The state of culture, advertising and brand in 2026 (Live)

0:02 I'm excited for it.

0:03 As first is I feel like you're equally online.

0:06 We're both extremely online.

0:07 Thus the the promo title.

0:09 Whereas I don't think I think there's a lot

0:11 of people who like know some stuff happening,

0:12 but I feel like there's a elite group that have like a grasp

0:15 of the situation perhaps too much of a grasp

0:18 of the situation of which you're one.

0:20 And so I think it'd be interesting

0:21 to hear people like what we're monitoring and why.

0:24 And then second when I want X or Instagram I feel like it's

0:27 like the trenches of like D2C like small brand like building new software.

0:33 Yeah.

0:33 But you have like big agency big

0:34 enterprise big cooperation marketing thought and background.

0:39 I think that's really just I guess important to have that perspective.

0:42 So yeah, let's just get a little background from from you

0:44 for people who haven't listened before and then we'll dive into some topics.

0:47 Yeah, yeah.

0:48 So I am extremely online.

0:50 I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad

0:51 thing especially you know It's a great thing in this crowd.

0:54 But but yeah, I think a unique thing about

0:57 my background is that I've been fortunate enough to you know

1:01 jump into and out of kind of every level

1:03 of marketing or quadrant or like experience as you put it.

1:07 So I have worked on the venture side

1:09 and dealt with a lot of D2C and growth stuff,

1:11 but the majority of my career has been big brands at big

1:15 agencies navigating politics and you know

1:17 budgets and seasonality and stuff like that.

1:20 So I I guess I have a unique perspective and and no

1:24 one's ever accused me of not having an opinion about nearly everything.

1:29 So Yeah.

1:30 That's fair.

1:31 Yeah.

1:31 And which our our friend Orchid just logged on on the YouTube.

1:35 Oh no.

1:36 All right.

1:37 Now now I'm nervous.

1:38 My heart rate just went up.

1:40 My my Whoop band just started vibrating right now cuz cuz cuz Orchid hopped on.

1:43 Cuz cuz cuz she has that effect.

1:45 Yeah.

1:46 Yeah, I know.

1:46 She's she's going to she keeps me humble.

1:48 Let's just say that.

1:50 I mean so yeah, so those are

1:51 the Orchid and I work together uh pretty extensively.

1:53 So I'm I'm well familiar.

1:54 Um Yeah, are you are you following her horse girl arc?

1:58 Yeah, yeah.

1:58 I'm excited for it.

1:59 I mean it's I I'm I'm seeing the audience like grow over time.

2:03 It's great.

2:04 So this is this Or this is what you get for for joining,

2:06 but I'm going to I'm probably Wait, why don't why don't I see the chat?

2:09 Where where's I I don't see it.

2:11 Oh here.

2:11 on the right there's a little underneath people says chat.

2:16 Own it.

2:16 You have lots of opinions.

2:18 Keep you on your toes.

2:19 Thanks Orchid.

2:21 What we're going to bring out we're going to do unsolicited um

2:24 since there is no concrete plan we're going to do unsolicited Instagram [snorts]

2:29 Instagram review.

2:30 So just a quick breakdown.

2:32 So yeah, we Orchid has begun making content about her passion.

2:36 And which in which is is horse and equestrian related and has been doing

2:41 Yeah.

2:41 basically breakdowns of business like okay, private equity Yeah.

2:45 and its impact on Dover Saddlery.

2:47 Mhm.

2:47 The rise and fall of State Tack.

2:49 I'm fascinated by this.

2:50 I knew nothing about the equestrian industry prior.

2:53 Mhm.

2:54 And find it find it really interesting.

2:55 Do you know are you participating in like equestrian luxury?

2:58 Do you know anything about this space?

3:00 I don't know anything about the space and the extent

3:02 of my knowledge is basically what Orchid is teaching me through her account.

3:06 Here's what I love though the story arc is not just

3:08 a recent one like she was I don't even know what

3:11 you call an equestrian writer a writer like early on in her life

3:16 and then she came back to it many years later.

3:17 In the meantime she accumulated all this business knowledge.

3:20 So now like that experience and her business

3:25 experience are colliding and it's it's

3:27 just really educational and like obviously like

3:30 I don't know is this horse girl summer?

3:31 Is this like it's on the comeback, right?

3:34 And it's a it's a it's a niche that is attracting a lot of consumer

3:38 dollars and it's like it's that you know upper leg of of the K-shaped economy

3:43 that's actually still spending money and spending

3:45 more money than ever on things that you

3:47 know a normie might think are kind of exuberant or like a little bit extra,

3:51 but heck hey, you know what I mean?

3:52 Like everyone can benefit from knowing about categories that interest them.

3:56 So Well, I do think to the point of what

3:59 is luxury mean in a world where all these brands

4:02 kind of produce the same things they're ultra expensive

4:04 it's the time you get to spend with your horse.

4:07 This is like a real [laughter] it's a real thing and I don't know

4:11 how much this Dover Saddlery Rambo cover costs,

4:15 but I can imagine it's as much as a Louis Vuitton bag.

4:19 Or more.

4:20 I mean Is that a real photo?

4:23 I have I mean this is this is kind of crazy.

4:25 Yeah, I think this is all right.

4:26 I do not think AI has made it to the equestrian industry yet.

4:30 Um Yeah, there there there's parts of luxury that AI hasn't even tapped.

4:33 And the the models are training themselves on on on Orchid's account.

4:36 You know what I mean?

4:37 It's like oh like we found it.

4:38 We found her.

4:40 Oh yeah, okay.

4:41 So just it's a Ireland Amigo Bug Buster with no fly zone.

4:47 Aren't they ironically cheap?

4:49 Yeah.

4:50 I mean you can have you can have a few colorways in rotation.

4:53 You know what I mean?

4:54 One for every day of the week, you know?

4:56 But I think it's a business business opportunity.

4:58 We went to So Orchid and I were in Manhattan.

5:02 Yeah.

5:02 took me to Manhattan Saddlery which is the only tack shop in Manhattan.

5:08 Which I thought was a fascinating microcosm.

5:10 You had like buzz to enter, but then they had the full selection.

5:13 That is so interesting.

5:15 Where where in Manhattan is this?

5:16 It's like downtown uptown?

5:18 I would imagine Yeah, it was Chelsea.

5:20 Okay.

5:20 Okay.

5:21 Midtown.

5:22 You know in in a year where REI is shutting down and people are

5:28 calling that like a a a niche

5:29 retail establishment given the context of Manhattan.

5:33 I mean you still have things like that shop existing

5:36 and I would assume doing well to pay Chelsea retail rent.

5:39 So There's a market for it.

5:41 And a private space you can't walk in off the street.

5:44 Yeah.

5:45 Yeah.

5:45 Um kind of tangentially related to this I went to my first rodeo.

5:49 Which is like a funny thing to say aloud.

5:51 In uh in Austin when I was there for South by Southwest we took like

5:55 uh a day trip out to the Austin rodeo which was happening at the same time.

5:59 You know what?

6:00 I had a lot of fun.

6:01 I was it was People look down on look I feel like the the liberal

6:05 East Coast elites and West Coast elites which

6:07 I'm just trying to joke and joke around.

6:08 But like people look down on the Americana experience.

6:11 There is honestly nothing more fun than riding ATVs around the country.

6:14 Rodeo.

6:16 Shooting things.

6:17 There's there's a lot of of positives uh Picture this though.

6:21 So you know a bunch of exactly that like coastal liberal

6:24 elite advertising marketing-ish people who are in Austin for South by Southwest

6:30 and decide to venture out to go to the Austin rodeo

6:33 which just so happens to be happening at the same time.

6:35 And like everyone is staring at us.

6:37 You know what I'm saying?

6:38 It's kind of like everything is like inside out.

6:40 And we're like oh[ __] like we're not everyone is like what

6:43 what I loved about it is that everyone is just like in full

6:46 gear and they're like in it and they're like living and breathing

6:50 it and it's just like it was just such an interesting environment.

6:54 So I don't know if it made a a rodeo fan out of me,

6:57 but like if there's like a PBR tour that's

7:00 around like I'll definitely want to like check it out.

7:01 You know what I mean?

7:02 Cuz like the energy is like there.

7:05 Yeah, and PBR is an amazing I was I

7:07 think when you mentioned when you had initially mentioned

7:08 that tweet I had tweeted we had um we've

7:10 done some sponsorships when I was at Gel Blaster.

7:13 Gel Blaster was a complicated category cuz it's like a blaster.

7:16 So it's like you get into that Nerf kind of like okay,

7:20 some things you can't advertise some things you can,

7:22 but one of the events we did a lot of giveaways with was at PBR where we'd

7:25 like give away to a row kind of like a sports event and people would go crazy.

7:29 It was like the the energy was just insane.

7:32 I I think underrated American sport everyone should participate in.

7:35 That and I feel like the monster truck rally are like

7:38 four pillars of American experiences people should not miss out on.

7:41 Yeah, yeah.

7:42 Even even if it's just like a fringe thing like out of curiosity, you know?

7:47 Um and I I've been looking at at PBR events.

7:53 I heard the one at MSG's like a really big deal.

7:57 I don't know if they I'm trying to go to Corpus Christi.

7:59 You know what I mean?

8:01 [laughter] I'm trying to go to Oklahoma City.

8:02 Right.

8:03 Right.

8:04 All right.

8:05 Yeah.

8:05 I mean when I go to my next rodeo I I can I can say like when

8:08 I go to my next rodeo I I can I can say like this isn't my first rodeo.

8:11 Yeah, I feel like it opens you up for yeah

8:13 for for quips which is sort of the the tools of the trade.

8:16 You got to go.

8:17 Um so someone asked Veyron asked any thoughts on how

8:20 disconnected the industry was at Ad Week in NYC?

8:23 I did not go to Ad Week.

8:25 I I I I historically do not go to Ad Week.

8:29 Uh but I can I can comment on the state of what I call the circuit.

8:34 Which is what major marketers I e.

8:38 You know like agency folks and and brand folks have historically gone to.

8:44 It's sort of a rite of passage when you when you when you hit a certain level

8:47 of seniority you get invited to things like CES

8:49 and for a while it was like Mobile World Congress.

8:51 Then you'd go to South by Southwest and then you'd

8:53 go to Cannes and then there's like other things in between.

8:56 And you know it still matters.

8:58 It still counts.

8:59 There's a lot of deal making that can get done.

9:02 There is a lot of inspiration and like for me the value

9:05 is in like maintaining network growing network and being inspired by the work.

9:10 But I feel like over time the value of smaller events

9:16 like closed door events like basically an expansion of like a longer

9:22 tail like anti-circuit gives as much if not more value especially if

9:27 you're younger in your career because people tend to keep it real.

9:30 Whereas like the bigger the conference I feel like over

9:33 time it's it becomes a place to market to each other,

9:37 but in a way where it feels like it's becoming less than authentic

9:41 because the the whole industry has to I don't know maintain its buoyancy, right?

9:46 So you're not really you're not really incentivized to like kind

9:53 of I don't want to say like be honest and authentic,

9:55 but like you know if like let me let me

9:59 let me let me present like a a point of contrast.

10:02 Like, there was a reason why Davos this year became noteworthy, right?

10:09 Like, Davos used to be a place where

10:11 politicians and people who are interested in geopolitics

10:14 and like political operators uh used to flock

10:17 to and was not a place for marketers.

10:20 Right?

10:20 Like, why?

10:20 Why would Why would that be a place for marketers?

10:22 But then, you know, then then there's a luxury industry,

10:25 there's the high-end hospitality industry.

10:26 Like, they always kind of like market directly or indirectly to that crowd,

10:30 so they started showing up.

10:30 And then, over time, you start to see all of the like

10:34 fringe advertising marketing like media sort of like

10:38 that crowd of people sort of like become

10:42 interested in the topics of conversation that Davos featured.

10:47 And, you know, Davos is pretty unfiltered.

10:49 So, you'll get people like Jamie Dimon say things like, "Yeah,

10:52 there is whatever I'm making this up,

10:55 but like, there's a 17% chance that, you know,

10:57 because of the trends that are happening in the macro

10:59 with AI and this and that and the other thing,

11:03 um it will, you know, adversely affect white-collar growth in these sectors.

11:09 Like, it's like it doesn't all have to be positive news

11:12 because people need to keep it real at a place like Davos.

11:15 Because you go there to hear the realness, you know, like unfiltered.

11:19 I don't think that level of conversation is the norm for marketing conferences.

11:25 There's a lot of fugazi talk that you have to like

11:28 cut through to to to like get the real talk.

11:32 And, uh you know, usually you get that sort of honesty closed doors at like,

11:37 you know, the at the afters, basically.

11:39 Like, at the dinners after the conference or, you know,

11:42 if you go to Cannes, people keep it real up in the hills, you know?

11:46 Like like not the Croisette.

11:48 And and that's sort of like what you're doing.

11:49 Or in like when you you're like a little bit off the strip.

11:53 Same thing at CES.

11:54 It's like, okay, I can sit through, you know,

11:57 five keynotes and sort of like shake my head, "Sure,

11:59 I've heard that before." Rah-rah, like the industry is like hurting,

12:03 but you know, these are the things to look forward to.

12:06 And then, you go to dinner like an hour after and you see those same

12:09 people that were up on stage saying

12:11 something that is that that's a bit different, a bit more honest, right?

12:15 So, if you're an experienced operator and you've been there,

12:16 done that, you can like kind of take it in into context, but like I don't know.

12:20 I think there's a lot of value in like the other

12:22 stuff that presents itself as like optionality to like you know,

12:26 investing a lot of money to travel to these larger conferences at this point.

12:30 Yeah, so I was going to say, if you were a a younger person in your career,

12:33 um and or like middle stage, let's say,

12:35 and you're trying to be like, "Okay, should I go to any of these?

12:38 If it's in my city where I have an opportunity at work, you know,

12:41 what what do you What do you think of it?" And then like,

12:43 "How do you make the most of that?

12:44 How do you kind of put yourself out there?

12:45 How do you get in the right conversations?" Uh what I used to do like,

12:49 I don't know, like 20 years ago,

12:50 I'm dating myself, but when I didn't get access through work,

12:55 um I would just like I would just volunteer.

12:58 Right?

12:58 Like, I would literally email whoever was

13:01 operating the conference and say like, "Hey,

13:03 I have a few hours to donate to you guys on Friday, whatever you need.

13:08 The only thing I I I want in exchange

13:10 is like some access." And usually they'll say like,

13:14 "Oh, sure, you know, scan people's badges." Right?

13:17 So, I take I take a day of PTO and then they give me like sometimes they

13:20 give me an all-access badge for the whole thing

13:21 cuz just they're just thankful for the free labor.

13:24 Right?

13:24 So, that's like, you know, that's a little bit of arbitrage.

13:27 I mean, the other way is and I feel like I I I feel like

13:31 I might give it I might be giving away the cheat codes too easily here.

13:34 Dude, we'll all be like, "Dude,

13:34 if you're giving away the cheat codes to the 150 people that may be in and out

13:37 of this, I think we'll they'll they'll be

13:38 all right and that's probably a good thing." Yeah.

13:41 I don't know.

13:41 There there there there there are a lot of angles in, you know?

13:43 Like like how many how many companies sponsor like larger events, right?

13:48 Like, each one of those sponsors is a pathway in.

13:51 Right?

13:52 Um also, I you don't have to have a badge or a ticket to the main

13:56 thing to be immersed in the in the in the culture of the thing.

14:00 In in in a lot of ways, there's the more exciting and interesting and honest

14:04 stuff is happening away from the main thing.

14:07 Right?

14:07 And well, especially yeah, like Coachella just happened.

14:09 That's the whole thing about week week one, right?

14:11 It's like week two is a consumer experience.

14:13 Week one is everyone is there,

14:15 everyone is doing deals in the grid around

14:17 Coachella with nothing to do with the festival,

14:19 and it is big money in influence in OF world and like all

14:24 these kind of like subcultures that are don't have a place to meet.

14:27 Yeah, it's it is what it is.

14:28 It's true.

14:28 Well, is that differentiation between week one and week two?

14:31 Is that your POV or is that kind of how it breaks down?

14:34 I've actually [laughter] never been to Coachella, which is kind of good.

14:35 good.

14:35 Yeah, so those houses never they they don't exist weekend two.

14:38 So, basically, weekend one there's all these brand activations,

14:40 weekend two they're not there.

14:41 And so, basically, you'll get Yeah,

14:43 so like all these people that'll come like even like

14:45 like the road the 818 party is just week one.

14:47 There was no 818 house week two.

14:49 Like that that kind of thing.

14:50 And so, and then you'll get there's the ecosystem

14:52 of those you see on social and then the ones you don't.

14:54 And so, I remember like the joke this year was like everyone's like,

14:57 "You're going weekend two?" And it's like, "Yeah, I'm bringing my kid.

14:59 I he like Stormi can hang out at the 818 tequila house.

15:02 Like, my clout level isn't at that." [laughter]

15:07 Yeah, it's it's that's been on my bucket list for a while.

15:09 Like, it's it's it's I've had opportunities to go,

15:11 but I've I've opted out when I've had to do other

15:13 things and I feel like I'm I'm I'm at the point

15:15 where I'm like I don't I don't feel like it it

15:16 was it was cool to go like from a fun perspective.

15:18 Actually, this is you know, it's a bit of a tangent.

15:20 I was actually looking at the Stagecoach lineup,

15:22 yeah, which is like significantly better.

15:25 Well, I I think it I think it's a I

15:26 think it's been like universally acknowledged that like Stagecoach is kind

15:29 of like the new Coachella in terms of like scale that's

15:33 like smaller enough to feel a bit less of a spectacle,

15:37 but hyper-relevant in terms of the kind of acts they bring in.

15:40 And, you know, I mean I mean related

15:42 to the the rodeo stuff that we were talking about,

15:44 the the the cultural alignment with just like,

15:47 you know, the aesthetics of like Western culture that's kind of dominant

15:49 right now and in a way it's like I don't know.

15:53 I feel like certain people in my extended circles choose

15:56 to go to Stagecoach instead of Coachella at this point.

15:59 Usually like industry insiders when they've done Coachella enough times

16:02 and they need to choose between one or the other, it's like Do you choose So,

16:07 it's like choosing between Guy Fieri's

16:09 Stagecoach Smokehouse and Diplo's Honky Tonk,

16:12 which is a question of our times, really.

16:16 Is this Is this this year's lineup?

16:18 Yeah, this is where I literally this was earlier like 30 minutes ago.

16:22 My wife was like, "Lana Del Rey is Friday?" She said,

16:25 "What are we doing tomorrow?" [laughter]

16:28 Yeah.

16:28 You know what?

16:29 It didn't for some reason this year Stagecoach didn't

16:32 really catch fire at all on on on social, right?

16:35 Like

16:36 not yet.

16:36 Well, I think it was so overshadowed by um uh the Coachella stuff was so heavy.

16:42 So, for instance, um Bieber the Bieber thing

16:45 was just bigger than anyone could ever imagine.

16:46 Yeah.

16:47 Yeah.

16:47 And then, the drama, the cancellation of the influencers,

16:50 and like there's I think it was just

16:52 there was more attention on Coachella than ever,

16:54 and that raises everyone's views.

16:56 And now, there's just not that much drama with Stagecoach.

16:58 We're not going to see like the secret

16:59 lives of Mormon wives breaking up that week.

17:02 Like, maybe, but uh I don't know if that's if that's really happening.

17:06 But it is interesting.

17:06 I don't For those I know there's people

17:08 on YouTube here who know some of my lore.

17:09 Like, one of the brands I'm a partner in is a women's wear Western wear brand.

17:13 And Stagecoach and Coachella is our Super Bowl.

17:16 The last 60 days we have been just hammering chaps, fringe, everything.

17:23 And so, I'm like we're like very tied in to how big this has become.

17:26 But that's this whole like the economy around this is

17:28 like truly amazing where people will get their outfits,

17:31 they're making money for the year

17:32 from their influencer sponsorships There's like the merchandise,

17:36 there's the ripple effects of then all the tagged

17:38 outfits from there and the sales that that drives.

17:40 It's really incredible.

17:41 Listen, like I've been diving into like destination travel,

17:45 like why younger people are finding reasons

17:48 to like travel across the country for certain things.

17:50 And it used to be sports was the main thing, but now it's it's festivals.

17:54 And even even even with the the current state of the economy,

17:58 it's it's still the thing that people choose to you know,

18:00 some people choose to go in debt um

18:03 to to just experience these these cultural moments, you know?

18:06 Yeah, when they do spend, what was it?

18:07 The the stat was that it was like the majority of ticket payments were afterpay?

18:12 Yeah.

18:12 Yeah.

18:13 Yeah, like 40 something something crazy like 36% leverage some sort of BNPL,

18:19 which is kind of wild, but at the same time

18:22 have gone to CES and just wandered around.

18:26 [laughter] Right?

18:26 Right?

18:27 Yeah, whatever floats your boat.

18:29 How do you think I'm actually curious about that.

18:31 I So, prior to moving to California, I was a partner in an agency,

18:36 a contract engineering agency, where we specialized in like deep tech,

18:39 anything with an autopilot or autonomy.

18:41 Yeah.

18:41 Yeah.

18:41 And I went to CES every year, and it was our one of our biggest lead drivers.

18:45 Um meeting with people there, setting up meetings there.

18:47 Do you have a booth in the convention center?

18:49 Um yeah, yeah.

18:50 So, we would basically meet with people at that hotel right there.

18:53 We'd have passes, and we'd and we would get a suite if we had a lot to show off.

18:56 We'd get like, you know, uh But and then it was like retailers and whatnot.

19:01 There's client support, there's a whole bunch of things.

19:03 And it was really good lead source for us.

19:04 And then, I went like not this last year,

19:05 but the previous two, and it really felt like that.

19:08 Like, for the amount of excitement we have around technology,

19:11 that the excitement is not there at CES.

19:12 And I'm curious if A, you felt the same, and then B,

19:14 if you feel like is there a way to harness

19:16 this like tech zeitgeist in something like CES now?

19:21 Um I don't know.

19:22 Um and I I I've experienced the same thing.

19:24 I have the same opinion.

19:25 I think CES is one of those great,

19:28 storied, valuable festivals that has not recovered fully post-pandemic.

19:34 I don't know if it ever will.

19:35 I think part of the reason is because AI

19:37 has kind of eaten the whole technology narrative, right?

19:40 So, CES is not an AI conference necessarily,

19:44 and AI is such an intangible thing that is sort of baked into everything,

19:48 but it's very difficult to show off on a convention center the floor.

19:51 That it it's it's just kind of difficult for the larger tech industry to tell

19:58 their story in lieu of being able to like show a tangible thing, right?

20:03 Because the the the the the history of CES was that it

20:07 was it was essentially a trade show for like retail buyers.

20:11 So, like if you were a buyer at like, I don't know, Montgomery Ward in the '80s,

20:17 you would go to CES to take a look at all the refrigerators to figure out

20:21 which one you want to buy like in volume to stock on the show floor, right?

20:25 And then it became more of a like a hard technology conference over time,

20:29 but there was there was a period like

20:31 in the early mid-2010s where everything was very tangible, right?

20:35 Like that's when you That's when That's when we That's when we started going.

20:38 And I was working at a consumer drone company, and it was like an amazing

20:41 it was exciting.

20:41 Yeah, that's when it was exciting.

20:42 Everything felt new and um you know,

20:45 like I think that those were like the peak Alexa Google Voice days, right?

20:49 Uh they start baking that technology into like

20:51 every sort of appliance you can think of.

20:54 Um but also like

20:55 Yeah, yeah, that's the the birth of the Samsung refrigerator, you know?

20:57 Yeah, exactly.

20:58 Exactly.

20:58 I I get ads on them now.

21:00 Um or you can buy ads on them if you're a buyer.

21:02 But like uh Yeah, who's doing that programmatic buy?

21:04 I got questions.

21:05 But I think I think it's just it's different now and it's like every conference,

21:09 every marketing conference anyway, or every technology conference,

21:12 it's trying to find its way in an age where

21:14 AI has pretty much eaten or swallowed up the popular narrative.

21:19 Like what else is there to talk about at this point, Well,

21:22 I don't I feel like there's not So, I was at um It's actually funny.

21:24 I was at the It was the uh Google's developer conference.

21:28 Um I forget the name offhand.

21:30 But I did one of the I like did the video

21:32 at the conference that like did debut Veo 3 or something.

21:34 But that was a part of that.

21:36 And like no one understood what was happening,

21:37 like how big the implications are.

21:40 And I feel like even though there's all these attendees,

21:41 all this stuff, you can't even process the information.

21:43 Like the importance kind of like gets dissected

21:46 on X like a few days later and then travels.

21:48 I um I I wonder if I know Freepik had a conference

21:52 in like Spain that I think a bunch of people were at.

21:54 I'm I'm curious like where this energy can go.

21:56 So, you can feel the energy is like palpable online, I feel like in our lives.

21:59 But I don't feel like there's that hey I we have to go to this thing, you know?

22:03 Yeah, yeah.

22:04 And and they're getting more specific and and like, you know,

22:06 like I think um what's the big

22:07 Salesforce conference that happens in San Francisco?

22:10 Dreamforce, right?

22:11 Like that's one that's been around for a while,

22:12 but then you're seeing similar efforts from like Notion.

22:16 I think has one as well.

22:18 I I was I spoke at their one last year.

22:19 That was a That was a great one.

22:21 And very tailored very Notion, very tailored to their consumer base.

22:24 Sure.

22:24 Sure.

22:25 Like and they had they had like people from Anthropic.

22:26 It was It was a great lineup, yeah.

22:27 Yeah, yeah.

22:28 And at the end of the day, it's like it's B2B marketing for themselves, right?

22:30 But they do attract a larger community of people who

22:33 are just like like-minded or working in the same category.

22:35 And if you have a very limited amount

22:37 of dollars to spend on travel budget and like, you know, access to these things,

22:40 like if something like the annual Notion conference gets you

22:44 around the people that are not only your potential customers,

22:47 but just people you want to be around so that you

22:48 can like talk about the topics that are most important to you,

22:50 then like, yeah, you're going to go to that instead of like

22:52 a CES or like a South by at this point, right?

22:55 Yeah.

22:56 And it's also a great place to just meet the people from online.

22:58 I think one of the things that I've noticed um is

23:01 just like even when we were in China and we were like,

23:04 cool, we're going to do a meet-up,

23:05 how many people that came that I knew from these things or whatever.

23:08 Uh I think there is a a kind of especially

23:10 and it doesn't have to be some crazy thing either.

23:12 It's just like we're at this bar, we're at this coffee shop.

23:14 I think Ash and I and I did that once and we were at Canva Create.

23:17 And we were like, cool, we're both staying at the same hotel, come to the lobby.

23:20 And like, was it a little awkward at how

23:21 many people showed up in the lobby we didn't expect?

23:23 Yes, but did they care when they're selling a bunch of coffee?

23:25 It's like, no.

23:26 You know, like 100 people show up.

23:28 Yeah, it was it was actually it was actually funny.

23:29 And it was like at the It was at the Proper in Santa Monica.

23:31 And it was just like in that that whole like bottom was taken up.

23:33 But they're fine, people were buying stuff.

23:34 It's like, whatever, you know?

23:36 Um but like it's to the point of like you can just you can just do things.

23:38 But I think that in real life communication is big.

23:41 But related pivot, have you been to the LACMA Erewhon yet or is it I have,

23:47 but um the line was too long for me to like buy anything.

23:50 So So, I went to the the the LACMA um like

23:53 member preview for the new David Geffen Wing on what was it?

23:57 Sunday, which was like the first day for like whatever my membership tier was.

24:02 And it was great.

24:03 Ton of people.

24:05 Uh I don't know if you read too many reviews about the uh the new structure,

24:09 but it's like it's very brutalist.

24:10 It's very different than what a conventional

24:13 museum experience could be or should be, depending on who you ask.

24:18 I like it because it's so unconventional.

24:22 Um yeah, like it's it's very brutalist.

24:25 It's like, you know, raw concrete.

24:28 It's very big.

24:30 And it has no right angles.

24:33 So, you think of your Think of your typical museum experience, right?

24:36 It's like a series of It's like a series

24:39 of boxes that you go from one room to another, right?

24:41 And it's very structured and it's always very angular.

24:44 And the lighting is very specific to like

24:46 right angles in a conventional museum or gallery experience.

24:50 The new Geffen galleries are the exact opposite of that.

24:54 Like all the surfaces are smooth and there

24:56 are no right angles and it's sort of confusing.

24:59 It's sort of designed for you to get lost or like

25:02 create your own adventure versus it being a narrative that is controlled

25:06 by the curators of like your experience going from one room

25:10 from one room to another and like um uh like you know,

25:15 like one curated kind of section to another.

25:18 So, it's it's very unique in that respect.

25:20 A lot of purists are kind of hating on it.

25:22 But I think a lot of uh more like progressive

25:25 and open-minded um like art folk are actually embracing it uh cuz

25:29 it it does feel more reflective of like LA vibes um

25:33 given that it's like more relaxed and like I think more inclusive.

25:37 I think it is funny that there is an Erewhon

25:39 attached to it and I think it's a pop-up.

25:42 I think someone commented that it's actually only live through the summer,

25:45 but I would put money on it being there for like the long haul cuz it was Yeah,

25:49 well, the Erewhon positioned it as we're as a concept cafe.

25:54 Okay.

25:55 Which is what kind of service Erewhon is.

25:57 It wasn't a grocery store.

25:58 It was more of a

25:59 was Yeah, it's a smoothie

26:00 Yeah, yeah, it was like a smoothie bar, coffee shop kind of deal.

26:03 I do Yeah, I do love the um I guess people outside

26:05 of LA don't quite understand the like the cultural gravity of Erewhon.

26:10 Yeah, [laughter] the the the the the the full

26:12 dominant cultural force that is like the Erewhon brand.

26:15 This is I was texting one of my one of my good

26:16 friends works there and um we were I was texting earlier cuz

26:19 they have a they have a kitchen that we filmed some stuff

26:21 in the kitchen last year and it has like a gorgeous setup.

26:24 And uh that's like influencer ready, right?

26:26 And I was like, look, my my dream,

26:28 if I was to like take the podcast like a podcast for real,

26:31 it'd be like, can I invite elder like elder marketing people like Seth Godin,

26:36 Prof G, come with me to Erewhon.

26:39 We're going to shop.

26:39 And then I'm and we're going to cook in the Erewhon test kitchen.

26:42 Like and then while I interrogate you about the product.

26:45 And Bram was like, it's kind of like the dream content, honestly.

26:47 Yeah, yeah.

26:48 I mean, there there's a there's an idea

26:50 that I had that I almost executed at a previous

26:52 place of employment where uh I would take

26:54 senior marketers on a stroll in Venice starting

26:56 at the Erewhon and just walking down Abbot

26:59 Kinney and visiting different like retail experiences to just

27:02 basically teach them what some of them are doing

27:05 right from like an end-to-end like retail experience perspective.

27:08 Like everything from like curation to like ease of checkout to you know,

27:12 having conversations with like sales people and whatever.

27:15 And I almost got it through the finish line.

27:17 It just became like too impractical,

27:18 but like that's like a pop-up museum, right?

27:21 Yeah, you go there, then you go to JMM, and then there's like Jess and Durga.

27:24 There's like a such a hilarious selection that is

27:27 uh and how seriously they take it or not.

27:28 And And here here's the thing like this always gets to me, right?

27:32 And it's been like this since the beginning of time,

27:33 but the more senior the marketer, the more busy they are,

27:37 the more important it is for them to be exposed

27:39 to like all of these like like best-in-class retail experiences,

27:43 but they don't have any time, right?

27:46 And to hear about it secondhand or like read

27:47 an article about it is not the same as experiencing it.

27:50 So, there is value in that sort of like

27:52 IRL tour guide curated kind of like safari, if you want to call it that.

27:57 Like that's a literal business that no one has really like captured the value

28:00 of and like has an audience of people that would pay real money for, you

28:04 that's that's what's interesting cuz that's what we When we

28:05 did this China meet-up last year it during Canton Fair.

28:08 So, a lot of people were in for Canton Fair.

28:09 Yeah.

28:10 then we noticed we did this meet-up and we're like, hey I'm not familiar.

28:13 Fair is the largest manufacturing trade show in the world in China.

28:16 So, basically, they every factory from every

28:19 province goes and shows off their stuff.

28:20 It's 3 weeks long.

28:21 Each week is a different phase and it's like apparel is a week.

28:25 Yeah.

28:25 It It's just massive.

28:26 But basically, everyone goes there to go like work on their new products.

28:29 And and also a lot of Americans there whatever.

28:30 It's actually it's next week, I believe.

28:32 Uh it's like the good week this year.

28:34 But we did a Our value prop there was we're we're going to meet not at the show,

28:38 we're going to meet at like New Zhongdianmen, which is like a a hip area.

28:42 Okay.

28:42 And it was also the area where all

28:44 of the really the high-end textile places have their showrooms.

28:48 Yeah.

28:48 were going to walk you with our Chinese-speaking crew showroom to showroom.

28:52 And the people who were who were like, oh,

28:54 I wasn't going to go to China, but like I need someone to do that.

28:57 No one's ever offered to just like walk me

28:59 to the places cuz it's so complicated to figure out without it.

29:02 And so, we ended up we had like a train

29:03 of It was like 100-plus people that walking thing to thing.

29:07 And it was the same kind of concept of like like people that tour guide option,

29:11 whether it's something overseas or just like,

29:12 hey, it's a killer retail experience.

29:14 And then also having some people to share it with with their perspectives.

29:17 Um I yeah, I think it's kind of invaluable.

29:18 And I feel like the funny part about doing

29:20 it like almost like as a podcast bit is

29:21 like I feel like a lot of executives would

29:23 never make the time for it to your point.

29:25 Right.

29:26 But they would if there was some media being produced, you

29:29 [laughter] Oh, interesting.

29:29 Yeah, that's sort of like a value add for them, I guess, right?

29:33 Like for for for a number of years, maybe a decade if I add them all up,

29:38 um I would be one of the people responsible uh at various places

29:42 of employment of like taking senior executives

29:45 through the show floor at CES, right?

29:48 So literally I I I I get up at like midnight the evening prior to the show floor

29:52 opening because things were still being kind of constructed

29:56 and put up that morning and like run through it.

29:58 Like do a dry run, take notes, do research, like basically not sleep that night.

30:02 First thing the next morning you get like, you know, 15 CMOs and they're like,

30:06 "All right, you seem to know what's going on in the show floor.

30:09 Give me a 60-second kind of like run through So that's Sorry,

30:12 60-minute run through of like go Let's go station to station

30:16 and give me like give me the beats that I

30:18 need to go back to my board and justify to them

30:21 why I spent like whatever 20k like coming out here.

30:24 You know what I mean?

30:25 And that's all the time they ever spend in the convention center and the rest

30:28 of the time they spend on the strip or like at the Arya the Cosmo whatever like

30:32 like deal making cuz that's really what they're

30:34 there for, but they they they need to live

30:36 and breathe what everyone else is there

30:38 for for at least a couple of hours, right?

30:40 So I feel like every big conference

30:41 like just just what you you experience, right?

30:44 Like there are cottage industries.

30:46 There are levels to it.

30:47 Like there there there there there are ways to monitor There I don't

30:50 want to I don't know if I want to put it this way.

30:51 There there are ways to monetize your attendance at some

30:54 of these things just by taking advantage of like the knowledge gap.

30:56 There's like an arbitrage there.

30:58 Yeah, like and even what do you want to monetize?

31:00 Whether you just want to be the connector

31:01 or whether that's like the content piece.

31:03 Like I don't I think that's it's an interesting

31:05 I was just thinking about that at ShopTalk where Yeah.

31:07 there's so much marketing tech and so much of it's

31:09 not useful and I was like I didn't even make content

31:11 there besides the stuff I was doing for Klaviyo cuz I

31:13 was like there's just not I don't think anyone cares, right?

31:17 But then but the point is like, "Okay,

31:18 well if we did care and if it was like, 'Okay,

31:20 this is who you should visit and the questions you should

31:21 ask is is there value?'" But then I think the most interesting

31:24 part of that whole trip was that streaming room in the MGM

31:27 where they'll let you live stream and and go high stakes.

31:30 And so we went over there and it's like a huge box and so any

31:33 streamer basically all the streamers were getting

31:34 in trouble for trying to stream while they gambled.

31:36 Yeah, yeah.

31:37 were getting kicked out and then MGM was like,

31:38 "Oh, we'll just make a space for you,

31:39 but it's like high limit." And I thought that was interesting.

31:41 I was like, "Hey, I want to if you want to explain like the streaming

31:44 economy to the executives like take them

31:46 to the MGM and it's like Jake Paul playing, you know, No, that's super smart.

31:50 I I I would love to know who who came up

31:51 with that concept cuz it's that that requires like a you know,

31:54 a fundamental understanding of streamer culture.

31:57 Yeah, well I think Vegas is uh Vegas is very tapped in.

32:01 Um it's I think I I think they don't act on it.

32:04 I think as much as uh as they I think they are very aware cuz

32:07 I do think it just takes a lot to move any of those um especially now.

32:10 When Do you enjoy going to Vegas?

32:13 Not really.

32:15 To be honest.

32:15 I'm not I'm not I'm not Where do you go?

32:16 What's the preferred location?

32:17 I'm not a I'm not a gambler and like um um like I

32:22 end up there for I don't know the odd bachelor party or you know,

32:26 whatever what you know,

32:27 there's there always has to be like a center of gravity like pulling me there,

32:29 but I don't go I don't go there when I have like spare time.

32:31 Um the last last time I went there I stayed at Fontainebleau,

32:34 which is kind of a disaster because they poured so much money

32:37 into it and it's at like the top end of the strip.

32:39 And so I don't know like I I feel like Vegas as a whole

32:42 is kind of kind of like on the struggle bus right now.

32:44 They're trying to figure it out.

32:45 Absolutely.

32:46 When you when you when you can open up your phone and just kind of like,

32:48 you know, gamble however much on like you know,

32:51 on any number of platforms the incentive to like go

32:54 to Vegas and have that whole experience is is is waning,

32:57 which I think is which I think is sad.

32:59 There was always a reason to go to Vegas to gamble legally,

33:03 but now that you can do that in so many,

33:04 you know, in so many states on your phone,

33:06 it takes the luster away from it, right?

33:08 Like Yeah, absolutely.

33:09 And also people are just generally healthy.

33:11 Like I'm Yeah.

33:12 I might have a glass of wine, you know,

33:13 like and even even just to the level of like,

33:15 you know, yeah, it's just I think there's just

33:16 less like less less happening in that same way.

33:19 Um but the deals like are are still getting done.

33:21 Someone had asked Someone had a question here.

33:23 I actually I find it hard to articulate this correctly to people.

33:25 They're saying, "Erewhon's really that crazy over there?" And [sighs]

33:29 I just I think it's like it's just like a cultural staple.

33:31 It's just like it's an actual great place to get lunch and it's an activity

33:34 and everyone when it comes in from out of town always wants to go.

33:37 I don't know how would you explain it?

33:39 Yeah.

33:39 I I mean it's really hard to explain it,

33:41 but whenever I talk to someone or I encounter someone

33:45 who's just like curious about like what it's really all about,

33:49 I have like a few URLs that I send them.

33:53 One of them I feel like is a it's a New York Mag article from a few years ago.

33:56 It's and it's like a I I think the headline is

33:59 like Erewhon is like the IRL dating app or something like that.

34:02 It's like something funny like that, right?

34:04 Like and and and like the title's a little misleading,

34:07 but it goes into like why there is such a cultural gravity

34:10 around like this high-end pretty expensive

34:15 grocery store slash like hot food bar.

34:17 Um but I don't know like it's I think it's a combination of things.

34:20 I think you know, going to Erewhon is just one of the things

34:24 that people from out of town it's kind of like going to Disneyland.

34:29 Yeah, people from out of town want to do it and it's also a very

34:31 casual I don't know I don't know if this is the case with your friend group,

34:34 but I should be curious too.

34:35 Like so my friend group just like dinner stopped happening.

34:38 I think I think it's tirzepatide, retatide.

34:41 Yeah, okay.

34:41 So it's like so lunch is lunch is the thing.

34:43 Lunch is like the meal.

34:44 No one eats until noon they're intermittent fasting and then

34:46 they don't eat dinners anymore cuz of the peptides.

34:49 And so like lunch so it's like Good Kitchen

34:50 and Erewhon just dominate everything cuz that's like your meal.

34:54 And it's a and it's healthy and it's low

34:56 whatever and you can what whatever requirements you have.

34:58 And so it's just turned into like that is like everyone knows

35:00 it at the combination of those two things like four times a week.

35:03 And that's kind of an interesting like which

35:05 obviously was popular before that, but I feel

35:07 like there's just like very interesting like lunch

35:08 culture here that is not really anywhere else.

35:13 Yeah, I I think that makes sense and it it would be

35:17 interesting to see I like I don't know what their their ambitions are,

35:19 but like to scale beyond um the LA market.

35:22 I know they do like they've done the occasional pop-up and and and now

35:25 they have like like a growing e-com sort of operation, but Yeah.

35:31 I don't know I don't know if Erewhon like feel the same like outside of LA.

35:35 Um well I I got I got distracted

35:37 by the Erewhon conversation cuz the the comment was in there,

35:38 but I was leading the Las Vegas conversation into what Ty brought up,

35:42 which is the Sphere.

35:43 Um which I I love your take at this being like one of the most unique medias.

35:47 There should be spheres everywhere.

35:48 We should have a sphere in Tulsa,

35:49 but I I I think there I think there was an original plan

35:52 to have like multiple spheres like being built out like as we speak,

35:54 but it got shut they got shut down

35:56 for for a litany of reasons, but I don't know.

35:58 I've been to the spheres to the Sphere twice.

36:01 I I think I saw what was it?

36:03 Oz like Wizard of Oz.

36:06 Which I had like I didn't have any expectations for.

36:09 Amazing.

36:09 It was incredible and I met I actually met

36:12 with the Sphere team because they have a pretty robust like marketing

36:16 and sponsorships team now and they took me through um

36:19 a tour of like all the other hospitality spaces within the Sphere,

36:24 some of which at the time, and this was in January during CES,

36:28 had not opened to the the the general

36:29 public yet or or available to sponsors yet,

36:31 but um like the partnership they have with Delta,

36:34 like they have a pretty they have a beautiful lounge bar entertainment

36:39 like area situation that is Delta co-branded um that feels like it

36:45 could be like a really interesting like corporate sort of like retreat

36:49 kind of like if you want to throw a holiday party, right?

36:51 Like let's do it at the Sphere and then you watch a a show after.

36:54 So I didn't realize that that part of the experience is like you know,

36:58 like foundational to their business now in addition to making

37:01 the majority of their revenue off of like shows, right?

37:04 It's just it's just it's such an interesting business model.

37:07 It is a very unique format and once you experience

37:11 a concert or watch a film there you kind of want more.

37:16 Yeah, I was getting excited.

37:17 We we we saw like the postcard from Earth whatever.

37:18 I took my I took my son Yeah, yeah, yeah, I saw it too.

37:20 Yeah.

37:21 and my wife were we were immediately like,

37:22 "Okay, wait, like Illenium's playing here?

37:24 Like okay, when can we do that?" Yeah.

37:26 [laughter] Yeah.

37:27 And the fact that I mean the fact that everything is so bespoke like, you know,

37:30 you have to custom design and create just for that venue like it it kind

37:36 of deserves the ability for those experiences

37:39 to be cut and paste into like other spheres.

37:41 Yeah, that's that's why I completely agree.

37:43 I think the production has to scale almost, right?

37:45 Cuz like what if that was the pipeline?

37:46 Like, "Okay, you're a Coachella headliner and then

37:48 you immediately go into your Sphere run or whatever

37:51 it is and like you're able to adapt the size of the stage." Like I don't know.

37:53 But yeah, I think uh it's just it's interesting.

37:55 There's nothing novel anymore, right?

37:56 And that's like a purely novel entertainment experience that somehow

37:59 James Dolan is involved in and like yeah, Erewhon.

38:03 [laughter] In in in in a way I I feel like the Sphere accomplishes what VR

38:08 wanted to accomplish in terms of it being

38:12 a truly unique and like format specific experience,

38:16 but the fact that the Sphere is infinitely more shareable, especially on social.

38:21 Like it's a Like you can talk about how

38:23 great VR is and there are some great VR experiences,

38:26 but the fact that you can't like easily communicate that visually

38:28 to other people means that it's a hard it's a hard sell.

38:31 It's not as viral, right?

38:33 But when you go to the Sphere and you take

38:35 like a the whatever like a .5 like photo or video

38:38 of what you're experiencing it kind of it does lure people

38:40 like it it it does create that that level of curiosity.

38:43 Um have you been to the Sphere?

38:45 haven't seen a TVPN Sphere ad.

38:48 Like that seems like a natural culmination.

38:50 Maybe maybe they can pull off another barter deal

38:52 to like get some free ad space there for a mention.

38:55 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's actually another good conversation cuz I was like, man,

38:57 people don't um people don't understand how like a lot of this works, right?

39:01 So I guess we break down the barter deal scenario to as if

39:03 I'm not I'm not an expert on barter.

39:05 I'm not an expert on barter at all,

39:07 but like barter from a media perspective can be seen as a commodity trading,

39:13 but the trade will always be in your favor because

39:16 you're receiving like media kind of placement for it, right?

39:19 But you can you can trade anything for that.

39:23 And I'm probably like anyone who actually works in barter will will will email

39:27 me and get mad at me because this is not the actual like business model,

39:30 but essentially if you have like let's say let's say you're I don't know,

39:34 an apparel company and you have excess inventory you know,

39:40 sitting in a shipping container somewhere, right?

39:42 Like there's value in whatever that product is,

39:44 even if it's kind of marginally unsellable.

39:47 So you can you can choose to do several things with that.

39:49 You can like discard it and like burn it and like,

39:51 you know, kind of destroy the planet in the process, right?

39:54 Or you could go downstream to like discount retail

39:58 and like sell it like close to wholesale or like,

40:00 you know, kind of break even off of it.

40:02 Or you can sort of like take the value of that because the value

40:07 of that exists on a ledger somewhere

40:09 and barter that in exchange for media placement.

40:14 And there are there are there are companies,

40:16 quite large companies, that that do business trading,

40:23 you know, all sorts of things, billboards, you know,

40:26 YouTube like impressions, whatever, in exchange for commodity goods.

40:31 What boils down to commodity goods.

40:33 It it sounds very weird like like it it it's kind

40:36 like just the idea that like any asset could be traded

40:38 for another asset if you're willing to just get into the weeds.

40:41 And it's like it's like it's it's like kind of it's kind of in the shadows.

40:43 It's kind of like unofficial.

40:44 It's kind of like a hey, let's like not put anything in writing.

40:46 Like we've got to pick up the phone, you know, which is funny.

40:48 But like those deals go down.

40:50 And it's really interesting.

40:50 And like sometimes when you like have you ever seen a like a billboard?

40:55 I'm going to use a billboard for an example.

40:57 But like of like a random brand that shouldn't be

41:01 able to afford wherever that billboard is and you're like,

41:05 how did that happen?

41:06 Someone pulled a favor or you know,

41:09 it was a handshake deal or it was a bunch of you know,

41:14 like stale product that was traded for that so that I don't

41:17 know in a in a weird a weird sort of like barter

41:19 of this you know, we had a back when I again for those who don't know the lore,

41:23 we I we had some dispensaries in in LA

41:25 and Southern California when I first moved out here.

41:26 That's why I moved out here is we had some licenses.

41:28 And we had some a lot of out of home we were buying.

41:30 We would also very carefully look at, okay,

41:32 we're going to buy a short out of home

41:33 run at a place that doesn't often get renewed.

41:36 And basically bet that it's going to stay up because

41:39 they're not going to have anything to to replace it with.

41:41 And that worked 100% of the time.

41:45 [laughter] No, I love that.

41:45 I love that.

41:45 I love I love yeah, I I I love the idea

41:48 of investing in out of home placements that you know um would

41:52 be like too much effort for like the the the media owner

41:55 to like tear down at the end of like the official flight.

41:57 So there's[ __] it, leave it up, you know.

42:00 Well, this is this is good.

42:01 This ties back to the Coachella cuz I do look

42:02 that that Coachella alley billboard thing has become a phenomenon.

42:06 Um I was looking at the cost.

42:08 And it's like I don't you know,

42:09 it's like three to five grand for like some decent ones.

42:12 And I had seen I think there was one

42:13 or two it was like influencers I knew had some billboards.

42:16 I was like, oh[ __] Um and now I was like,

42:18 oh this is like a very realistic again

42:19 to the point of like a TV PM billboard or whatever.

42:21 Like there's only so many interesting media buys.

42:23 There's like obviously anything in New York you get a lot of exposure.

42:25 You have the San Francisco alley along the freeway.

42:28 You have the Coachella [clears throat] billboards.

42:30 But but like you could make a like a genuine impression.

42:33 Like if I did a promoting my Instagram series three grand

42:37 is like a totally reasonable price for all those people to see.

42:40 Yeah, so so from a media math perspective,

42:43 this is what still blows my mind because going

42:45 back to the very beginning of our conversation of like,

42:47 you know, there there D2C and growth marketers on one side and then

42:49 they're like big corporate kind of like agencies on the other side, right?

42:53 Um a lot of commonality between them.

42:55 But one of the things that is kind of lost in translation

42:57 is like the value of media beyond exposure from the primary placement, right?

43:02 So like for example, if I'm talking, you know,

43:04 with my big agency hat on, you know, if I buy a billboard,

43:08 like I'm going to probably need to communicate

43:10 like the value of that that billboard

43:12 vis-a-vis like the number of impressions that people

43:14 will encounter seeing the actual physical billboard, right?

43:18 And you know, to make a case that the actual value

43:23 is in the social impressions that are derived from people taking

43:28 photos of that billboard versus like just firsthand exposure are just

43:34 as valuable is like a point of contention and debate, right?

43:37 Like it's a because it's not

43:39 because it breaks classic media measurement convention.

43:43 Well, then also you have to assume and what I

43:45 would see is like or like people would be like,

43:46 oh well of course that campaign is going to get photos.

43:48 You're like, well that campaign sucks.

43:49 No one's going to take a photo of it.

43:50 So then you have to get into the nuance.

43:52 Yeah, and the nuance is like,

43:53 oh well how how how how valuable is like an exposure to like

43:57 an Instagram photo of the billboard versus you actually seeing it in real life.

44:00 And it's like, why are we even having this conversation?

44:02 Whereas on the other side, I feel like on the startup side,

44:04 on the growth side or on the if you want to call it the D2C side,

44:06 like that is more of a given.

44:08 Like you kind of understand that like

44:09 the value is almost totally in like the second

44:13 hand impressions that you get through social versus

44:14 like how many people see it in person.

44:16 And you see it play out like a lot more in the startup world, a lot more in like

44:20 Well, I think this point of Coachella is like the absolute

44:22 one where obviously a lot of people see that, but it's

44:23 like those it's going like the the value of that you

44:26 can basically measure EMV because of how much posting there is.

44:29 Yeah, so that that that's that's I think that's a key example of how how

44:33 similar and different like two ends of the spectrum

44:36 of marketing can be and how like

44:38 Yeah, that's interesting too.

44:39 Is there a crossover or is it in that combo?

44:40 Are they like using metrics or they like,

44:42 oh let's there's a there's the value of the of the standard

44:45 media and then there's the EMV value of what happens online?

44:47 Is that like does the conversation go there?

44:49 But it takes, you know, I'm not I'm not trying to gas myself up here,

44:52 but it takes someone like myself who has experience in both

44:55 and has the credibility working in both and having, you know,

44:58 case studies or firsthand um experience to like make

45:01 a case in a way that um can kind

45:05 of convince stakeholders that haven't had to deal

45:08 with that way of working for them to be convinced, right?

45:12 So I don't I don't know if that directly answers your question,

45:13 but like it it it it does require a different way of thinking.

45:17 Yeah.

45:17 It it it's it's it's unconventional in like the conventional world,

45:21 if that makes sense.

45:22 Completely.

45:23 I um I do think like look, the unique the the novel placement,

45:29 the like I'm not just buying a number on the board,

45:30 I'm buying a potential outlier, whether that's like a sphere.

45:34 Cuz I always think about that.

45:34 Like the sphere thing is basically you're hoping for that, right?

45:37 I I remember like the Timothy Chalamet one was the last one.

45:40 And I remember and that was like paid for by Cash App.

45:43 I I don't [laughter] quite understand the full economics, but yeah.

45:47 Yeah, it's like um I remember that was everyone's initial reaction too because

45:51 their their their initial price tag for all

45:53 those things were or or for you know,

45:55 standard rotation rotational placement like really expensive.

45:59 Yeah, for like 400k or something like that.

46:00 Yeah, and and of course everyone pushes

46:01 back on that initially because they're like,

46:03 um how many people are going to see it?

46:05 Like I get that it's impressive, but like where's the real value there?

46:10 Like I can I can I can do like a you know,

46:12 a plethora of other things that would be more recognizable like, you know,

46:16 like I can buy a 30-second spot during the NBA finals for the same price

46:20 as like two weeks on the sphere where

46:22 I have like 10% share of voice or whatever.

46:25 But like at the end of the day,

46:26 it's a much it's like not an apples to apples comparison.

46:28 It almost requires like I feel like I feel like the sphere almost

46:31 requires you to go to Vegas and see it from different angles, right?

46:33 Like you see it on on the way there

46:35 from like like when you're touching down on the plane.

46:37 And then you see it up close and you're like,

46:39 oh[ __] this is actually really impressive.

46:40 Then you go inside and you're like, oh I didn't realize it was this big.

46:43 And then you and then you realize that other

46:44 people are like talking about it a lot because it

46:47 is a singular thing that is like new and shiny

46:50 and like actually as impressive as it's marketed, right?

46:54 But you you that that sort of thing

46:55 isn't really communicated very well like in a deck.

46:58 Yeah, I feel like the European mind can't comprehend this.

47:03 [laughter] What is the equivalent?

47:04 I mean, I it's sort of like I don't know.

47:05 Like the the would you would you say that the would would the awe

47:09 that it inspires is the same as like seeing the Eiffel Tower for the first time?

47:12 Like It's like a hundred Big Bens.

47:17 [laughter] By the way, have you seen um have have you been to to Coz m?

47:20 No.

47:21 So so Coz m I feel like it's it's like it's a it's like sphere junior.

47:26 It's not trying to replicate sphere, but it is a new format and it's really

47:28 interesting because they do a lot of live sports there.

47:31 And that yeah, and this is the that's the new LA stadium thing, right?

47:34 Yeah, it's newish.

47:35 It's in LA.

47:35 I think it's in like Inglewood-ish or like I'm probably getting that wrong.

47:39 Is this where the It's the first off it's the South Bay.

47:41 No, no, no, no.

47:42 It's it's not it's not it's not a stadium.

47:44 It's like a self-contained kind of like it it really does feel like

47:47 sphere junior where it's like a a wrap-around like 180 or more like degree.

47:53 Yeah, so if you click into what the the stadium experience is, I think.

48:00 Like it does look like a little bit of a sphere, right?

48:02 You have a dome.

48:05 Oh, I'm in.

48:06 Yeah, I I've gone to yeah,

48:09 they have all sorts of sports and they broadcast they simulcast it live.

48:13 It's interesting because some of the vantage points do make you feel

48:15 like you're you're you're like sitting courtside or like behind home plate.

48:19 Um but what I love I've gone to a few live sporting events there

48:23 and the way like like the crowd experience does feel like you're at a game.

48:29 It's like it is it's not a one-to-one replacement, but it's pretty close to it.

48:34 Um we can share reality.

48:36 Yeah, I I've heard some like mid reviews of that because I don't know.

48:40 Yeah, but I guess like being able to see Lakers-Rockets

48:43 in that for 58 versus whatever godforsaken number it's going to be at crypto.

48:49 [laughter] I've actually I've actually gotten up super early

48:50 in the morning to watch like like English Premier League games.

48:54 Um Damn, you're one of those guys.

48:56 Let's go.

48:56 I'm not I'm not.

48:57 I'm like, you know, I kind of pick the fun when it comes to like a.m.

49:00 Manchester versus Liverpool at Coz m is like, yeah,[ __] I'm in.

49:04 No, no, but you know you you know when you're when you're

49:06 when you're rolling up to something like this at 7:30 in the morning,

49:09 100% of the people there are going to be hardcore.

49:12 Are you absolutely That's what I'm [laughter] there for.

49:14 That's the way to go.

49:14 I mean that's why that's why I got to kick out

49:16 of going to the rodeo because everyone is all in, right?

49:18 So it's the same thing as going to Coz m at 7:30

49:20 in the morning with like a bunch of English blokes, right?

49:22 You're like, I I just want I want to feel what everyone else is feeling.

49:26 Yeah, is is that the old that's the only one

49:28 I assume or is there like a New York version?

49:31 I think it's the same thing where there is a plan for expansion,

49:34 but I believe that's the only one.

49:36 And it is again, it's like a hyper-specific format.

49:40 I don't know if they're doing particularly well.

49:42 The interesting thing about the Cos is that uh

49:44 there is like the stadium seating part of it,

49:46 which is like the main totally immersive um like um you know, experience.

49:51 But then there is like a more conventional bar

49:55 uh and seating arrangement that is actually pretty good.

49:57 Like as far as like, you know, if you want to go to like a dive to watch

50:00 like a playoff game with like 10 buddies or something, it's a like a legit spot.

50:04 So, I I feel like it's under-marketed.

50:07 And I feel like they're trying

50:07 to figure out the balance between like entertainment, like the the Matrix thing,

50:10 and like live sport, of which, you know, there's only so much inventory,

50:13 and like licensing arrangements are expensive and stuff like that.

50:15 But you kind of get a sphere-esque experience out of it because it's so unique.

50:20 Yeah, and that's a I just feel like the more

50:23 the there's so few truly novel things that when there are,

50:26 it's like it's an interesting opportunity.

50:28 Yeah.

50:29 And so this this may have been conversed to death,

50:31 but I was originally I I have like an arc

50:33 I have like an arc plan based on the outline.

50:35 But it was like, "Okay, go from the the the sphere uh like out of home

50:38 to the Nike marathon." We we skipped back to Cos.

50:42 okay.

50:42 am I know it's kind of been talked talked to death,

50:44 but um I saw that they were doing even more.

50:46 There's like more response ads today.

50:49 I was just like I hope I I've been talking with this term uh I'm doing a a talk

50:53 next week with Ashwin and Jordan when we

50:55 were we're trying to find the right word.

50:56 The word we have tentatively is like rapidity, which is not the right word.

50:59 But there's this thing of like the speed to response.

51:02 Yeah.

51:03 That like if you're like responding to the Nike marathon ad now,

51:07 that's just like really cursed.

51:08 Yeah, it's like it doesn't even matter if it's good at this point because

51:11 like the fact that you're this late by definition means it's it's not good.

51:16 I think uh there there was a certain

51:17 footwear brand that came out with something today,

51:19 and like the copy was clever but not great.

51:22 And they shouldn't even they shouldn't have even been

51:24 in the conversation to be honest because they're not at that level.

51:26 I have a very particular POV and position on like

51:30 what Nike did and how the community reacted to it.

51:35 And I have a very specific opinion that a lot of people don't agree with.

51:39 Really?

51:39 Well, so what what is it?

51:40 What's the what's the take?

51:42 Uh my take is that I don't think that Nike should have capitulated.

51:47 Absolutely agree.

51:48 I feel like they should have doubled down.

51:50 I feel like, you know, I unlike you,

51:56 I'm not and I'm not pointing the finger or anything.

51:58 No, it's good.

51:58 I'm I'm I'm I'm rooting I'm rooting for Nike, right?

52:01 I I think they're a storied American brand.

52:03 I respect the hell out of them.

52:05 They're you know, they were part of my upbringing.

52:07 I feel like they they created they

52:10 created the commercial formula for leveraging like athlete/celebrity/subculture.

52:17 Like they got it right for so long.

52:19 And now they're not having their best days, years, whatever, right?

52:23 But I feel like the spirit of that copy

52:26 of which a singular example was made of of like,

52:29 I don't know, dozens of pieces of copy for that particular marathon,

52:33 of which that campaign is that was one

52:36 of many different of many marathons over the past like,

52:39 what, 18, 24 months where they had similar tonality, similar copy.

52:44 For whatever reason, someone took a photo of that one example,

52:48 posted it on LinkedIn, and then it was over at that point, you know?

52:52 And I was just I was I I I I was disappointed

52:56 that um that they essentially had to apologize because here's my position.

53:03 I I'm being very long-winded about this, but No, let's go.

53:05 This is where we're on live.

53:06 We have nowhere to be.

53:09 My opinions are not reflective of the opinions of my employer,

53:11 all that stuff, whatever.

53:12 But like um not every ad is for every marketer.

53:20 You know what I mean?

53:20 I think there's I think something's happened, and I blame algorithms, okay?

53:26 I And I know I'm this is a very Now,

53:28 speaking of arcs, this is a very long arc takes me,

53:30 but I was I was I was actually thinking about this like

53:34 our experience with ads at this point is pretty hyper-specific, right?

53:40 Like you open up Instagram, and 85% of the ads that you'll be exposed

53:45 to are pretty specific and tailored to you, right?

53:48 And I feel like over time that kind of affects the way

53:51 that you think the purpose of advertising as a whole is, right?

53:56 And the fact that people tend to spend more time consuming media that, you know,

54:01 has an algorithmic ad model that serves you you know,

54:06 personalized advertising more than people watch broadcast media in which

54:10 you'll be exposed to ads that maybe aren't necessarily for you,

54:12 they're for other people,

54:13 but like you're exposed to them anyway because it's linear television, right?

54:17 Like that used to be the default.

54:19 The default used to be you used to watch TV, and you know,

54:21 maybe half of the commercials would like actually resonate with you as a person,

54:25 and the other half like you would

54:26 understand fundamentally that it wasn't for you.

54:29 So, you wouldn't develop an opinion about the messaging because you

54:32 would have a fundamental understanding that those ads were not for you.

54:36 I feel like because of uh algorithmic ad exposure,

54:42 we've sort of been primed to think

54:44 that like nearly every every advertising message,

54:47 regardless of if it is broadcast or hyper-specific hyper-specific,

54:51 like we kind of have been like primed to receive it as if it were us for us.

54:57 And then you react to it with either, you know,

54:59 you adulation or or offense based on the assumption that it is for you.

55:06 So, here's where I'm going with this.

55:08 That piece of copy by Nike was not meant for the general public.

55:12 That piece of copy was meant for people who are running the marathon,

55:16 which I would think, you know, by and large like like like hardcore runners.

55:20 Like the Boston marathon is not every marathon, right?

55:22 Like no more than like 10 or maybe 15% of people can like,

55:26 you know, like qualify by by charitable donation.

55:30 Like the vast majority of people for the Boston marathon have

55:33 to be like really good marathon runners and qualify for it, right?

55:36 So, you're pretty hardcore.

55:37 Absolutely.

55:38 you're if you're to how many people?

57:43 Exactly.

57:44 Here's the thing, like the the the the the the ad was intended for the however

57:48 many thousands of people were actually running the marathon

57:51 towards the end where like you can use,

57:54 you know, some prodding or some motivation.

57:57 Like if you're if you're, you know, if you're if you're if you're,

57:59 you know, 22 miles in you see that, that's motivation for you, right?

58:02 You're like, "Fuck yeah, let's go." should be doing.

58:05 Nike If Nike is If Nike is still good at one thing,

58:08 it is some good copy for a core demo.

58:12 Which is why I think that if Phil Knight was still around,

58:17 he would have been like,

58:18 "We're doubling down on this," you know,

58:19 because at our core, we serve the athlete.

58:23 And yes, you know, different different business units,

58:26 different product lines might have um you know,

58:28 different messaging, but like at our core, we serve the athlete.

58:31 I I I don't I don't know if that's really what

58:34 the the the mantra and what the values are right now currently,

58:36 but to me, like, you know, N of 1,

58:39 like my opinion is that like they they need to double down on the athlete.

58:43 That's who they've always been, right?

58:45 Like that's Well, the argument was like, "Oh,

58:46 they need to they need to serve the walkers." Was the argument.

58:49 And it's like the walkers don't want to be served as walkers.

58:52 The whole point of marketing is that it's aspirational, right?

58:55 Like Yeah, yeah.

58:57 I mean, you know, I'm sure a lot of people will want

59:00 to argue this, but my my like I agree with you, yes.

59:03 But the thing is if if if that copy was at like, you know,

59:07 my local like 5K on a Sunday morning, yes,

59:10 I would agree with people being it cuz it's speaking to the audience marathon.

59:15 It's the Bos Yeah, it's the Boston marathon.

59:18 And I feel like that that Not the Tulsa Turkey Trot, you know?

59:21 There was, you know, you know, shout-out to Tulsa.

59:23 I you know, I like Tulsa.

59:24 Yeah, we love Tulsa.

59:25 If you're ever in Tulsa, go go work out at Sky.

59:29 I I feel like that context Man,

59:34 I I I don't want to say things I don't want to say, but like It's fine.

59:38 It was really disheartening to see senior marketers on LinkedIn ignore

59:44 that necessary context to and I don't want to say version Yeah,

59:50 cuz I just I don't So look,

59:52 I am we both live and breathe a combination of having

59:56 to do some actual work and understand what's happening in culture, right?

1:00:01 For our own personal reasons and professionally.

1:00:03 Sure.

1:00:04 And I what is the take that like is it just to be contrarian?

1:00:10 Is it to fit in?

1:00:11 Like like I'm trying to understand the LinkedIn take there.

1:00:13 Cuz for instance, like I don't know anyone

1:00:16 who can give me an avid disagreement for that.

1:00:18 Like in my group of like very varied marketing branding friends, right?

1:00:23 Yeah.

1:00:23 I don't think anyone disagrees with where our position So I'm really

1:00:25 curious and I'm not on that side of LinkedIn or any side really.

1:00:28 My LinkedIn pops all the time.

1:00:29 So curious what what the argument is.

1:00:33 And do you think that argument is representative of them

1:00:35 actually believing it or is it to be contrarian?

1:00:39 I don't know.

1:00:40 I I I wish I wish I knew.

1:00:42 But it pulled me in to the point where like I was You're like,

1:00:46 "God damn it." I was debating it.

1:00:48 Um but I don't know.

1:00:51 I I you know, LinkedIn is not it's not a foreign country to me,

1:00:54 but I don't have a LinkedIn strategy.

1:00:55 I I consume a lot more than I produce there.

1:00:57 It's like it's a very different

1:00:58 conversation than any other conversational platform.

1:01:01 I think there's a lot there's Well,

1:01:03 there's a lot of marketing professionals on there.

1:01:05 I look at like look, Threads is really active, X is really active,

1:01:07 LinkedIn is really active and there is not really any marketing

1:01:11 chatter on besides some like pretty pretty poor D2C chatter on X.

1:01:17 Threads is non-existent on the marketing chatter

1:01:20 and then LinkedIn seems to be like significantly more,

1:01:22 but then it's very very oddball takes.

1:01:26 Yeah.

1:01:26 You know what?

1:01:27 This is an interesting topic.

1:01:28 I don't I do not think there is like

1:01:30 a default home for marketing conversation at this point.

1:01:34 Right?

1:01:35 I think on on on on Twitter it's very much more of like

1:01:39 a a startup growth D2C if you want to call it D2C DNVB like oriented.

1:01:45 Yeah, and it but it's very skewed toward

1:01:46 like this like quantitative Yeah, which is fine.

1:01:49 Also by these guys who take that too seriously, yeah.

1:01:51 Yeah, and like low lower funnel like performance like like very very very much

1:01:56 frankly just have never had to do brand cuz those kind of people aren't

1:01:58 on None of my friends who are real brand people would ever be on X.

1:02:03 Which is which is fair, which is fine.

1:02:05 But it's not like it's not like brand people live on LinkedIn.

1:02:10 You get like a hodgepodge on LinkedIn and even like execs.

1:02:13 Like what would you describe the poster type as?

1:02:15 Cuz they're like I I I see them, you know.

1:02:18 Um I don't know.

1:02:18 I think I think everyone on I think everyone

1:02:21 on on on Twitter is just kind of like That's a place on LinkedIn than that.

1:02:25 Like what's that demographic?

1:02:26 Like how would you describe them?

1:02:28 I I think I think on LinkedIn everyone is just auditioning for their next job.

1:02:32 Yeah.

1:02:32 And then having and just even being having a take or doing whatever.

1:02:36 Yeah, yeah, and I feel like uh people are

1:02:38 are very uh people are really cautious on LinkedIn.

1:02:40 Like it's sort of like there's this attitude that like H

1:02:43 HR is watching even though like there's no HR on LinkedIn.

1:02:46 It's like to to say anything like that is

1:02:48 like net negative is like why would you do

1:02:50 that in a place where you're meant to market yourself

1:02:53 for your next job is the way that I see it.

1:02:55 You know what I mean?

1:02:55 So you know, I I I get I get called out

1:02:59 for whenever I have a contentious take on something I disagree with.

1:03:03 And to me that's a reminder that that's just not the general vibe.

1:03:07 You know, like it's not a place to really debate in an authentic

1:03:09 way because it's not what it's meant for, which is fine.

1:03:12 It's just I'm still I mean I I I don't know

1:03:14 where that place is other than like IRL at this point.

1:03:17 it is IRL.

1:03:18 I'll even give it like look, even like the airspace in New York is like okay,

1:03:21 there's breaking and entering trivia every like all the time.

1:03:24 There's events there constantly.

1:03:25 Like that's the time place I probably

1:03:26 met the most other marketers like conjunctively

1:03:29 and that's again it's an IRL and then uh and they're they're on Instagram.

1:03:33 They're consuming on Instagram.

1:03:35 That's why I find it interesting.

1:03:36 Even the younger generation.

1:03:36 Like there's this girl Brooke who's on my same um management agency.

1:03:40 Her she's the brand blueprint on Instagram

1:03:41 and she has like a younger female marketing perspective.

1:03:44 Yeah.

1:03:44 Her her page is booming and the girls are sharing it

1:03:47 with each other inside these like in like junior mid-level roles.

1:03:50 I'm sure it goes upwards from there, but you're like, "Oh,

1:03:52 that conversation is actually happening." And it's an interesting

1:03:56 um to to like see how that splinters.

1:03:58 Like even sub the Substack conversations so Substack, you know,

1:04:01 it's a I do feel like you're right that there's not that space

1:04:04 and I do feel like there was a significant space for X on that before.

1:04:07 Um There was.

1:04:09 Like there was pre-pandemic, I think.

1:04:11 Uh a lot a lot of people like hard defective.

1:04:13 I think when when ownership changes well, I think a lot of people left out

1:04:17 of like principle or values or whatever and they

1:04:20 never came back and and and I don't

1:04:21 know where they decamped to because you know,

1:04:23 you can't have the same level of conversation on LinkedIn.

1:04:27 Uh but you know, I I dip into and out of like you know,

1:04:29 several places to get my information,

1:04:30 but I like the Instagram like the in-feed Instagram conversation

1:04:35 of the like that you just explained is a blind spot for me.

1:04:38 So maybe that's something that I should like dip into.

1:04:40 Like my my Instagram consumption is more entertainment

1:04:44 based and it's not like knowledge or career based.

1:04:47 I feel like they skew younger,

1:04:48 but I feel like you're convincing me that there's a lot

1:04:50 of value to mine there in terms of like the conversation.

1:04:53 Well, yeah, well there's a couple layers of conversation.

1:04:55 What's interesting with Instagram is it's really about what

1:04:57 you consume and if you like So for instance,

1:04:59 like my wife's algorithm because she consumes content with my son,

1:05:01 they'll watch like animal videos to like have some

1:05:04 fun or whatever like if we're like in a car.

1:05:06 That skews the entire algorithm forever.

1:05:08 She's always going to have like a weird, you know,

1:05:10 but but there is a lot there's like tiers to it where

1:05:13 um And so like the younger Instagram marketing thing is a real thing.

1:05:16 And there's a couple people there's uh grad girl marketing.

1:05:18 She's like very carousel driven.

1:05:20 There's Brooke.

1:05:20 There's a few others where they are like

1:05:22 educating a whole generation of what campaigns happened,

1:05:24 what are all the cool beauty brands doing, what happened at Coachella.

1:05:27 And again, it's like entry-level terminology and stuff,

1:05:30 but it is driving a real conversation, right?

1:05:32 Cuz it's all about the shares.

1:05:33 And then you get upper level of conversation to like more

1:05:35 tactical stuff and like the kind of content I used to make,

1:05:38 kind of like Ash will make a lot of content like this or like big by niche.

1:05:41 And then you get into like esoteric level Instagram,

1:05:43 which there's a lot of like there's some

1:05:45 very conceptual stuff you kind of have to dig.

1:05:47 Um but yeah, but again,

1:05:48 it's not conversational to the point of like it's in the comments.

1:05:50 It's using Instagram's designed to spark a conversation.

1:05:53 It wants you to share it so you have a conversation

1:05:56 on platform in DMs or in a Slack or whatever.

1:05:58 It's it's not a vehicle to have even like a live like this, right?

1:06:01 It would be less interactive.

1:06:02 Um I think that's just an interesting note.

1:06:04 But that that ties into the I think the next topic

1:06:06 which I want to hit which is like where do you consume?

1:06:08 What is worth consuming at this point as someone who wants to like

1:06:12 be in touch with what's happening and like have good opinions about it.

1:06:15 So I I I think for me this has been evolving like in real

1:06:18 time um since I do spend so much time on Twitter {slash} X.

1:06:25 Um and you know, the nature of the way

1:06:26 that information travels is very specific there.

1:06:29 Um and all with all this new media sort of like

1:06:32 I do think new media quote unquote is a thing.

1:06:35 I do think I do think it matters and I do feel like the information value,

1:06:40 the information stream that comes from there is

1:06:41 something to pay attention to, but it's like

1:06:44 it's difficult because it's always on and it's

1:06:46 like you have you have to, you know, Yeah, look, honestly,

1:06:48 A16Z's Instagram is better than the the the X tech slot cannon, you know.

1:06:53 Right.

1:06:53 It's it's a sort of like they should kind of spin out,

1:06:55 but So so if if if we wanted to treat this as a barbell,

1:06:59 like the more I pay attention to the things of the moment like i.e.

1:07:02 like new media, the more I kind of try

1:07:05 to counterbalance that with like journalism with a capital J.

1:07:09 And we can debate, you know, the value of that.

1:07:11 Well, yeah, we we should debate So like I I have some strong takes about Nike.

1:07:14 I have strong takes about traditional journalism,

1:07:15 but also I have a position as a content creator.

1:07:19 Sure.

1:07:19 I position against specific things and for a specific reason.

1:07:22 And like and you have to repeat those positions until

1:07:24 the end of time before people even get the point, right?

1:07:27 Your your your the value of your takes

1:07:29 and your POV and and and and like you know,

1:07:33 the the perspective that you offer has to be

1:07:35 in reaction to something that's in the mainstream, right?

1:07:38 Absolutely.

1:07:38 So I I I would actually always argue for and this isn't for like,

1:07:41 you know, capital J journalism or whatever,

1:07:43 but like there has to be a center of gravity for you to react to and the health

1:07:47 of that center of gravity is as important as the health of like creators, right?

1:07:52 Um I mean, that's a very simplistic way of putting it, but like, you know,

1:07:55 if there wasn't a Wall Street Journal to crank out like the mainstream

1:07:58 news to react to, there would be nothing to react to, right?

1:08:02 Again, a very simplistic way of putting it,

1:08:04 but to directly answer your question,

1:08:05 I feel like so so my consumption is becoming more

1:08:07 of a barbell and I know that's like really cliché.

1:08:10 So for every Substack that I end up

1:08:11 paying for, it's sort of counterbalanced with like making

1:08:14 sure that I have an equal amount of like

1:08:16 subscription going to things like Reading Harper's, you know.

1:08:23 [snorts] Well, there is a catchall.

1:08:23 I do pay for Apple News Plus, which is kind of like a Which is which is

1:08:26 honestly one of the best things you can pay for.

1:08:29 so, too.

1:08:29 Yeah.

1:08:30 Can can I get Substack Apple News Plus where it's just all size all

1:08:33 my substacks so I can just pay 20[ __] dollars and not I would.

1:08:36 constantly canceling all this[ __] cuz people just send their food tips.

1:08:39 I I would have to I would I would be willing to pay

1:08:41 $100 a month to Substack if they gave me like a rotating like,

1:08:44 you know, like five or six premium substacks

1:08:47 that could qualify for that tier or whatever.

1:08:49 Like there has to be more innovation in in in the way that people can

1:08:52 choose to spend their money on Substack

1:08:53 cuz it gets really expensive really quickly, right?

1:08:56 Yeah, absolutely.

1:08:56 And then also the quality level is like someone will publish like two

1:08:59 amazing things and then they're giving me like their four tips or whatever.

1:09:02 I'm like, "Yo, this is just not the thing, right?

1:09:04 Like I'd rather not get any of your fan.

1:09:07 I'm guilty of that.

1:09:08 I haven't published on Substack since like 20 24.

1:09:11 asked about that up in the comments.

1:09:12 Someone There was like an early comment on there.

1:09:14 I'm going to hunt it down.

1:09:15 Where was asking about your Substack in particular.

1:09:16 Here we go.

1:09:17 No, you got it.

1:09:20 Yeah, so like please shame me into, you know, motivate

1:09:24 charged with thousands of dollars for subs every month.

1:09:26 Listen, listen.

1:09:27 Um like a lot a large part of this conversation,

1:09:30 like are things that have been in my head

1:09:32 or in drafts for either short form video, which I, you know, whatever.

1:09:37 I'll take cut 30 like five times and never publish a video.

1:09:40 And like subs I have like 30 substacks

1:09:42 on draft where I'm just like, "You know what?

1:09:44 Not good enough." So, I'm not pub- I won't publish I just No,

1:09:46 look, the the quality barometer thing is is real.

1:09:49 Especially now, like What What is a Define quality barometer.

1:09:53 What do you What do you mean?

1:09:54 Like has to be good enough publish anything on substack.

1:09:57 Like it's easy on X, it's easy to talk about whatever,

1:10:00 but if if you want to publish an Instagram video that hits

1:10:03 or you want to publish a substack that's actually worth reading,

1:10:06 it like kind of has to be It's no longer

1:10:09 I can present this thing that happened in my take.

1:10:11 It's kind of like I need to present this thing that happened

1:10:13 in my take and then like this research that takes it to a secondary concept,

1:10:16 which is like I structure all my content that way now and it's That's work.

1:10:20 Yeah, it's hard, but like you reap the benefits of it,

1:10:23 but like you've done the work over time.

1:10:24 It's just It's sort of debilitating to know that I I feel like

1:10:28 I'm a I'm a I'm a bit behind because I haven't had reps,

1:10:30 but at the same time I'm just so Twitter brained that it's

1:10:33 so much easier for me to just pump out like individual thoughts.

1:10:36 It is It's easier.

1:10:37 And Twitter's addictive in so many ways to convince you

1:10:41 to just make little shitty stuff and then that has

1:10:43 some level value and it's easy and it's like I

1:10:45 think it really gets to a number of friends of mine,

1:10:47 honestly, where I'm just like, "Hey,

1:10:48 if you would just put any level of intention,

1:10:50 like just just block it." Like Look,

1:10:52 best thing in my life This is the best thing in my life.

1:10:53 The brick is like Yo, I I I have so many people that I know

1:10:59 that that literally like like brick is like It's like a strong brand.

1:11:04 It's kind of like a luxury It's like a luxury item at this point, seriously.

1:11:08 Yeah, like I don't have one, but like I should get one, probably.

1:11:11 But it's just like there's a day I looked It was the other day

1:11:13 I looked at how long my the brick was like on your home screen.

1:11:15 It was like 11 hours and I was like,

1:11:17 "Holy shit." Like I I was just[ __] cranking, you know?

1:11:21 But let me let me let me go back

1:11:23 and answer your question cuz I actually do have a list.

1:11:25 Like every morning I have one of these like one

1:11:28 click opens up all the tabs at the same time

1:11:30 and then like before I start my work day I

1:11:32 like read the headlines just to make sure like you know,

1:11:35 I already do like one or two clicks deep

1:11:37 to make sure that I know what's going on.

1:11:38 So, there's there's Twitter, right?

1:11:41 Like got to check out what's happening on the on the feed.

1:11:43 Monitor the situation.

1:11:44 Monitoring the situation, you know, like what's happening real time.

1:11:47 Then there's Wall Street Journal.

1:11:49 Like I'm I'm pretty ride or die Wall Street Journal at this point.

1:11:52 Like Been a subscriber for like You've got to pick one.

1:11:56 A man of a certain age has to pick their legacy pub and stick with [laughter]

1:12:00 No, it's not like anyone graduates from something to Wall Street Journal.

1:12:03 I'm I'm the same way.

1:12:04 The only thing I still read is the New Yorker and it pains me,

1:12:06 but I still read it, right?

1:12:07 And I you have your one and you you live with it.

1:12:10 And there's a there's a there's WWD,

1:12:12 which I think it's it's it's not necessarily niche,

1:12:15 but I feel like the press releases

1:12:20 that matter are published and reach the front page.

1:12:22 So, if I want to know what's hap- what what's happening in that world,

1:12:26 um if I if if I if I only spent another way

1:12:29 to say is if I only spent 5 minutes catching up with this world,

1:12:34 like the world of like fashion, luxury, textiles, footwear, whatever,

1:12:38 like the things that I will need to know

1:12:39 to like have a passable conversation with someone who

1:12:42 works in industry is probably going to be

1:12:45 in the front page of WWD or Business of Fashion.

1:12:48 But like WWD is more like insider trade oriented,

1:12:51 so I default to WWD and I pay for a subscription versus Business of Fashion,

1:12:55 which And that's the thing.

1:12:56 I gave up on Business of Fashion this year.

1:12:58 I used to find it valuable.

1:12:59 I feel like it it's definitely lost any level of appeal.

1:13:02 And I have two types of fashion people in my life.

1:13:05 I have women who read this heavily and want

1:13:08 to have a conversation about that and know what's happening

1:13:10 in runway and then people who just like who now

1:13:12 replaced all of it with Outlander and are like Instagram brained.

1:13:15 That is such a different way of consumption though.

1:13:18 You know what I mean?

1:13:18 It is It is It's almost like It's almost like one or the other.

1:13:21 Those are the two archetypes.

1:13:22 I get I get it.

1:13:23 Okay.

1:13:23 Yeah, that is two different archetypes.

1:13:24 Like it's more it's more industry

1:13:27 information oriented and like more vibes oriented.

1:13:29 Both count.

1:13:30 This is a great I love that you brought this up cuz I

1:13:32 just I do think if you want to know what's happening in this world,

1:13:33 to your point, 10 minutes of this and a subscription you are you

1:13:36 you know what's happening in a way that is conducive to industry conversation.

1:13:40 Like literally I pay $10 a month for WWD

1:13:43 and like most mornings I don't click in.

1:13:45 I just scroll just to make sure I know the important

1:13:48 beats that the industry as a whole is talking about.

1:13:52 Right?

1:13:53 Um All right, and then there's there's I toggle between AdAge and Adweek.

1:13:59 Right now I'm on AdAge, but it's the same thing.

1:14:02 Like got to know what the headlines are.

1:14:04 Yeah, it's just it's just it's so I feel

1:14:06 like even the writing This is My take on both of these is I I think that I I

1:14:11 just can't it's just truly the bottom it's ever been.

1:14:14 But I guess where else do you get the news, right?

1:14:16 Breaking and Entering, that's it.

1:14:17 No comment on that, but I feel like there are there are

1:14:21 there there is not a great singular destination in the same way

1:14:26 that I feel like a WWD is kind of like a good

1:14:29 destination to get like to capture all the relevant industry news, you know?

1:14:35 I feel like AdAge was that at some point and you know,

1:14:37 they have their they have their moments or they they break news every so often,

1:14:40 but you know, I think Adweek does a better

1:14:43 job at like editorial these days, but I don't know.

1:14:45 I don't know why I subscribe to AdAge versus Adweek.

1:14:47 I I usually choose one.

1:14:48 I think they gave me a discount or something like that.

1:14:50 Yeah, I look, I I'm have stronger negative opinions in general,

1:14:54 but I I've actually found the value of Breaking and Entering for me Yeah.

1:14:58 is that the clips and their feed keeps

1:15:01 me in this world of like agency award level, what's going on on TV in a way

1:15:05 that matches what I consume without having me feel like

1:15:08 our the pillars of the culture I grew up

1:15:11 with are dying like I do when I log in here.

1:15:14 No, no, like like shout out to Breaking and Entering.

1:15:16 Like I think they're doing it in a very unique way

1:15:18 and like a very and necessary way and I I I

1:15:22 feel like it like someone like an AdAge or an Adweek

1:15:24 needs to partner with a Breaking and Entering to like Yeah,

1:15:28 I just wonder like do they have the cash to really cut the check to do that?

1:15:31 Cuz I was looking at We were actually talking about this.

1:15:33 We were like looking at how many subscribers

1:15:34 were in the deck and we were tallying together mine and Alex Garcia's and one

1:15:38 of our other friends' newsletters and it was like,

1:15:39 "Oh, well, we're bigger than AdAge." Yeah, it's like[ __] you know?

1:15:43 I mean I I I don't I don't think it's

1:15:44 an existential crisis for them because they're such a strong brand,

1:15:46 but at the same time like they know that attention is splintered, right?

1:15:50 And I I think it's it's it's not a crisis.

1:15:52 pay a TVPM multiple for Breaking and Entering?

1:15:54 I'm just kidding.

1:15:56 [laughter] All right, so so let me finish my list real quick.

1:15:58 So, in this in this barbell like on the on the on the official side,

1:16:01 Apple News Plus, I pay for that, right?

1:16:04 And I feel like that's my normie news.

1:16:05 That's like I scroll through it really quickly,

1:16:07 but on the weekends I do I do dip into like

1:16:09 the Condé Nast publications cuz I want to see what ads are there.

1:16:13 I take screenshots of the ads that I appreciate because they

1:16:16 are a mirror of what shows up in in in print.

1:16:19 And you know, I still you know,

1:16:21 I I I I respect beautifully shot and published magazine ads.

1:16:28 Like I mean that Yeah, look,

1:16:30 I buy print specifically for that and buy a lot of print.

1:16:33 Yeah, yeah.

1:16:34 So, I get that from Apple News Plus, you know,

1:16:36 I I dip into LinkedIn and see what's going on there.

1:16:39 I do subscribe to like, you know,

1:16:41 a few substacks and I pay for a few at this point.

1:16:44 Um The Art Newspaper is another one as well.

1:16:47 I feel like The Art Newspaper is the equivalent of WWD in terms

1:16:50 of like understanding what the headlines are

1:16:53 in like the the commercial art world,

1:16:57 which I I have a personal interest in and just want to you know,

1:17:00 I I I'm constantly trying to learn more about.

1:17:02 Um and then YouTube and then, you know, the the the new media of the world, i.e.

1:17:07 like TVPM and whatnot.

1:17:09 And so, are you like clicking into TVPM when it's

1:17:11 on stream like in the day in the background kind of thing?

1:17:13 Sometimes if I if I if I'm not if I don't have

1:17:15 too busy of like a morning when they do their live broadcast,

1:17:17 I just have it like kind of in the background or sometimes

1:17:19 I have it like playing on a separate TV or whatever.

1:17:22 It's kind of like my CNBC at this point.

1:17:25 Um but it's it's sort of you know,

1:17:26 it it depends on like how active I am on on on business calls and whatnot.

1:17:30 But yeah, I feel like the the Art Newspaper

1:17:32 is kind of like low-key very valuable if you

1:17:34 have like even like a cursory interest in like

1:17:37 the commercial art world and um I don't know.

1:17:41 It's it's it's a good it's a good

1:17:44 destination to figure out like what's happening,

1:17:47 especially with like the politics and like the insider baseball of it all.

1:17:49 I'm I'm definitely going to make at least

1:17:51 one YouTube joke about what is a botanical curator.

1:17:55 [laughter] What is a botanical curator?

1:17:56 All right, yeah.

1:17:57 Um this is good.

1:17:58 I I haven't I've heard of this publication at all,

1:18:00 so I'm happy we had this chat so I can add it to the Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:18:05 It is interesting.

1:18:05 I I feel like I've It's interesting hearing how

1:18:07 much legacy media is in is in the diet.

1:18:10 Um whereas like I I've really cut down the consumption.

1:18:13 I still look at WWD,

1:18:15 so that's a good I think that's the only one we probably have the crosses over.

1:18:18 I pay for Air Mail even in its cursed private equity state.

1:18:23 Shout out to Roth Charles.

1:18:24 Uh and I pay for Feed Me.

1:18:29 And I wish there was a West Coast cuz cuz I don't

1:18:32 like New York's obsession with itself and its importance is bothers me.

1:18:37 Hey, center of the universe for media.

1:18:38 Like like like, you know, pay Yeah, for media.

1:18:40 And but it's center of the universe for media, it's now is the universe.

1:18:44 Like the media consumption is there.

1:18:47 And so, and I just was like, "Cool, if I can just get that same stuff,

1:18:49 but it's not about the Hamptons." Which isn't any fault to them.

1:18:51 They That's where they are.

1:18:52 But I would just like it'd be great if it was West Coast.

1:18:55 Um but that's like kind of like, "Okay,

1:18:56 I have my business and fashion chunk like purely from those and I can read

1:19:00 longer stuff in the New Yorker and get

1:19:01 in get mad about progressive politics." Uh yeah,

1:19:05 that's where we're at, you know?

1:19:07 Dude, is there really no uh like West Side or like LA specific equivalent?

1:19:13 No.

1:19:13 I mean obviously like like the weeklies are terrible.

1:19:15 All the other There's no There's no substack.

1:19:17 No one's really writing about it in that same way.

1:19:20 Like look, there's nothing like there's not like good think

1:19:22 pieces related to like lock like I think it's just

1:19:25 that doesn't I feel like I feel like I feel like

1:19:26 the written word here is just not like into the point

1:19:29 of all of my friends in New York who I

1:19:32 spend time with spend more time on the written word like

1:19:34 even in what they work on or more likely to have

1:19:36 a sub stack and all my friends here are influencers.

1:19:39 And they're not and they became influencers like video is

1:19:41 the dominant format and here's the other thing is they're all richer.

1:19:45 Like you may make decent money in New York but you're

1:19:47 still like living in that New York kind of thing and I

1:19:49 feel like even any creative people sort of end up

1:19:51 in this like back to like the K they're still like an employee

1:19:55 class where like most of the LA people have broken

1:19:57 into that I get this other tangible new media money and that kind

1:20:02 of changes the the consumption a lot but it's a lot

1:20:04 more of like there's a lot of conversations around what's on TV.

1:20:07 There's a lot of what creators are you watching?

1:20:09 It's just a very different thing.

1:20:11 Yeah, yeah, it it is interesting.

1:20:13 I I feel like I lean more to that like East Coast

1:20:15 bias that you're talking about but like you know I am exposed

1:20:19 to a lot of like the the if you want to call

1:20:21 it new media stuff or like creator based stuff and it's infinitely interesting.

1:20:26 even the ones I'm consuming I'm only consuming cuz I

1:20:27 lived in New York and married a New Yorker, right?

1:20:29 Like is is like how that kind of came over

1:20:32 and and you kind of some of that stays with you.

1:20:35 I and so I'm um Yes,

1:20:39 it's a related question like I hear this talk there's a I was

1:20:43 in a pretty heated argument about this the other

1:20:45 day about someone was they had quoted

1:20:46 a sub stack to me that was saying that the elite customer is moving offline

1:20:51 that they like are going to use the brick phone or that they're not like

1:20:54 on Instagram reels or like they don't

1:20:56 they wouldn't consume via like ad placement

1:20:59 on there or they're not influenced by social and I was like I don't know every

1:21:02 rich person I know is on reels as much as anyone else and I was

1:21:05 just curious but it that seems to be like a almost pervasive like elder CD take.

1:21:10 I'm curious what your thoughts are.

1:21:12 I I don't know that sounds like virtue signaling to me, right?

1:21:16 Like I feel I completely agree but I was just like man am I out

1:21:18 of touch and I figured you were a good person to ask.

1:21:20 I I mean I I haven't you know I haven't investigated the numbers

1:21:24 or the metrics or whatever but I look I love an anecdotal

1:21:28 take so like this is the I'm you know I think we

1:21:30 just live in an algorithmic age where it's just it's so addictive.

1:21:35 Like I don't think regard it's like Campbell soup, right?

1:21:39 Like this is like very you know it's like everyone

1:21:41 has a different flavor of consumption but we all go

1:21:43 to the same place at the end of the night

1:21:45 to get our fix before we go to sleep, right?

1:21:47 Like you open up Instagram you you know you

1:21:49 let your algorithm like play to your deepest or greatest

1:21:52 fears or whatever but like it's not like very

1:21:55 wealthy people go somewhere else to get their fix.

1:21:58 It's the same thing.

1:22:00 It's a very Warholian like kind of thing, right?

1:22:02 even darker, yeah.

1:22:03 Yeah, [laughter] or or yeah or maybe they do and it's just like

1:22:06 But but this is funny cuz they were talking about like

1:22:08 there's the other the other I'm working on a video about this.

1:22:10 I like workshop bits it's like a part of like my writing process but one

1:22:13 of the bits was about um how people are like oh I don't buy from ads.

1:22:16 I don't I would never I've never clicked an Instagram ad.

1:22:19 That's virtue signaling and denial.

1:22:21 Like come on bro.

1:22:22 Okay, okay.

1:22:23 Like okay, let me let let me let me throw it back to you know

1:22:27 when I I was working in um in fine I was working venture capital, right?

1:22:31 And like one of my one of my jobs was to help founders figure out

1:22:36 brand strategy and figure out like their go

1:22:39 to market like you know marketing stuff, right?

1:22:41 And you know when you're when you're in that world

1:22:43 you you work with a lot of founders that are very you know the they're they're

1:22:46 they're they're quantitative and they don't believe in brand.

1:22:49 So I I you know I was I was spoken to a few times

1:22:52 by founder type saying something along the lines of like I don't need you.

1:22:57 Like all I need is a really strong product and some like customers

1:23:01 that will tell other you know I don't believe brand can be a moat.

1:23:05 Like I don't like why waste time on that?

1:23:08 Like you know a brand is what it's a logo and a tagline, right?

1:23:11 Um Where was I going with this?

1:23:15 Where was I going with this?

1:23:16 I was going somewhere with this.

1:23:17 It doesn't matter.

1:23:18 Keep Yeah, just No, but like[ __] Like I did have I did

1:23:22 have a train of thought that I was going to make a finer

1:23:24 point on but like um You know I'd have a conversation with some

1:23:29 of these founders saying like okay okay I see what watch you're wearing.

1:23:33 What kind of car do you drive?

1:23:35 You know like what is the latest purchase that you made that you

1:23:40 had to kind of like evaluate because it cost a certain amount or it

1:23:43 was like actually it was a decision um that would like you know

1:23:48 um like command a certain amount of like your spending power or whatever.

1:23:54 And you know even if they would deny that it would be like uh um

1:23:58 like like an effective marketing like you you kind of have to like have you

1:24:05 know you would have to debate with them to like have them admit that like

1:24:08 it was exposure to marketing messaging

1:24:10 or And that's all that's all by design, right?

1:24:13 It's like it's like that um it's like that it's like that uh

1:24:17 that that scene in Devil Wears Prada where it's like oh like I bought

1:24:19 this blue I bought this blue sweater under my own volition and it's like

1:24:23 actually there's like a multi-billion dollar industry

1:24:25 that convinced you to buy that, right?

1:24:27 It's the same thing if you decide to buy a Porsche, right?

1:24:29 It's like you didn't singularly decide to make that purchase.

1:24:33 It was your exposure to like all sorts of things, right?

1:24:35 And that's a lot of that is by design but a lot

1:24:38 of people fight against that because they think they're above it.

1:24:42 And if that has to do with like status

1:24:44 or earning power or like station in life absolutely ridiculous.

1:24:48 You're sort of like living a lie at that point.

1:24:50 You're in denial.

1:24:51 Well, the the argument the reason I love

1:24:53 I love that anecdote or when people will

1:24:54 bring up the argument is I used to I used to work for a company I

1:24:57 would I managed the paid and the social

1:24:58 and a bunch of other marketing and content for this company Lift Foils so it's

1:25:01 a surf company but they sell those hydrofoil surfboards.

1:25:04 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:25:05 And they're like 10 grand.

1:25:07 14 grand.

1:25:09 Really?

1:25:11 And uh yeah and like but our customer list was like a who's who.

1:25:15 Zuckerberg you know Yeah, this is the famous photo with like too much

1:25:19 sun block on his face kind of photo op.

1:25:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:25:23 Yeah, like you know and then like again the curing board members you know NFL

1:25:28 quarterbacks like the rich in the world and it was and you I be in Shopify.

1:25:32 Sell on Shopify and you can see your like first session

1:25:35 from search came back from da da da and you'd be

1:25:37 like look these are the the wealthiest people in the world

1:25:40 making $14,000 AMEX purchases on Shopify from an Instagram ad, right?

1:25:47 And and we're as you just like yeah hey

1:25:49 like this is this is completely even expensive purchases.

1:25:52 So whether it's lipstick all the way to again 15 grand I was always like I'd be

1:25:57 like hey I can like I don't know if you guys know this but we have the data.

1:26:00 Like I can actually click into a customer record and be

1:26:02 like oh and then now with like outer signal and[ __] it's

1:26:05 like oh I can go to all my high network customers

1:26:06 and be like is this a direct you know like Yeah, yeah.

1:26:10 So so what do you think it is?

1:26:11 Do you think it's like Like I think it's a bit

1:26:13 of denial or like you know holier than thou but like Yeah,

1:26:16 I think it's the last it's the last stand against performance marketing

1:26:19 and I don't know from from your perspective what you deal with every

1:26:21 day but I do think it's like hey performance marketing has come

1:26:24 for everyone and the idea of what a creative director is now means you

1:26:28 have to engage with it and or have to engage either virality

1:26:31 or performance or both and it's like okay maybe there's a hint of oh

1:26:35 there's this this rebellion to the algorithmic world gives us hope we could

1:26:39 continue this the the grift we've been on for for a long time.

1:26:43 It's not a grift that's a that's too much of a too strong of a word

1:26:46 but yeah I think in this kind of like

1:26:47 that that last bastion and really people don't

1:26:49 want to they don't want to I think they are they feel it's beneath them to make

1:26:52 meta ad units when in reality the money

1:26:55 printer is the great equalizer of our time.

1:26:59 I would tend to agree with that.

1:27:01 I mean I'm also you know I'm also not like ultra high net worth so like I like

1:27:05 my you know my consumption patterns I can't project

1:27:08 on other people but like I would have to think

1:27:09 that you know it is you know it it

1:27:11 is very Warholian like everyone uses same phone everyone

1:27:14 has the same you know access to like Instagram

1:27:17 and that affects you at the end of the day.

1:27:21 I will say that I I've also worked with some like

1:27:23 very wealthy people who do seem to live in a different

1:27:26 world and maybe don't spend as much time on their phones

1:27:28 as the average person and and does take more like personal recommendations

1:27:33 the iPad.

1:27:33 One of them one of my favorite wealthy people I know just has I don't know I

1:27:37 don't know if I see him on the phone he's got an iPad like at all times.

1:27:40 Yeah.

1:27:41 be like I've seen him like take a call, you know?

1:27:42 Yeah, [laughter] I I might I might I might reverse my opinion

1:27:46 POV like based on like like now recalling like encounters with like

1:27:49 very wealthy people like you know working with people who have

1:27:53 their emails printed out for them versus like actually like access email.

1:27:56 It's like what like what?

1:27:58 Damn.

1:27:59 __] saying.

1:27:59 Yeah, I used to have this is I was like The last time I

1:28:02 had an EA which is a different era I had like an old school EA.

1:28:05 It was me I was ahead of marketing and I

1:28:06 my and a friend of mine was ahead of sales

1:28:07 we shared an EA and she was just old school

1:28:10 and was like we had like would bring us tea.

1:28:12 I would get a printed pack out of like stuff

1:28:15 to know and like emails and like honestly that[ __] was amazing.

1:28:18 I was like this is what like rolling through it.

1:28:19 Yeah, it's all good, you know?

1:28:21 There there's you know there's there's some value in that.

1:28:23 Like Well, EA culture's died but anyway.

1:28:26 Well, EA culture well yes and no.

1:28:31 I mean there's Yeah, there are levels to that, too.

1:28:35 All right, I [snorts]

1:28:36 I want to do the last thing I want to hit here is I know we've been on here

1:28:38 for a minute is there were a bunch of questions

1:28:40 on Instagram and I want to make sure I uh Let's go.

1:28:43 I give the people um Hey oh yeah so this is a good one this is

1:28:49 one I really like from both of us um Do you ever feel tired of this world?

1:28:53 Just cuz the fact that like we are obviously aware of all

1:28:57 of the tricks of consumption and all that and are then living it.

1:29:02 Bro, I am just I'm tired all the time.

1:29:05 What are you talking about?

1:29:06 Look at look at me.

1:29:07 Look at this[ __] Like um Like I like do

1:29:11 you mean tired like just cuz the onslaught of information?

1:29:14 Yeah, I think it's the question like from people who are I think

1:29:16 there's a lot of people in the comments and replies who are like,

1:29:19 "Hey, you guys talk about all this stuff or we understand where this goes

1:29:22 like isn't it just like how do you how do you even exist?

1:29:25 Like how do you work in this industry like

1:29:27 knowing how knowing it's like basically consumer manipulation, right?

1:29:31 Which is like is what it is, yeah.

1:29:34 I mean, it's the world that we live in.

1:29:37 I I don't know how to react to that other than like If you

1:29:40 were giving advice to a young person to tell them to hold on, you know?

1:29:44 I mean, if I have to convince someone that they have to hold

1:29:46 on, if there's no like like genuine love for the game, right?

1:29:51 Like I I feel like I don't want to say go do something else,

1:29:55 but like I I I'm I'm just curious.

1:29:59 I I think working in, you know,

1:30:03 in this field and I'm taking everything along the spectrum from like, you know,

1:30:08 uh the the the the quadrant of like, you know, big agency like,

1:30:12 you know, Fortune 100 brands all the way to like like big money creators, right?

1:30:18 Like you have to love what you do, right?

1:30:21 And it's the only industry maybe that allows you to skip between that thin

1:30:27 line between like commercial reality and creativity in like a very real way.

1:30:31 Like you can have an artistic disposition and still make a good

1:30:33 amount of money doing the marketing thing because you understand both sides.

1:30:38 You can't really do that in a lot of other industries, right?

1:30:42 So, I I feel like if you if you find a place along that spectrum where

1:30:46 you can like go all in and like kind of especially if you're like in your 20s

1:30:50 and early 30s like kind of like like overclock yourself and just like just go

1:30:56 for it and see how far you can get and like network your ass off and like,

1:30:59 you know, do do the most.

1:31:01 Um you'll put yourself on a good trajectory,

1:31:03 but like I don't know how else to say

1:31:05 it other than like you have to like love it.

1:31:08 You know what I mean?

1:31:08 Like I love advertising.

1:31:10 Like from like a historical perspective,

1:31:13 from like an objective like artistic perspective,

1:31:17 I have great pride in the work that like I have hands-on keyboard on and then

1:31:21 I see it in the real world whether it be like a TV spot,

1:31:23 billboard, like sponsorship for something big like

1:31:26 the World Cup or like I'm like, "Yo, I did that." You know?

1:31:30 Like whatever my contribution was like I'm I'm I'm proud of that.

1:31:33 It's tangible and other people are appreciating it and are experiencing it.

1:31:37 Like if you don't get the a thrill from that in the same

1:31:40 way that Orin you might get a thrill from like when

1:31:42 you publish and you see like you see the impressions rack up

1:31:45 and then you see the comments come in and people appreciate it.

1:31:48 They learn something.

1:31:49 They share it.

1:31:50 They're like it's putting them on a path.

1:31:52 It's like if you don't get like that intrinsic

1:31:55 motivation from that, like why are you doing it?

1:31:59 Right?

1:32:00 think there's there's a new generation of people who I also think

1:32:03 that we are maybe from a generation where creative work wasn't guaranteed.

1:32:07 It was like kind of hard to even have

1:32:09 any semblance of you could work in creative and Okay.

1:32:13 there just were less jobs I feel like that now

1:32:14 it's like there's so much with social media and I think it's making it easier.

1:32:18 I don't know if it's easier,

1:32:19 but do you feel like there's a there's like a almost a uh okay,

1:32:23 how could we choose to do this like that same thrill isn't there?

1:32:27 I think it's a feels like it's almost more of a choice when it's like,

1:32:29 "Hey, this is actually like kind of an honor, you know?" Mhm, okay.

1:32:32 Yeah, that is interesting.

1:32:33 I mean, I don't That's tough.

1:32:36 take out, yeah.

1:32:37 Yeah, yeah.

1:32:38 I Oh, no, I I get that.

1:32:40 I don't Yeah, I I think it's different on the creator end.

1:32:44 I mean, it's different on it's different everywhere actually,

1:32:46 but um and you know, I've been I've been in this game for like 20 years now,

1:32:49 so it's I have a very different perspective.

1:32:52 Like there was a there was a there was a there was a long

1:32:54 grinded out period that I feel like is a rite of passage, right?

1:32:59 And um I don't know.

1:33:02 I don't know if that's a fair answer.

1:33:04 Yeah, couple related questions um Yeah, the uh So,

1:33:10 there there was three or four questions all

1:33:12 along the same theme about like taking care

1:33:15 of yourself or like choosing yourself versus work

1:33:18 and like how do you know when to do what?

1:33:21 Um which is always hard ones for me to answer cuz I'm

1:33:24 always like until I decided not to be working and be doing creator,

1:33:28 I was just like, "Cool,

1:33:28 I I'm I'm kind of all in on whatever it is whether that's good for me

1:33:32 or not." And I'm curious how how you

1:33:34 balance that or recommend younger people balance it.

1:33:36 Um I I don't know.

1:33:37 It I think it depends on what the definition

1:33:39 of balance is or what the expectation of balance is.

1:33:43 I'm going to sound like, you know, maybe a bit old school in saying this, but um

1:33:48 in most industries to be truly differentiated and I don't know,

1:33:55 successful to a certain perspective or to a certain point,

1:33:59 um you have to again you have to over-index.

1:34:01 Whatever the equivalent of being first in last out

1:34:06 and and and I don't know if that's even a familiar term now,

1:34:08 but like you know, in office culture, you know,

1:34:11 there was an attitude that if you were first in in the morning

1:34:16 like ready for the day and you were the last person to leave,

1:34:20 um that meant something.

1:34:21 And not from a, you know,

1:34:23 a virtue signaling or or projection perspective trying to impress anyone,

1:34:27 it just meant that you cared more than everyone else.

1:34:29 Whatever the equivalent to that is now is the attitude that's

1:34:33 necessary to actually like differentiate

1:34:34 yourself from like everyone else, right?

1:34:36 Like uh I saw a debate online the other day about um you know,

1:34:39 the value of, you know,

1:34:40 how to how to how to achieve uh a certain salary doing a 9-to-5 job.

1:34:47 And I'm like to get if you want to make

1:34:50 half a mill a year regardless of what you do, it's not a 9-to-5, bro.

1:34:54 Like show me someone who works a 9-to-5 and makes north of 350 a year.

1:35:00 That person's not, you know, you're working 24/7.

1:35:02 Like your life is your work and that's this goes back to my my earlier

1:35:05 point about like you have to have love for the game because it can consume you,

1:35:10 but you have to be okay with it.

1:35:11 And like will there be moments where you're burnt out?

1:35:13 Will there be moments where you don't have enough sleep?

1:35:15 Will there be moments where you have to sacrifice?

1:35:17 Sure, but that's every that's

1:35:20 every industry like conventional and unconventional.

1:35:22 Yeah, that's any job over 120k.

1:35:25 You're probably in that in my pocket.

1:35:29 Yeah.

1:35:29 Um and I think there's just I also

1:35:30 do look it's harder to see when you're remote,

1:35:33 it's harder to see the people working like that, right?

1:35:35 Um I remember I was when I first like

1:35:38 went out of the creative workforce into the oh,

1:35:40 I have like a marketing job and I was more junior

1:35:43 and I was trying to impress people because I was late.

1:35:45 I had had a you know, I was those don't know I was like in a touring band

1:35:48 for a few years after school and that kind of ended badly.

1:35:51 Um and it kind of stopped abruptly.

1:35:54 Um just someone passed away.

1:35:55 It was like a whole thing.

1:35:56 And so then I kind of rejoined the workforce later.

1:35:58 I worked as a graphic designer and then I was

1:36:00 realizing I'm like I was like 29 being like, "Okay,

1:36:03 I'm coming in in a more junior marketing position and like all

1:36:05 I want to do is just catch up." And I was like,

1:36:07 "What does it take to do that?" And then I started trying to do the oh,

1:36:09 I'm going to be first in last out,

1:36:10 but then I started to realize how it was a tech company.

1:36:12 I was like the engineers are are here hours I can't even define like like

1:36:19 and then you're and then but then when you are and then you're like, "Oh,

1:36:21 now I have relationships with them." We got a Popular Science cover

1:36:24 at that job because I would be spending time in the morning

1:36:27 with the head of engineering who was describing things to me

1:36:29 I used on a PR pitch that were exciting to somebody.

1:36:31 And it's like but I don't know how you again how

1:36:33 you have that same thing in the in the remote era.

1:36:35 Yeah, and that's a huge that's that's a huge thing to figure out.

1:36:38 It's a I think it's problematic,

1:36:40 but then again like from my perspective like I've I've had

1:36:42 a certain set of experiences as as as you have and I empathize

1:36:46 with like young people that haven't had the benefit and it might

1:36:49 sound funny to say that it's a benefit of uh you know,

1:36:52 an IRL kind of work experience cuz you learn a lot, you know,

1:36:54 like the the body language and the cadence of like, you know,

1:36:57 communication and like the water cooler talk and being

1:37:00 able to like knock on the, you know,

1:37:02 the office door of someone super senior and be like, "Yo, can I have 10 minutes?

1:37:06 I have I have a question for you." It doesn't hit

1:37:09 the same if you email someone out of, you know, cold, you know?

1:37:13 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah or or like a random,

1:37:16 you know, slack in the middle of the night.

1:37:17 It's not going to hit the same.

1:37:18 So, but you know,

1:37:20 Yeah, a fu- funny question that someone just sent was are you vibe coding?

1:37:24 Am I vibe coding?

1:37:25 Okay.

1:37:26 Um I'm going to be honest, I feel like okay,

1:37:29 I have a very um corporate advertising job

1:37:33 right now that does not afford me the time

1:37:35 that I think I need to like catch up with all things AI and vibe coding.

1:37:39 I mean, I'm like I don't I don't know what to judge myself against,

1:37:42 but I I'm kind of a mid vibe coder if you know,

1:37:45 I've built little things here and there, but just to experiment,

1:37:48 but it's not like I've it's not like I have like anything

1:37:50 functional that I'm proud of that I want to like, you know, share.

1:37:53 So, like right now like what I'm trying to do is like I

1:37:56 uh I'm like a very um amateur like art collector and I want

1:38:01 to create basically a like a destination like a website like a catalog

1:38:05 basically with everything from like I I want to I want to record provenance.

1:38:08 Like I want to, you know, display things in a beautiful way.

1:38:11 Like I'm just going to like vibe code that because there isn't an adequate

1:38:14 platform that is like free or close to free that can give me that.

1:38:17 You know what I mean?

1:38:18 So, so like yes and no is the answer to that.

1:38:21 Long-winded.

1:38:22 That makes sense.

1:38:24 Uh And I'll hop in for the people that asking

1:38:26 on that um we we have a whole suite of tools.

1:38:29 It's more Colon doing it than me, but um like Art Cut 30 toolkit is like robust

1:38:34 and all made in there and he's doing a[ __] banger job.

1:38:37 Um but I'm relying on my talented friend to do it more than doing it myself,

1:38:40 but I did make myself a a health dashboard with my Apple kit,

1:38:44 my function health blood work and all this other stuff in my Perplexity

1:38:48 computer which I did because I'm working on a Perplexity thing,

1:38:51 but like it's actually very[ __] sick.

1:38:53 And it's like, "Here's my and it has all like the Brian Johnson." I'm

1:38:56 I'm trying to see if I can bring this up without actually sharing all

1:39:01 of my um Wha- wha- wha- would you be the of the opinion that like

1:39:06 if you want to call it vibe coding is is sort of like necessary,

1:39:10 you know, as a launching pad for you know, what you do for example like No,

1:39:16 I I think I I I don't um I think it's interesting to find out like okay,

1:39:21 so here's the perplexity health dashboard, right?

1:39:23 Where like cool sleep scores, resting heart rate, here's my cortisol.

1:39:29 Only thing that's not optimal, you know,

1:39:32 um like all like like the workout stuff's in there, longevity markers.

1:39:36 Um and we're like tweaking it but like that's interesting to me.

1:39:38 Um yeah, I don't think I don't think it's necessary,

1:39:40 but I do think that um if you are the person

1:39:44 who can create the marketing command center who is like,

1:39:47 oh yeah, I know how to use whatever is Windsor or Windsor

1:39:49 whatever the thing is that connects like the meta and stuff in.

1:39:52 I I can build a live dashboard.

1:39:54 I can report these metrics this way.

1:39:55 You are like extremely valuable.

1:39:58 Yeah, that reminds me of like when I was, you know,

1:40:00 in my early 20s and like, you know, internet marketing was new.

1:40:03 Like there were there'd be so much of an opportunity

1:40:05 for arbitrage because I understood things that like people 10,

1:40:10 20 years my senior just it wasn't native to them.

1:40:13 So I could run circles about around them, but like to make it functional to like

1:40:16 the day-to-day work is what like gave me a boost.

1:40:19 So there has to be an equivalent to that now

1:40:21 and and and if it is vibe coding or if it's content creation,

1:40:24 like, you know, these are things that like people might

1:40:26 I would dare say it's more useful just in that like man,

1:40:29 I'm in these conversations and this is actually tied

1:40:31 to the I think probably last question we'll we'll do here,

1:40:33 but then we'll hit the hit next,

1:40:35 but I'm in these like I I work with Darkroom you know,

1:40:38 on the agency side and a few of the other where like and look,

1:40:41 the repeatable thing that everyone hears from both the work I was doing

1:40:43 at Private Equity prior to this year is that there's just not enough content.

1:40:46 We need more UGC creators.

1:40:48 We need more Tik Tok shop creators.

1:40:49 We need more stuff in the ad account.

1:40:50 We need more individual accounts.

1:40:52 We need more EGC.

1:40:53 The consuming beast of content is never ending and if you

1:40:56 can contribute to that it's like immediate path to more money,

1:40:59 immediate path to being in more relevant meetings.

1:41:02 Like immediate like and and you even see this like like we

1:41:04 were selling into Ulta at the last place I worked a lot, right?

1:41:07 Ulta has a whole program for their employees.

1:41:08 And then when they're pitching us as a brand to do co-marketing,

1:41:11 here's our employees.

1:41:12 You can just hire.

1:41:13 And like they're solving that problem.

1:41:15 I was like, man, this is really like in in depth and yeah.

1:41:18 You you really think that there's like an infinite supply opportunity?

1:41:23 Cuz like I don't know what to think cuz I'm not in this world,

1:41:26 but like part of me feels like there's so much

1:41:28 content and another another part of me feels like no,

1:41:30 the door is still open for Yeah, I think people underestimate.

1:41:34 So here's what happens, right?

1:41:34 So Tik Tok shop and Tik Tok shop and UGC for consumer goods, let's start there.

1:41:38 So All the good Tik Tok shop creators are making bank.

1:41:42 But what that means that all the new brands that are still getting

1:41:45 in cuz there's new brands getting in every day at the highest caliber, right?

1:41:48 Are like, okay, we can't afford those creators cuz they're already locked in.

1:41:51 They already know I'm going to make my six figures a month,

1:41:53 which is crazy, but it's true doing the stuff I already have.

1:41:57 And then even the second tier is like they're already good.

1:41:59 They have their brands, they have relationships,

1:42:00 they're getting 40% commissions, they're getting retainers.

1:42:03 They're locked in.

1:42:04 They don't want to add a bunch of new[ __] And all these brands are still

1:42:07 adding on it and then there's just like there's a dearth of like I am willing

1:42:10 to do the work to do that and being able to connect it is like even all

1:42:13 the best curated programs like people like Creators

1:42:15 Corner have have hooked up all these amazing brands.

1:42:18 They still need if if you gave Creators Corner 5,000 more trained people,

1:42:22 they would they would fill them out into it.

1:42:24 And we found this the same thing with UGC

1:42:25 of just like you just need more styles,

1:42:27 need more ad tests, need more whatever and the people

1:42:29 that can turn it consistently and like have it be good.

1:42:32 Um I think it's just like still getting started.

1:42:34 Look, the ad account's a perfect example where like okay,

1:42:36 if I want to spend $300, $400 on an asset,

1:42:39 what is the demand level for assets of that based on scaling if

1:42:42 I'm if I'm spending six to seven figures a month in the ad account?

1:42:46 The answer is almost infinity.

1:42:47 Right.

1:42:48 Right.

1:42:49 Compared to supply.

1:42:50 Cuz I, you know, you know, from where I sit,

1:42:52 I I I can't tell or gauge if we're early Yeah.

1:42:57 or if it's like, you know,

1:42:58 or or or if anyone that that's thinking of getting in is

1:43:01 like a fast follower or if it's like pretty mature at this point

1:43:03 and there are already winners and it's just going to be more

1:43:07 of like a hustle to get to to to kind of like Well, that was it.

1:43:09 This is this is the last question that we had was like,

1:43:11 what are the big brands thinking about,

1:43:13 worried about, what's the marketing focus at that level?

1:43:17 I'm curious what your what your thoughts are on there.

1:43:22 Um I mean there there are several ways to answer that question, I feel like.

1:43:28 You know, the the the the bigger the the company

1:43:30 or the brand like maybe this is a way

1:43:33 of articulating it like I feel like smaller brands

1:43:35 are like speedboats and you need to change direction,

1:43:38 you need to like slow down, speed up.

1:43:40 You can do that on command like pretty quickly.

1:43:43 Um you know, if you're a Fortune 100 brand

1:43:46 there's like a a plethora different like pressures on you.

1:43:51 You have more stakeholders, investors to like care of it.

1:43:53 It's like a big aircraft carrier, right?

1:43:55 Where you can only like you can only like move it you know,

1:43:59 so many, you know, like so quickly.

1:44:00 You can't turn it around like very quickly, right?

1:44:03 But like think about it as like a like when

1:44:08 I was working more in the startup world like I would

1:44:10 realize that, you know it is a speedboat and you

1:44:13 can change direction very quickly and you could like affect change [snorts]

1:44:18 in like a short amount of time.

1:44:20 Whereas now it's sort of like think about um I don't know,

1:44:25 like a large cruise ship or something, right?

1:44:27 Like if you move the rudder like 3°.

1:44:32 In the short term it might not feel like you're going in a different direction.

1:44:36 But like longitudinally like over a period

1:44:39 of time you're going in a completely different direction.

1:44:42 Right?

1:44:42 And that's the game.

1:44:44 That's the game when you're dealing

1:44:45 with like bigger brands versus like smaller brands.

1:44:47 Like smaller brands you have the agency to like dramatically

1:44:49 change things if you're if if if things are going sideways.

1:44:53 For larger brands and that's where the strategy comes in.

1:44:56 Like you have to try to point the ship

1:44:58 in a different direction knowing that you can

1:45:00 only move that rudder like maybe if you're like

1:45:02 a if you're really good at transformation like 10%.

1:45:06 So it might not feel like you're going in a different direction,

1:45:08 but like over time that company is going

1:45:11 in like a much different trajectory if that makes sense.

1:45:15 This is probably a like a a bad analogy.

1:45:17 I I absolutely and I think and that's the kind

1:45:19 of thing people if I was answering that same question it's like

1:45:22 people are trying to find agencies that can serve these little

1:45:25 things that they're trying to do with the experience at scale.

1:45:28 And that's really hard challenge cuz they don't It does feel like two worlds,

1:45:33 but like, you know, there there are you know,

1:45:35 there there are always people within large organizations

1:45:38 that are looking for nimble operators at small agencies

1:45:41 or like solo operators that can just like force

1:45:43 them to think differently in the same way that like,

1:45:47 you know, founders and much smaller businesses or like SMB, D2C,

1:45:51 whatever you want to call them are looking for best practices from like,

1:45:54 you know, the biggest companies in the world.

1:45:55 So You know, the the thing that like kind

1:45:58 of frustrates me a lot like on especially on social media

1:46:01 on LinkedIn or or or Twitter or whatever else is

1:46:03 that like like marketing is a catch-all for like this entire spectrum.

1:46:08 Right?

1:46:09 It's sort of unfair because when you're talking about like, you know,

1:46:11 billions of dollars in revenue versus like

1:46:14 somebody who's trying to find their first customers,

1:46:16 like sure, the opinions from both sides count,

1:46:18 but like we should call them something else like entirely.

1:46:22 So whenever I see like the crossover

1:46:24 and like interaction between between the two, I'm like, ooh, like Yeah, exactly.

1:46:28 The the terminology is not doing it

1:46:30 justice and you get that whole like advertising,

1:46:31 marketing, branding and it's just like and then it's just like such a wild spot.

1:46:34 Yeah.

1:46:35 Yeah.

1:46:35 It's like describing energy.

1:46:36 You're like, well Uh yeah.

1:46:39 We talk about that.

1:46:42 [laughter] Um all right, cool.

1:46:42 I think I think we're I think we're coming to an end here.

1:46:46 All right, if you watched all this way through,

1:46:47 just a quick note, I have the next community call thing we're doing.

1:46:51 If you have a bunch of questions on these or have

1:46:52 tactical stuff or want to workshop your thing.

1:46:54 I know I had a bunch of questions on that I ignored.

1:46:57 Um or if you want to workshop the brand, your content strategy or anything,

1:47:00 that next call, I'll put the link to that in this YouTube.

1:47:02 I'm going to keep this YouTube up.

1:47:03 I know we've been privating the lives,

1:47:05 but uh we'll keep this one so you can rewatch.

1:47:08 I will be on on my channel and you all will be able to see this on our X's.

1:47:11 Um yeah, that next community call link is

1:47:12 in the YouTube and that's on next Sunday.

1:47:16 Um but yeah, Michael, thanks for thanks for joining.

1:47:18 You can follow him on X at Michael Miraflores.

1:47:21 Yeah, this is fun.

1:47:22 This is cool.

1:47:23 Yeah.