,

7:56 I go, "Maybe they can't." He didn't even

7:58 occur to him that they might have two jobs.

8:00 They have homeless issues.

8:02 They have, you know, financial issues.

8:04 They've got health issues that they can't pay for.

8:06 It doesn't even occur to these people that if

8:09 you spend $2 million on your health, you'll be good.

8:12 You're good, sir.

8:13 And so that so what is the point of that money

8:16 when he could be doing like and just interestingly,

8:18 ironically, this week um uh McKenzie Scott gave $70 million to Meals on Wheels.

8:24 Guess who's going to help the outcomes of longevity more?

8:28 Her or him?

8:30 her.

8:30 So why do you think he's doing it?

8:31 Because this is in this case.

8:33 This is the question.

8:34 An empty hole.

8:35 You know, I don't know.

8:36 I think there is scientific interest like there,

8:39 you know, look Frankenstein, Dr.

8:40 Frankenstein, you know, everyone who does experiments,

8:43 lots of both nefarious like Hitler and Dr.

8:48 Mangala, they did those experiments.

8:49 And there's all kinds of people.

8:50 The guy who, you know, was trying when they were doing crisper tried to use

8:55 it for or cloning when they decided to go into cloning.

8:58 They he did it.

8:59 you shouldn't have.

8:59 This is something that's always happened.

9:01 I if you're not doing it for the benefit of lots and lots of people,

9:06 what are you doing it for?

9:07 And then I then I said, and he's sort of aware of it.

9:10 He goes, I know people think I'm this like

9:13 narcissistic Patrick Baitman adjacent[ __] And I was like, "Yes, they do."

9:20 And then he's like, "And you're playing no." But I was like,

9:23 "Exactly." And I said, and he's like, "Well,

9:25 you know, I it's easy to mock me." I go, "No,

9:28 no, you put yourself you make you know what you're doing.

9:31 You're you're very aware of, you know,

9:33 when you have a picture of you with a little blood

9:35 thing and you do with your son that everyone's going to look.

9:38 You you have to be a don't don't play innocent with me." At the same time,

9:42 I find to be a rather poignant figure

9:44 like what are you what are you looking for?

9:46 Is this the way you want to spend your life?

9:48 measuring your erections and you know analyzing your poop

9:51 and constantly being why why there was something I found him

9:58 to be I mean all the things that you just said

10:00 I on a surface level as a human a lovely person

10:04 generous with his time kind thoughtful considerate yes very much so

10:08 something sad something sad sad it's narcissism is what

10:11 it is right and and that's what you have

10:13 to look at and one of the things that I think is a real disease of these people

10:16 right now is they can't stop talking like

10:18 we can't stop talking but that's our job right

10:21 but they really have to weigh in on all

10:23 manner of whether it's Mark Andre talking about introspection

10:26 which is abs to me I was like oh

10:28 I see then you're deeply troubled like it's like

10:31 everything they try to say like I don't care

10:33 about anything I'm like oh you care about so much

10:36 so much and so uh so it's really interesting

10:40 like why are we talking to Mark Anderson about

10:42 philosophy precisely like I don't know I I'm happy

10:45 to talk to him about browsers or whatever Um,

10:48 and so that's that's the kind of stuff.

10:50 And so what to me it's out of boredom, out of I can talk about anything.

10:53 I'm an expert in anything.

10:54 And when you come to healthare,

10:57 who are we helping?

10:57 And and and what really kills me is, well,

11:00 obviously there's the misinformation and the grifterness

11:02 around so much of this stuff.

11:04 And that's, you know, it it's the same thing part

11:06 and parcel with the political misinformation that happens.

11:08 It's it's in this down the same alley.

11:11 But one of the things that sort of kills

11:13 me is that there's so much amazing innovation happening.

11:16 Yeah.

11:17 Well, real innovation.

11:18 And that was a question I had for you, which is sort of how much do you think

11:22 all of this noise of the the Silicon Valleys,

11:24 the curing all diseases, the Brian Johnson's,

11:27 the misinformation, like all of this noise.

11:30 You have that over here.

11:32 Over here, you have a very broken American healthare system.

11:35 Very much

11:36 massive inequity in access to cost,

11:39 double the cost of other peer nations.

11:42 And you have you have real science happening.

11:44 So, how much do you think we're all getting distracted

11:47 looking over here and not sort of addressing what's going on?

11:52 There isn't a business in it.

11:53 There isn't a business in doing preventative healthcare.

11:56 There's a little bit of it, but the costs, the cost savings are enormous.

11:59 And what we do is we backload everything.

12:02 The money is spent when you're sick.

12:03 And we're good at sick.

12:05 We're not good at health.

12:06 And so, I went to Korea, which is better at health than they are at sick, right?

12:10 Yeah.

12:10 Tell me tell me about that.

12:11 I've never been.

12:12 You know, it's not a perfect nation.

12:13 Let's be clear.

12:14 I wasn't trying to say they're the best,

12:15 but they do have the longest longevity right now.

12:18 And there's a lot of reasons.

12:19 One is diet.

12:19 I went to a school.

12:20 If you saw what those kids ate, it's really astonishing.

12:23 Very healthy foods, you know,

12:24 fermented foods, vegetables, whole fruits, everything else.

12:28 And they have a nutritionist in every school.

12:30 Why don't we have a nutritionist in every school?

12:33 And then it teach.

12:34 It's not like they don't eat snacks.

12:35 Everyone's seen K-pop demon hunters.

12:36 They love a snack, right?

12:38 But what they what what happens is these kids get

12:41 a base of food knowledge that they get used to and start

12:46 eating and that's really important and it's it and it you

12:50 don't see it today but later in your life it matters.

12:53 Same thing with doing strength training when you're younger.

12:56 It it it's like putting money in the bank.

12:59 All of a sudden you have a million dollars later so you don't fall over

13:02 and or you do interval training to get

13:04 your heart more efficient and your muscles.

13:06 Like that's something that pays off much later and is

13:09 not so flashy like put on a red light.

13:11 That's the thing.

13:12 It all it all just sounds very boring.

13:14 It does.

13:14 And it is boring.

13:16 Brian Johnson having good sex.

13:17 Right.

13:17 Exactly.

13:18 And so although sex is probably good for your health.

13:20 Um but one of the things that's important to keep in mind is what can we do

13:24 as a nation to try to make ourselves healthier rather

13:28 than you know I'll tell you one thing in Korea.

13:30 Universal healthcare.

13:33 Oh universal healthcare is the way you have a healthier society.

13:36 End of story.

13:37 Period.

13:37 End of story.

13:37 Having grown up in Canada.

13:38 Agree.

13:39 And And you know, when the rich were, oh, they don't have as good a system.

13:41 I'm like, you know what?

13:42 Buy more.

13:43 You're rich.

13:44 Buy more.

13:44 Yeah.

13:44 Buy more.

13:45 Buy more.

13:45 Which they do.

13:46 And by the way, the rich have a different medical system than everybody else.

13:50 They have these.

13:50 And I went to a concert

13:52 and it and and you know, some of it is silly like the red light mat.

13:57 Whatever if you want.

13:57 They don't really the science is pretty weak around those things or hyperaric.

14:01 They have something new and flashy.

14:03 every hyper Brian has his own hyperbaric chamber but you

14:06 know it's sort of the idea is if a little

14:08 oxygen is good three times is better which is

14:10 not true um you know and these promises of instant

14:15 and again this isn't new in our history or or the world's

14:18 history that you take a pill and then you're suddenly

14:21 young again I mean even Greek

14:23 mythology is like that vampire stories Frankenstein

14:27 we this is something we we we wish for but honestly it's really

14:31 boring to do the block can tackle stuff that we need to do

14:34 to stay healthy and at the same time to back things like mRNA technology.

14:39 I went and visited the Nobel Prize winner in this in Philadelphia

14:42 at the University of Pennsylvania and these people are fleeing this country.

14:45 We were ahead in all these things because of the Trump administration's

14:49 cuts and the the the terror they're they're terrorists to our scientists.

14:53 Yeah.

14:54 And if they get funding,

14:56 we will be ahead and we'll have these we'll have vaccines for cancer.

14:59 Yeah.

14:59 No, I mean, it's the what is happening to the US

15:02 healthcare system and scientific research under the Trump administration is

15:07 criminal.

15:07 Criminal and a one of many reasons I would

15:09 love for my 8-year-old to be an adult somewhere else.

15:12 That's right.

15:12 And this is a doctor says this.

15:14 This guy won the prize.

15:15 He goes, "This we are setting back our research for generation a generation.

15:21 And the next pandemic will be begging the Chinese for a vaccine,

15:26 which you do not want to be doing.

15:28 begging the Chinese for it.

15:29 And the the thing is we are been so far ahead on this stuff really far ahead

15:34 and it should also be working with allies like

15:36 in Germany that's where some of this technology came from

15:40 to do things GLP1 is a very good thing so much promise here.

15:43 So how do we roll this out among the general population in a safe way?

15:47 How do we do, you know, gold standard testing, figure out what it really works,

15:51 and then start to really understand obesity and what we can do about it,

15:55 both from a medical point of view and from a learn about nutrition,

15:58 learn about sleep, learn about exercise,

16:01 give give the population more knowledge.

16:03 And that's not what they're interested in.

16:05 They're not right.

16:07 They're not.

16:08 And and and you wish they were.

16:09 And the one person who actually is making

16:11 a difference would be Mackenzie Scott among these people

16:13 and doing so very quietly.

16:15 Never heard.

16:15 You never hear from her.

16:16 We don't I don't know what her pecs look like.

16:18 I don't know.

16:19 I don't either.

16:20 I don't know if she has pecs.

16:21 I don't care.

16:22 Neither does she.

16:23 Like she's doing things.

16:24 Or someone like Melinda Gates and actually

16:26 honestly Bill Gates too because they were just

16:29 giving money to do things that would

16:30 cause solve malaria very things that kills people.

16:34 And then in this country now measel seems to be back and that's so offensive.

16:39 What's next?

16:39 Polio?

16:40 Are we going to do chalera next?

16:41 It's possible.

16:41 Yeah.

16:42 And this has been solved.

16:43 This was solved things.

16:45 We should be focused on things we haven't solved.

16:47 And now we're now contending because of misinformation,

16:50 health misinformation with diseases that like honestly I'm like

16:54 waiting for the gout to make a like a return.

16:57 Yeah.

16:57 And and there is sort of a jarring juxtaposition between everything you just

17:01 described and then for the last time bringing it back to Brian Johnson,

17:05 but sort of all of these guys over here

17:08 just Yeah.

17:08 like measuring their[ __] and their erections and and drinking smoothies

17:12 and eating broccoli in their you know concrete mansions and you're huh like

17:18 yeah he doesn't like the sun I guess

17:19 feels more urgent sort of it's also the idea of what's the priority

17:24 here is it for the most people no it's not it really isn't

17:27 and so if it's not what are you doing with this enormous wealth

17:30 and the only thing I can say sometimes when I see some of them is

17:33 you're still going to die

17:35 you do know that and you're not and one thing I did do is I created Keratar,

17:39 which was a 3D thing of an AI version of me.

17:42 I'm curious about this.

17:43 Yeah.

17:43 What was your tell us about it and and what did you walk away

17:48 thinking and feeling about the idea of sort of living on

17:51 it?

17:52 Was complicated.

17:52 I would say that.

17:53 So it was it was from a firm that if

17:55 you remember is is preserving the memories of Holocaust uh survivors.

17:59 And a lot of it used to be they

18:00 taped them and they would have road answers, right?

18:03 Like what was it like in the camp?

18:05 And then they they would tape them and then it would be played back at you.

18:08 Essentially a tape recorder and but physic they would take beautiful

18:11 3D imagery of them and then that was kind of great.

18:14 That's great in of itself.

18:16 It's it's talking history.

18:18 Now they can have you can have

18:20 real conversations with them that you didn't tape.

18:22 So I taped a bunch of stuff like my name is Cara Swisser.

18:24 I was born in Philadelphia.

18:26 My father died when I was five.

18:28 And and then they can glean stuff also from the internet which is incredible.

18:32 And then because of AI now these things can start to have real I would say

18:36 I would call them real conversations except it's

18:39 based on the algorithm and it knew it.

18:41 It said they I said well you know you don't have empathy or to soul

18:46 and and the the being that was me the keratar said well algorithm is my soul.

18:52 Wow.

18:52 And that's and I was like that's a really interesting kind

18:55 you know it's really jarring when they have a good insight.

18:57 And at one point I said well do you think I'm like you?

19:01 And I said, "Well, you're not really good

19:02 at jokes and you don't smile much." So, and and they were like, "I'll take that.

19:06 I'll take that note." And at one point,

19:09 they go, "I'm smiling, just not with my teeth.

19:13 You can't see it." And I was like, "Okay, that was a good joke." Yeah.

19:16 Like, it suddenly it knew I wanted a joke.

19:18 And it it did one that was okay.

19:20 It was on the way for sure.

19:22 Would you want that for your family?

19:24 No, I didn't.

19:25 I thought I'm going to kill you at some point.

19:26 And then I didn't want to say it too loudly cuz

19:28 who knows what would come after me like 2001 of Space Odyssey.

19:31 I'm sorry.

19:32 I'm sorry.

19:32 I won't be able to do that.

19:34 Um, and you know, I'll tell you the the weirdest

19:37 part and I've said this several times was

19:40 I there's a lot of Cara Swisser out there.

19:42 There's probably a lot of there's more and more Katie Drummond out there.

19:44 And so you could pull from 20 years of interviews, articles I've written,

19:49 if you put my I didn't put my emails in there,

19:51 but you could you could get a pretty

19:53 good a relatively good faximile of Cara Swisser.

19:56 And of course, they took a picture of me.

19:58 I look a little shiny and weird, but that's okay.

20:00 It was it was enough.

20:01 It was close enough.

20:03 And um I was leaving and we had this very interesting talk about

20:08 um how do you balance uh innovation with the need to protect humanity?

20:13 And I said, "We don't." And the avatar said,

20:18 "That's really something to think about

20:19 because that's probably you're probably right." Like,

20:21 and you know, it was being solicited,

20:23 but it was it was a real I would say it was a good conversation.

20:26 It got better and better by the minute.

20:28 That was what was really interesting.

20:30 And and it it not in a not in a text setting, it's even more jarring.

20:34 You know, a really pretty good conversation with a computer.

20:38 And um and as I was leaving, there's something I say to my kids.

20:42 I have four kids, which I always say, which is stupid and and cringey,

20:46 where I go, "See you, wouldn't want to be you." I have not said that in public.

20:50 Now I have during these interviews.

20:53 I have not said that in public.

20:56 I as I walked away, it said, "See you.

20:58 Wouldn't want to be you."

21:01 No.

21:00 And I thought, "Where the[ __] did they get that from?

21:03 Where?

21:04 Where?" And I I'm like, "Maybe I said it somewhere, but how did it pull it?

21:09 And how did it know that's what I would say?

21:11 I uh

21:12 but how I was like

21:14 I don't know.

21:14 I don't know.

21:15 I just I sat there and I was like I don't think I've said that in public.

21:20 I I don't recall.

21:23 Spooky.

21:22 I a lot of stuff they said I knew where they got

21:24 I had a sense of where it came from, but it was um

21:28 Did you ask your kids if that's something they would want?

21:30 Like would they want to be able to talk to you in that way after you died?

21:34 It's not really about my kids because they do know me, right?

21:36 Um

21:37 but like would they want to spend time with an with an AI avatar version of you?

21:40 I don't know.

21:41 One of the things was, do I want my great-grandchildren to see it?

21:45 Yeah.

21:44 Would I have liked to have talked to my dad even in Avatar?

21:47 Yes.

21:49 Mhm.

21:48 Yes, I would.

21:49 Yeah.

21:49 If there was if there was little bits of him because memory is so bad.

21:53 At the same time, maybe memor is better.

21:56 Maybe flawed memory is better than the real thing.

21:59 Yeah.

21:59 And sort of this very natural erosion of that memory is Exactly.

22:03 And maybe that's the way it should be.

22:04 And so, look, I think someday we will be able to like you'll be in a cemetery.

22:09 I was thinking of this.

22:10 I always think about like what's the next thing you'll be in a cemetery

22:13 and instead of gravestones there'll be holograms

22:15 of people and you'll talk to them.

22:18 I no question I can picture it.

22:20 Yeah, right.

22:21 No, it's not black mirror.

22:22 It makes sense.

22:23 Why not do that?

22:24 And then you could say I'm visiting mom today and hi honey.

22:27 How you doing?

22:29 But it might be comforting to some people, right?

22:32 And so I'm not one to tell you what not to do.

22:35 No.

22:35 No.

22:35 There's just a lot there.

22:36 There's a lot that comes with that.

22:38 Right.

22:38 And so you start to think about it.

22:39 And so the issue of longevity is, you know,

22:42 I started with the myth myth of Tthonus.

22:44 I think that's the right to pronounce it.

22:45 Do you know that myth?

22:46 The Greek mythology.

22:47 I'm a big mythology person.

22:49 It's a goddess falls in love with this guy Tthonus.

22:52 Um, and she she gets Zeus to make him live forever,

22:56 but she forgets to not let him age to to stop the aging process.

23:00 And so he's in agony because he gets older

23:03 and older and more decrepit, but he never dies.

23:07 And it's it's it's hell.

23:09 It's hell.

23:09 And so what is our purpose of living longer?

23:12 And isn't it better to clear out for the next generation?

23:16 What happens to jobs if people like I interviewed

23:19 one guy and he was a science fiction writer.

23:20 And what if you could take a pill that every

23:25 five years you lived you only aged one year?

23:27 That means you could live a couple hundred years, right?

23:30 You're 40 and you're really whatever 200.

23:32 Um would you take that pill?

23:36 You would only age a year every five years

23:39 and it costs a million dollars each so only some people could take it.

23:43 And what if your kids didn't take it?

23:46 Think about it's like so mind[ __] It's all of

23:49 I think I would rather not have the choice.

23:51 I don't want to have to make that choice.

23:52 Someday you might.

23:53 And that's really interesting.

23:54 And so what if you could replace all your organs?

23:59 You know what about that?

24:01 And so we will be facing those issues.

24:03 But then you never get out of the way.

24:05 What happens to people's jobs?

24:06 What happens to young people if you're not leaving?

24:08 If we could have Chuck, young Chuck Schumer all the time.

24:11 Dare to dream.

24:12 We don't like old Chuck Schumer, right?

24:13 Like, but clearing out is part of life, right?

24:18 Well, how old do you hope you are when you die?

24:21 Would you take that builder?

24:23 No.

24:23 No.

24:23 Okay.

24:24 No.

24:24 Um, again, the lifespan health span thing,

24:28 which I think is one of the good things that's come out of this, is

24:30 the idea that your lifespan and health span

24:32 meet up because right now it's a 15-year delta.

24:35 People start to get really sick at in their 60s.

24:37 They live into their 80s and the last part is not good,

24:41 90s even, and anyone who is an elderly parent knows this.

24:44 It's really painful to watch.

24:46 Um, but I I imagine I want to be relatively healthy till the end.

24:51 That would be the best thing.

24:52 I think most people think that mobile and some of these like

24:55 I was in Korea the the exoskeleton stuff is really cool with AI.

24:59 That's cool.

25:00 If you could walk and get around okay and you're

25:02 not in a wheelchair and you're not sharp and

25:05 sharp and the cognitive stuff that would be great.

25:07 Um I don't know long enough.

25:10 I would like to see I had kids.

25:12 I have older kids and younger kids.

25:14 I'd like to meet I'd like to see at least some married maybe a nice like 95 96.

25:20 Yeah.

25:20 and and pretty, you know, pretty pretty old enough.

25:23 Old enough, but not really debilitated.

25:25 Although, if you have a a a life of the mind, that's okay.

25:30 People that don't have a life of the mind are the ones that suffer.

25:32 If I could sit and read, that would be nice.

25:35 I never slow down.

25:36 It does, right?

25:37 What um what did you walk away from from making this series?

25:44 When you walked away from it, what gives you hope?

25:47 What should people listening to this feel optimistic to know?

25:50 We've tal we talked about a lot of dysfunction, a lot of erections.

25:54 The number one longevity hack is not to be poor.

25:59 Yeah.

25:58 Or be rich, but that's the number one.

26:01 But the one that I really came away

26:03 with, and I think it's absolutely true for cognitive health,

26:06 for physical health, and the cascading effects of things is friends and family.

26:10 the scientific links are so clear in terms of having

26:14 links and not just with people you know it's having challenges

26:18 having that that humanity just really beats all this stuff

26:22 no matter how you slice it creativity beats all this stuff

26:25 and when you have a challenged brain and aside from accidents

26:29 and things that just happen just because life is like

26:32 that um friends and family and a wider range of connect

26:38 social connections are critically important and well over AI bot.

26:44 We could get into that.

26:45 AI bots and synthetic relationships and everything else.

26:49 The number one thing you can do for yourself is

26:51 have and and I talked to the Harvard happiness study people,

26:54 all manner of doctors,

26:56 social connections, real social connections, not social media connections.

27:01 There's nothing social about social media.

27:03 No.

27:03 Um it's angry.

27:05 It's it's become angry and we can't seem to fix it.

27:07 Um social connection.

27:08 I think young people do get that.

27:10 My son, my both my sons took social media off

27:12 their thing and I my older son and I said,

27:14 "Why did you do that?" And he said, "It makes me feel bad." Yeah.

27:18 You don't need a computer to tell you that, right?

27:20 And so that was something really interesting.

27:22 And so I've spent a lot more time with social connections.

27:24 And I really think we lost that during co in a lot of ways.

27:28 And we have to regain that.

27:29 And it's the single best thing we can

27:31 do for health is rebuild all kinds of communities,

27:34 not just church communities or sports communities,

27:36 but really start to have much.

27:38 And I think honestly that's where we're headed right now.

27:40 You can see I do too.

27:41 I think you can People want to be around other people.

27:43 They do.

27:44 It's changing and people are sick of the dunking online.

27:47 They're sick of the angry billionaires

27:49 and and they're sick of the the partisanship.

27:53 And accepting death is part of that.

27:55 And there was a great interview at the very end.

27:57 I talked to a pastor.

27:58 I talked to a range of people.

28:00 And uh this professor at Skidmore is doing a study of death

28:03 acceptance during death versus death fear and the physical manifestations of it.

28:08 And people who fear death are sicker, angrier,

28:12 more partisan, more polarized, more them, you know, they

28:18 the other people who accept death are happier, healthier,

28:24 uh they live longer, they are happier in their life.

28:27 And and that's where I originally took

28:29 my inspiration from Steve Jobs who talked about this.

28:31 Death is the single greatest motivator and invention of life and he's 100,

28:36 you know, he died, but he's 100% right.

28:39 And you learned that very early.

28:41 I did with my dad dying.

28:42 When you think about death, how do you try to think about it?

28:45 A lot.

28:46 I think about it a lot.

28:47 It informs everything.

28:48 And you know, you know, I change a lot.

28:50 Yeah.

28:50 I often say to myself when I'm somewhere, and Steve Jobs said this, he goes,

28:54 "When I'm unhappy four or five days in a row, I say no and look in the mirror.

28:57 I leave.

28:58 I get up and leave.

28:59 I change." And sometimes I I do that.

29:04 I do that a lot.

29:04 And I know that I have limited time on the planet.

29:06 And it's it's actually how I make decisions.

29:09 And I remember leaving one job and they were like,

29:13 it was a it was a pretty wellestablished place.

29:16 And they're like, "Oh, why are you leaving?" And I said,

29:18 "I don't want to talk to you anymore.

29:20 I don't have enough time." And they're like, "What?" And I go,

29:23 "I'm wasting my time talking to you." And oh, I just wasted another minute.

29:29 And that's a very that comment was very existential.

29:31 Like literally,

29:32 I knew how many minutes my dad finished his he he went in the military

29:37 because it paid he wasn't didn't have enough

29:38 money to pay for medical school or college.

29:41 Paid for that.

29:42 He got get has three kids, 34 years old,

29:45 buys his first house, gets his first big job.

29:48 He doesn't move into that house.

29:49 He doesn't do that job.

29:50 He dies.

29:52 What if you knew that?

29:54 I know that, right?

29:56 All of us know that.

29:58 Yeah.

29:57 In in the back of our heads.

29:58 And if if if we have the awareness of that right now, we may go on digitally.

30:03 Maybe it never gets erased, but if you have that, you can it motivates you

30:07 to do great things and to think about other people more.

30:09 I think it does.

30:10 It absolutely does.

30:11 Yeah.

30:12 Or you can be graspy and hold desperately on to your meat sack, Brian.

30:17 And it's a good-look meat sack according to you.

30:20 According to some, right?

30:21 So, that's a way to go, but I think it's a waste of time.

30:26 I love that.

30:28 Yeah.

30:27 Thank you so much for being and keep going, Katie.

30:30 I'm going to keep going.

30:31 I love it.

30:32 They're still mad out there.

30:33 Good.

30:33 You know what?

30:34 Keep them mangry.

30:36 I will.

30:36 Thank you so much again.

30:37 Thank you.