Kehlani: Self-Titled Album, “Folded” & Usher Collab | Zane Lowe Interview
Apple Music
0:00 Kani, it's so wonderful to see you.
0:01 Thank you for coming by Apple Music Radio.
0:03 Happy 10th anniversary to us.
0:05 We met in 2016.
0:06 Ah, look at us.
0:07 I had a photo.
0:08 Should we have had like a little cupcake?
0:10 Now I feel bad for not providing you.
0:13 It's okay.
0:14 How's your spirit?
0:15 I'm so good.
0:16 I'm so happy.
0:16 It's my birthday.
0:18 My album is out.
0:19 Thank you.
0:20 I'm happy to see you.
0:22 I always knew we're going to have a good conversation and you actually
0:24 care about what you know what I've done and what we're doing and yeah,
0:27 I'm happy to be here.
0:28 Very much so.
0:29 you know, and uh like all of your fans,
0:32 we've seen and heard the growth throughout life,
0:34 but I feel like you have um been focusing on the fine
0:38 print more and more in recent times that the big
0:40 macro problems have faded somewhat into the distance and allowed you
0:43 to zero in on the detail of what makes a great life.
0:46 Is that fair to say?
0:47 Yeah.
0:47 I feel like I spent so long trying
0:50 to just like keep everything going and kind of running
0:53 around like a chicken with my head cut off
0:54 trying to find my little moments of peace and sanity and for myself.
0:59 And I finally am at this place where like balance is
1:03 balance.
1:02 I have balance.
1:03 I finally have balance and I'm like not fighting to keep it.
1:06 I'm just like fully integrated and it's really really nice.
1:10 You hear it in the music.
1:12 It feels like you allowed yourself to receive the songs.
1:18 I love that.
1:18 Yeah, that's exactly where I'm at.
1:20 Across the board, I'm in a a receiving place.
1:23 So, yes.
1:24 So, how do you know when there's a song coming?
1:28 Like when it's time to make it or
1:30 when it when you're receiving it,
1:31 when the words start to flow and everything starts to happen.
1:33 I mean, it's so hard to put into words,
1:35 but I'm never going to stop asking that question.
1:37 How do you know?
1:37 How does it feel when you realize that something is channeling?
1:40 Oh, man.
1:41 I think it's like it's when it's happening before the words.
1:44 I know when like I'm in the studio with the producer and the beat
1:48 is starting to form and I'm like hearing the instruments I want and I'm like,
1:52 "Yo, like we should nudge it in this direction
1:54 and we should get it here because I'm very musically led,
1:57 not like lyrically led initially." So,
1:59 it's when I'm in there and like we're starting to catch like a thing,
2:02 me and the producer, and then like I'm already like,
2:04 you know, playing around and getting melodic.
2:07 But usually when that first that first little freestyle of a line
2:11 comes that kind of cementss what the song is going to be about.
2:14 That's when I feel like I jump into the portal.
2:15 I'm like
2:16 oh okay.
2:17 Like when I made Folded I just kept saying come pick up your clothes.
2:21 Come pick up your clothes.
2:22 And then it was like okay now we're going into whatever this world is.
2:25 But that it started with that just so I couldn't get that out of my head.
2:28 So did you know that song was going to change your life?
2:30 Did you feel it?
2:31 No.
2:31 I had no idea.
2:33 The only one who didn't.
2:34 the only one who didn't know,
2:37 you know, I like put the teaser out and like I just teased the intro
2:41 and then I teased the little I'll let
2:43 your body decide part and everybody was like cute.
2:44 We're getting a little summer sex song and then
2:47 it dropped and they were like this is emotional.
2:49 We wanted a sex song.
2:50 We don't want this.
2:51 And then like I kind of watch people be
2:53 like wait a minute I can't stop listening to this.
2:54 Like what's happening?
2:55 I like this.
2:57 It's so sticky.
2:58 I'm I'm I'm very grateful for that song.
2:59 I owe I right now to that song.
3:03 Everything.
3:03 Wow.
3:04 But your whole life led to that song.
3:05 Yeah.
3:05 Oh, amen.
3:07 Oh, that's true.
3:08 That's true.
3:08 The song just reflected the human and the spirit and what you were ready to say.
3:12 And you know what?
3:13 I receive that.
3:15 Thank you so much.
3:16 Yeah.
3:16 Yeah.
3:16 Yeah.
3:16 There's no luck involved here.
3:18 That song is a byproduct of a lot of miles under foot experiences.
3:22 Yeah.
3:22 For you to find that kind of space in there.
3:25 Um, let's just stay with Folded for a second.
3:26 We never spoke about it and we're going
3:27 to go through this album because it is soing good.
3:29 The song The Brandy that Jam and Lewis did.
3:32 Oh my god.
3:32 I didn't even know they worked on it and I
3:33 heard I was like Jenna Lewis in the house.
3:36 Yeah.
3:36 And they've never done a song with her before.
3:37 That's their first time.
3:38 So I got to be some type of freaky legendary glue.
3:43 Mind-blowing.
3:43 Yeah.
3:43 I'm like I really I was saying the other day
3:45 cuz I was shooting the video with Missy and like Monica
3:48 pulled up and Tyrese was there and I'm sitting there
3:51 and I'm going I feel like the kid at the grown-up table.
3:55 Yeah.
3:55 Yeah.
3:55 That's that's Mount Rushmore.
3:56 Yeah.
3:57 I'm like sitting there like wow I can't believe I'm in this room with y'all.
3:59 I feel like I'm intruding almost.
4:01 No.
4:01 You're welcome.
4:02 And and here's a cool thing about that.
4:03 That's what they said to me.
4:04 Yeah.
4:04 Yeah.
4:04 Yeah.
4:04 Because Janelle Monet said to me one thing.
4:06 I love to share this whenever this comes up.
4:08 This idea of how does the gravity work?
4:10 How does the intangible become tangible amongst peers to fans to friends?
4:14 And it really comes from the fact that they hear and see themselves
4:17 even somewhat spiritually or subconsciously in you
4:19 because you are formed out of them.
4:22 Yeah.
4:22 I'm just a a byproduct of them.
4:24 Yeah.
4:24 Yeah.
4:24 But not in a in a in a xerox way, in a in a chemical way.
4:28 You carried them with you because they moved you and changed your life.
4:30 M absolutely.
4:31 And then they're like, we kind of know this person.
4:33 Yeah.
4:33 They recognize us.
4:34 Yeah, for sure.
4:35 So there's the there's the there's the connection.
4:38 Uh getting getting back to Folded.
4:40 Um you know, it started to happen.
4:41 It started to move.
4:42 It started to become a thing.
4:44 Um what did you see people really recognizing in the song
4:48 that that was connecting as you were performing it,
4:50 as you were getting reactions?
4:51 And we talked about the emotion,
4:52 but how what do you where do you think the connection is there?
4:55 I mean, I think it is a super nuanced take in a song.
4:59 Like I think they're still having conversations about what the song means.
5:03 They're like, I don't know if it's a breakup song or is it a love song
5:08 or is it a I messed up or did you mess up or do we hate this person?
5:11 Do we love this person?
5:11 Do we miss them?
5:12 And they're arguing about it today right now.
5:14 And literally this song came out a year ago.
5:17 Yeah.
5:17 And um I think the folded clothes element is a big giveaway
5:20 to me cuz it's like even through even through hatred,
5:23 it's like I still Yeah.
5:25 to fold these clothes.
5:26 And I start the song off by saying like I shouldn't have walked away.
5:31 Like I probably should have just asked for some space.
5:33 I overreacted.
5:34 Like I'm starting the song saying clearly something happened.
5:37 But my issue was that I blew this up.
5:40 So I'm kind of having a peace offering by like saying
5:43 hey like we should probably link up and talk about it
5:45 and I folded your clothes cuz I do care but I
5:47 am hurt because things have obviously changed and things obviously happened.
5:50 And that's where the sting in the tailor is for me.
5:51 if I really want to go super micro on it and lean into the chat on this.
5:55 Uh the folding is a genuine um it is a gesture of acknowledgement and acceptance
6:03 in one's role in something and the care
6:05 it takes to acknowledge the time you spent.
6:07 But equally,
6:08 if you want to send someone on their way
6:11 with a sense of um frustration and and anger, you toss their Exactly.
6:18 If you want them to feel really bad, you fold their That's so petty.
6:26 It's like, and look how nice I'm still being.
6:29 Look at me.
6:32 Oh my god.
6:32 She folded my
6:34 Yeah.
6:34 And I'm I'm a
6:37 Because even the people with their nicest
6:39 can still have a little bit of pushing.
6:42 That's the whole point.
6:42 That's the whole point.
6:43 There's definitely some of that going through this record.
6:45 There's proper boss level but there's also real prayer.
6:48 It starts with an intro that establishes
6:50 exactly what's going on here on this record.
6:54 Um,
6:54 where were you when you wrote the words for intro
6:56 and and why is it important that you start the album that way?
6:59 You know, it's funny.
7:00 The intro actually was the last thing that came.
7:03 I love that.
7:04 And I kind of have like some notorious intros across the years.
7:08 There was the intro on Sweet Sexy Savage that my friend did like a poem.
7:11 There is an intro on you should be here where
7:14 like I'm speaking and like the difference between my voice
7:18 and my energy then of just being like you
7:21 could tell I was fighting to try to find the
7:25 the I guess the the the good part of it.
7:27 But it was it was so much pain and hurt
7:29 in that intro of me just being like I've been
7:31 fighting and I've been fighting and I've seen so much
7:32 and I've been through so much and you're supposed you know
7:36 and to be able to come full circle and I'm like 31
7:40 now and I was what like 20 21 You should be here.
7:43 I was 20 and like say okay you can hear it.
7:47 You can like hear it even in my tone of my speaking voice,
7:50 how, you know, I've grown up and I've matured and I'm confident now.
7:54 And I want everybody to know like going into this, you're
7:56 going to hear someone that's obviously grown and has obviously,
7:59 you know, been reshaped and I hate to say reborn, but a little bit of a rebirth.
8:03 No, that's beautiful.
8:04 In a sense of like I finally really belong to myself and and am in my body
8:09 and I'm embodied and I'm confident and I'm I'm
8:12 very sure of everything that I'm doing right now.
8:14 And it it feels like a 180 from before.
8:16 Were there times when you were creating and you were trying to find
8:18 your way out where you felt that that the art didn't exist without the pain?
8:23 Yeah.
8:23 And I think just you got to be careful
8:26 as a as a as a heavily traumatized person to not make your pain your identity.
8:32 Um but it can it can be quite
8:36 that's the first of many truth bombs over the course of that one too.
8:41 Don't worry about I came prepared for you.
8:43 Uh, no that's very very true because then
8:46 you becomes potentially become something to people that you
8:49 don't want to hold on to but they feel you that is you the vehicle for them
8:53 exly and you become tethered to that energy
8:56 and that emotion like no one wants to like
9:00 I I mean we all talk about manifestation and you know what we speak is
9:03 what we are but and the second you
9:05 start to just identify as everything you've gone
9:07 through you don't give yourself a chance to like grow and heal and change and I
9:12 there's times when Like I see old interviews of myself and all the questions are
9:16 like in your mom and your dad and your childhood
9:18 and your homelessness and your this and I'm
9:20 like I'm seeing over the years how many times I was asked those questions
9:23 and like over time like I'm just like yeah sure yeah yeah sure like
9:27 the the they used to be really long
9:29 answers and now they're like yeah but it's cool.
9:32 Yeah, but it's cool.
9:32 And like over a while you could see that I'm just
9:34 trying to grow from it and I'm trying to I've processed it.
9:37 I've done the things around it and
9:39 yeah you just can't tether yourself in that way.
9:41 So this was me just being like
9:43 love it let's move forward.
9:45 I wonder why as people and remove even like the exercise
9:48 of media to artists the relationship required to gather information out of it
9:52 and let's just look at it from a basic human standpoint.
9:55 I I I wonder why we we do become so attached to people's
9:59 traumatic stories and we want to retell them and hear them again.
10:03 It almost speaks to the side of our psychology as a species where it does
10:07 we, you know, we're almost unable to process
10:09 maybe unable to process our own trauma,
10:11 our own experiences.
10:12 So, we feel somewhat heard or seen by by living vicariously through others.
10:17 I mean, I think that's how kind of like everything was taught in life.
10:21 I mean, even if you think of like religious texts,
10:23 it's all these grand stories of all these ups and downs
10:27 and trials and suffering to then teach us how to
10:30 move through those own those things in our own lives.
10:33 I think that's just how we learn and how we process as humans.
10:36 It's why music works.
10:37 It's why art works.
10:39 It's why dance, you go cry at a ballet because everything
10:41 is just so moving and we need these processes to unstick ourselves.
10:46 Um, so I'm happy that I'm able to share in that way and that I'm able to like,
10:50 you know, connect with people in that way.
10:52 But it does come times where I'm like, are we all just trauma bonding, right?
10:56 This one big ass trauma bond.
11:01 Sure.
11:01 Sure.
11:01 But not at the party.
11:02 Don't be at the party in my ear talking about the trauma.
11:04 I'm going to scream.
11:05 I think when you get to a place where you're
11:07 able to process it with enough distance and enough altitude,
11:10 you can you can choose how to go in and it doesn't become an, you know,
11:13 a natural observation.
11:15 Yeah.
11:15 Well, God willing.
11:16 Oh, you're there.
11:18 You're there on this record.
11:19 You're so there.
11:20 How How do How do you process emotions
11:24 differently now that they're not attached to pain?
11:26 How beautiful is that?
11:27 It's so nice.
11:28 I mean, it honestly came when I had my daughter and not even when I
11:32 had her because I honestly tell people all the time who are like having kids,
11:34 I'm like, "Yo, you'll get the when you really get the hang of it,
11:38 like you'll understand.
11:39 And there comes a point where like you go,
11:41 "Oh," and it's not in the first couple years.
11:44 You know what I mean?
11:45 I feel like the first couple years you're like,
11:46 "How do I care for a human being?" Like, "What do
11:50 listening in?" Like, "Is it okay?"
11:52 I'm like, "Are you breathing?" I'm like putting my finger under her nose.
11:55 For real.
11:56 For real.
11:57 It's all that kind of stuff.
11:58 But when you get to having to like She's seven,
12:01 so she's like having really thoughtful conversations with me.
12:04 She's expressing grievances with me.
12:05 She's telling me things that she wants to change and do differently.
12:08 in ways that she needs certain things for herself and all
12:11 cuz she's just super like autonomous and has so many
12:14 things to say and like that is when everything starts
12:17 to get into this like I'm not processing just for myself.
12:21 I'm processing so I can show up as a mom and so I can show
12:24 up as a student of life and so I can guide her in a certain way.
12:28 and it not being informed via trauma
12:31 is obviously really hard because there's some part
12:33 of the ego that wants to go like I've been through so much and I' I've fought
12:37 so much and like does anybody recognize how
12:38 hard I was fighting this whole time and is
12:40 anybody going to tell me I can rest now give me a pat on the back
12:47 wow
12:47 but you can't wait for that you know
12:49 you got to work your way through it and you know you're
12:51 on the clock when you have a kid too because you know you
12:54 you get no seconds to waste yeah
12:57 and then you know they get to that age and then you start having your firsts,
13:00 your round of firsts, you know,
13:01 all the firsts.
13:02 The first time they they feel rejection.
13:05 Yeah.
13:05 My daughter had a crush and she was like,
13:06 "But he doesn't like me back." And I was like,
13:08 you know, he probably wants to be your best friend.
13:11 And that's the that's actually staring at that moment.
13:16 She's not listening to anything you're saying.
13:18 She's just like, "Damn, mom, just let me be heartbroken for a second."
13:22 And I'm like, "Girl, I'mma fix it for you.
13:24 I hate them all even when they're seven.
13:30 Oh my god.
13:31 You're going to be the best mother-in-law,
13:32 but it's going to be a terrifying trial by era for whoever becomes your
13:36 You know, I actually I think I have such a wide
13:40 understanding of how important it is for like for love to exist.
13:44 And of course, I don't apply this right now.
13:46 She's freaking seven.
13:47 Yeah.
13:47 Yeah.
13:47 We're way Yeah, we're chopping it early.
13:50 Yeah, but I genuinely think that I'm going
13:52 to just thoroughly enjoy seeing how she navigates love in the world.
13:58 Her her her astrology is so funny.
14:00 Like she's an Aquarius Venus and I feel like if anybody listening, you know,
14:04 that means she's going to be just hyper independent and it's
14:07 so different from like how I'm set up and how I'm wired.
14:11 What are you?
14:12 I'm an Aries Venus,
14:14 so everything's got to be on fire and it's got to be
14:16 so passionate and intense and she's kind of probably going to be like,
14:19 "Yeah, I'm doing me." Honestly, I'm I'm excited to learn from her and watch her.
14:23 And
14:24 that's the best part.
14:25 Yeah.
14:25 And like encourage her when I can,
14:26 but I'm very handsoff in the way of like she's she
14:29 leads and I course correct when it gets out the way,
14:32 but I don't I don't tell her these are how things have to go.
14:35 She knows what mommy does.
14:36 Yeah.
14:36 Oh, for sure.
14:37 Yeah.
14:37 And she's a fan of your music.
14:38 She loves it.
14:39 She's like has perfect pitch, has freaky deicky melodic like input.
14:46 Like she's doing her own runs over stuff and I'm like catching her while she's
14:50 in the bathroom like in the shower like singing her own versions and I'm like
14:54 hold on tight mom hold on tight.
14:55 Hold on tight.
14:56 Who is that?
14:57 Because they are by their very nature meant to be better than us.
14:59 And that's the beautiful thing about it.
15:00 That's what I mean.
15:01 Light years ahead of me.
15:02 I have experience in this department, you know,
15:03 and some of my friends have often said to me,
15:05 do you get worried about the people you love the most going into an industry
15:07 that you know as well as you do and how hard it is?
15:09 And I say no because we need good people to keep stewarding this.
15:12 She's got to change the world.
15:14 She's got the tools to do so.
15:15 And I totally think she will.
15:17 Yeah.
15:17 Thanks to you.
15:18 My gosh, so good to see you.
15:20 Nice to see you.
15:22 This album, wow, it's so good start to finish.
15:24 Absolutely incredible from intro.
15:26 You know, I love how you gave Wayne
15:27 the space to really start the album in earnest.
15:30 Yeah.
15:30 And you didn't come in there and take the first beat.
15:33 You just waited to reveal yourself after the goat.
15:36 After the goat.
15:37 That was obviously a conscious decision.
15:39 Talk us through the thinking process.
15:41 So, you know, when he sent the verse back,
15:44 my only requirement to Lil Wayne, was that he must flick the lighter.
15:50 When I sent the song, I said, "I have one request.
15:53 I will never tell you what to do in this life,
15:56 my king, but I need you to flick that lighter." Yeah.
16:00 I need it because what I wanted to happen on this album was I really wanted
16:04 all the features to feel this like joyous return to what they truly love to do
16:10 which they didn't really know what type time I was on.
16:13 was like, "Okay, like I don't know what kind of song
16:14 you're going to send and like you know like we
16:16 the last album and we you know then we heard Folded
16:18 and like what we've heard from other people in the industry.
16:21 You're kind of like taking it back to your roots and like what
16:23 is it?" And then they would get the song and they were like, "Oh,
16:27 they were like, "Oh, I love this.
16:29 I get to do my thing.
16:31 Thanks for thinking of me and so exciting."
16:34 in he didn't send the verse initially back I think
16:36 even in the beginning but I'm like how crazy
16:38 is it to start the album and you hear the lighter flick and he says my name
16:44 and it just it feels so celebratory and such like
16:48 a like I get to step back and just say take your place and do your thing and
16:52 it's a really beautiful generous gift to not not just to yourself
16:55 and to Wayne but to us as fans too and it really heightens the anticipation
16:58 of you arriving on this record and opening your mouth and and we
17:02 hear the tone and we hear the words and the truth And it's like,
17:04 oh wow, it's it's beautiful.
17:06 It's like a wonderful It's the kind of thing
17:07 that I remember some of my favorite rap records
17:09 used to do is they would just allow other
17:11 people to step in and then they will come in.
17:13 It's a little confident.
17:15 Yeah, it's confident.
17:15 It's a little like Yeah.
17:16 Like just know by the time you hear my voice going to be great,
17:18 but just enjoy this right now as a fan cuz I'm a fan.
17:21 So I got to fan out.
17:23 This is this is my favorite thing to do.
17:25 Confidence is an essential part of the equation.
17:28 It doesn't come easily and it's not always present.
17:30 And in fact, great art gets made in a very unconfident space.
17:33 That's where vulnerability can exist, too.
17:34 But now that you have achieved this hard earned confidence
17:37 and you know and you bring it with you,
17:39 um, how kind are you to your former self when you didn't have it?
17:47 Um, you know, I don't think I spend too many conscious moments,
17:51 which I probably should, like really looking backwards.
17:56 You do do you do therapy?
17:57 I do do therapy.
17:58 I've been in therapy for a very long time to the point where
18:00 I had to start going into other alternative routes of therapy because it got
18:04 to the point the four year mark of my therapist and we're kind of just
18:07 like looking at each other like so you want to play a game like
18:11 you clock therapy there's only so many body scans I can do
18:16 clocked therapy like you have clocked the game
18:19 I mean when you're getting to the point where like
18:21 you're saying things and you're like yeah but I know where
18:23 that comes from I knew what other option I had
18:25 to how to behave in this situation I know where I was.
18:30 Like I should have taken a beat before I start repeating myself.
18:35 I'm not going to learn this lesson at this point.
18:37 When am I going?
18:37 And girl, I'm paying you so much money.
18:39 Like what are we talking about?
18:41 There is that part.
18:43 There is that part.
18:43 So where did you take it from there?
18:44 I mean, if if if you're in a situation where, okay, therapy is waiting for me.
18:47 It's always there for a tuneup, but how do I how do I stay present?
18:50 How do I now start to process what's
18:51 going on in my life today and applying that?
18:53 It's really God.
18:55 Like it really is.
18:56 like I wouldn't say I ever lost faith in life.
19:00 I was I was raised Christian.
19:02 Um and then the woman that was taking me to church, my grandmother passed away.
19:05 So there was nobody else who had time
19:07 or had a church relationship to then take me.
19:10 My mom took me to the ashram a lot to meditate.
19:13 Um she was always very spiritual like always she would listen to like
19:17 the secret like in the car the audio book on the way to school.
19:20 So she was always like very tapped in, very connected and upon making
19:25 like such a conscious return to to religion and to and to God
19:30 and to Jesus Christ like really rerattled me like in such
19:35 a like I would say like a Christ consciousness kind of way.
19:38 Like can you describe what that means?
19:40 really removing the the parameters of like structure
19:45 and religion and like this kind of like very
19:49 human applied thing to this massive very high
19:53 IQ very smart very deep thing that is you
19:57 know Jesus journey and and just I have so
20:00 many moments where like I guess in the past
20:02 this would have been sarcastic but now it's
20:04 so real I will say what would Jesus do
20:06 yeah so it's a micro almost rather than a macro experience it's not
20:09 like it happens once a week it's Like it could be an irre action
20:11 all the time.
20:12 I'm like, yo, like this would be a situation
20:14 that would would have required love as the response.
20:17 When I really want to like have a cold shoulder, I want to like be reactive.
20:22 Like what would Jesus do?
20:24 Yo, he would probably just say like I
20:26 can choose love here and like that be that.
20:30 Really simple.
20:30 Be kind to your neighbors.
20:32 Honor your family.
20:33 Like
20:34 it's so much more simple.
20:35 And I feel like humans have just taken it on one and we've turned,
20:37 you know, we we kind of turn everything into something that it isn't.
20:40 We like cuz we love to own
20:42 Yeah.
20:42 And we just do it up and we just we harm
20:44 a lot of really beautiful and and simple things that way.
20:48 I agree.
20:48 I used to, you know,
20:49 there have been times when I've been in really low places
20:51 and um I've been in cities or whatever and I've gone into churches,
20:54 not that I I I I particularly adhere to any one religion,
20:57 but I've gone in because I because I've wanted a place of of quiet and
21:01 then you're massively moved.
21:02 Massively moved.
21:04 And I'm just overwhelmed by the beauty all around me.
21:09 Yeah.
21:08 And about, you know,
21:09 the fact that and I really have always walked out of there going,
21:13 you know, I just experienced something that has collected
21:18 soulful and spiritual moments and held it in this beautiful holding place
21:24 container.
21:23 So you literally go in and you're just like, whoa, I'm in this wonderful swirl.
21:29 Simple.
21:29 It is usually about just the songs.
21:34 Somebody sharing a passage that they're relating to your everyday life.
21:39 There's more songs.
21:42 Mhm.
21:41 There's a collective gratitude moment.
21:44 Mhm.
21:44 That's it.
21:46 Mhm.
21:45 And we've turned it into all of this.
21:47 when when I when I went back and really just stripped everything
21:52 and said, "Wow, this is just supposed to make me happier, healthier,
21:57 more whole, and have something that I truly believe is orchestrated for me."
22:03 Yeah.
22:02 I don't really have to apply all those other things.
22:04 I don't know you guys.
22:05 You guys don't know me.
22:06 You don't know anything about my life.
22:07 I don't I don't have to apply any
22:09 of this like painful I can apply uh curiosity here.
22:13 I have so much curiosity about Jesus.
22:15 I have so many questions.
22:16 I have so many there was there's books about years he spent in India and all
22:21 these things where I'm like wow this is
22:23 actually really cool and there's so much more
22:24 to it than but we've we've you know we've got a little nitpicky about it and I
22:28 don't want to be anywhere near that I
22:29 just would really like to be informed by love
22:33 so I will stay in my little Christ consciousness love bubble
22:37 you it sounds like a beautiful shape oh it's been the best
22:43 I love church and it's yours
22:45 yeah it is
22:46 it's yours You're right.
22:46 I I think we get too swept up in the um in in the you
22:50 know uh the contribution the forced contribution
22:54 of it all in order to maintain the architecture.
22:57 Yeah.
22:57 I started talking about Jesus and everybody's like when's your gospel album?
22:59 And I was like
23:01 oh yeah, don't put it on me.
23:02 How did we get all the way here?
23:03 Okay.
23:03 Well, now you got to start dressing different and you got
23:05 to start looking different and everything's
23:06 got everything has to change about you.
23:08 And I'm like,
23:09 wow, you can't see that it's doing exactly what it should be doing right now.
23:13 Do I not seem lighter?
23:14 Do I not seem healthier?
23:15 Do I not seem more focused and grounded?
23:17 I think it's working.
23:18 Well, I think it's because to some degree,
23:19 and I don't want to speak for for anyone religion,
23:21 but I think the idea of um uh some
23:24 kind of spiritual consumption on mass ultimately really urges,
23:28 even with the best of intentions, um others, like I said, to contribute
23:32 um to give something back that that serves the masses, right?
23:35 And there's something really beautiful about that.
23:36 We all have to exist on one rock and we have to contribute and work together
23:40 as one at m and especially in moments
23:42 of of of real of real trauma and real challenge.
23:45 But I I I've never liked the idea of enforced anything.
23:50 Yeah.
23:49 Certainly from a you should for aside from just basically trying
23:52 to be a good person and contribute in a meaningful way.
23:56 Yeah.
23:55 It's it's hard when you get told like yeah welcome to the party.
23:58 What are you doing?
23:59 And Jesus was a disruptor.
24:01 He basically came through and said, "Oh,
24:04 all of this crazy human stuff you guys are doing, that's not what it's about.
24:08 All I'm saying is I've been here
24:09 to be a human representation of this massive love,
24:13 and I'm just here to do I don't even want you to worship me.
24:16 I just want you to see me as flesh,
24:18 just as you guys are." And see, I'm a representation of something bigger.
24:22 I'm just here to say a couple things, get my things, and be about my way.
24:26 Love that.
24:28 Disrupt.
24:28 I don't have to do none of that.
24:30 I'm I'm following instruction from who
24:33 I'm supposed to be following instruction from.
24:35 And that's where it ends.
24:36 God, we're a fascinating species, aren't we?
24:38 We really are.
24:39 We use the ego.
24:40 We use the ego when we need it.
24:41 This is the thing, you know, you use the ego until it starts to use you.
24:46 Yeah.
24:45 And then it gets really turn table turns really really fast.
24:48 One thing about them tables, they turn.
24:52 They're going to turn.
24:56 Yes.
24:55 Nothing lazy about that, Susan.
24:57 That will turn real fast.
24:59 Uh I just love the fact that you have achieved things in the last
25:03 18 months that your ego as a younger person would have just
25:09 eaten up.
25:10 Yes.
25:10 Oh, I could just give me more of that.
25:13 And I feel like you're just like cool.
25:19 Yeah.
25:19 Because I have had things in my hands before and my hands weren't,
25:22 you know, ready enough to carry them and they I dropped the ball.
25:25 Yeah.
25:25 And whether it was fear, whether it was to overly excited ego or I didn't
25:30 have the tools as a person with mental health issues,
25:33 not having the tools and you all of a sudden you go from zero to 100
25:37 and it's chaos and it's money and it's
25:38 people and it's attention and it's all these things.
25:40 You're like, "Oh man, it is a gluttonous thing.
25:43 It it makes all the disorders just gluttonous." Yeah.
25:46 They just you just turn upside down.
25:49 And um I'm glad that I'm I'm I'm seasoned in a way of I've
25:54 been in this world for so long to where I've seen massive fast ups.
25:59 I've seen really low lows and I've seen plateaus.
26:02 I've plateaued.
26:02 I've done I've done all of those things
26:04 to where this now feels like I'm taking these steps,
26:07 but I'm also like carrying them properly.
26:10 I'm also being really really aware.
26:12 I'm not just like and I'm not freaked out,
26:15 you I'm not scared, which is really cool because fear
26:18 is an emotion that ran me for a really long time.
26:21 I think I've done maybe I don't want to count,
26:22 but I mean a lot of interviews, a lot of conversations with you.
26:25 You know, we've spoken a few times off the record.
26:27 We've spoken, you know, quite a few times on the record.
26:30 Um, it's not for me to put them in any kind of hierarchy or category in terms.
26:33 That's for you to understand your growth, but
26:35 it is beautiful to have an honest conversation with you
26:37 where you do not feel afraid or seem afraid at all.
26:41 I I appreciate it cuz I know I have been Yeah.
26:44 And you know, I think something about that is
26:46 the whole like being famous since I was a teenager.
26:51 Yeah.
26:50 And you like every time you feel an emotion for yourself,
26:53 you realize at some point that that's
26:55 going to be plastered to millions of people.
26:58 And so you start to be in this like you start to hyper surveil yourself.
27:01 And like for the last like
27:04 basically 12 13 years, I've been hyper surveilling myself.
27:07 Like I I will go to say something and then my brain
27:09 will think of the five possible ways I can maybe get cancelceled
27:11 for saying it and how people could take it wrong and who's
27:14 going to dissect it and I'm like I shouldn't even say that.
27:16 But it's your job to say it and I'm asking you a question and I have to answer,
27:20 you know, similar questions five other times for other people and
27:23 spiral.
27:23 I'm just at the point where I'm like, you know,
27:26 who I'm meant to connect with and who's meant to hear
27:28 this and receive this and see me and and and whether
27:32 they believe me or not or see the earnesty and the honesty
27:34 and all the things that that's exactly who it's for.
27:37 And we're just in a place where like people are
27:39 going to twist it up and turn it up regardless.
27:42 And that fear cannot belong to me.
27:44 Vic Mensah was saying a similar thing recently cuz you know I love
27:46 Vic and Vicin Vic is the best and what he's what he's doing is
27:51 God bless you Vic.
27:51 Yeah, we we love that orange tree.
27:53 We we absolutely do.
27:54 And he was talking about that.
27:55 He was saying a similar thing about how, you know,
27:57 he was so caught up and and and afraid to say
27:59 what was on in his mind and on in his spirit
28:02 that he was just like paralyzed basically every night.
28:04 Every night.
28:05 And then he started he was like, I can't do it anymore.
28:06 And he had this eruption of truth.
28:08 And he said his life changed for the better the second he let it go.
28:11 You know, you can't I just think we're here as vessels.
28:14 Artists are just here as vessels.
28:16 And there's like a whole spiritual concept that when you receive something,
28:20 if you don't then put it out because that was the point of receiving it,
28:24 you kind of start chipping at this like spiritual gift that you have.
28:29 And it's almost like spirit begins to not trust you to be able to share that.
28:34 So maybe the the what it gives you to receive becomes less and less.
28:38 And I I started to feel that way.
28:39 I'm like, I don't even know if I'm hearing
28:42 things I used to hear things or or seeing
28:44 the the the God and everything how I used
28:47 to because I'm now cutting I'm cutting God off.
28:50 You're gatekeeping your experiences your emotions.
28:54 Yeah.
28:53 Exactly.
28:53 At the end of the day, like we also are, for some reason,
28:56 our gets sensationalized way crazier than this is like way
29:01 crazier is happening to regular people up and down the street.
29:03 You go outside your house right now and your neighbors
29:05 is going through the craziest you ever heard in your life.
29:07 But it's crazy when our is minimized and then it's everywhere.
29:11 Can we talk about the Can we go Can we just dabble
29:13 in the in the in the world of conspiracies for a second?
29:16 I mean, you know, just for a second.
29:17 And I'm not I'm not particularly conspiratorial, but
29:20 I'm not either, but on the on the tip of this year,
29:22 finding out every conspiracy EVER IS DETROIT.
29:24 MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE BEEN.
29:26 Y'all was right.
29:26 Where my tin foil hat at?
29:28 Seriously.
29:29 Seriously,
29:29 get me one.
29:30 Get me a copper beanie right now.
29:32 I believe it.
29:33 100%.
29:34 I think about the arts and I think about this is a very deeply rooted
29:37 institutionalized belief structure from people in power
29:40 who are afraid of the freedom of voice
29:42 because the arts can't be controlled the way media can now social media can now.
29:46 Everything else is to some degree owned.
29:48 I'm not wrong.
29:48 It's owned.
29:48 It's owned by a very few amount of people.
29:50 And you know the arts are very very free.
29:53 And someone said this to me once.
29:54 They were like it's one of the last free spaces.
29:56 This might be well I am said one
29:57 of the last free spaces you can say anything if you're
29:59 clever and good about it and things like without
30:01 disruption and without distraction
30:03 and without someone gatekeeping your thoughts.
30:05 So well that's the last remaining thing we have to control.
30:09 So let's plant the seed of distrust amongst artists.
30:13 That's why when someone says something that they really believe in rich spoiled
30:17 musician comes out and says you know the same narrative starts to creep out.
30:21 Shut up and sing your songs right?
30:22 this this kind of idea of of devaluing
30:25 and questioning the or the credibility of your statement.
30:29 Absolutely.
30:29 And yet it couldn't be more credible cuz it's yours.
30:31 Exactly.
30:32 And it's this it's this tired like it's this super
30:35 tired we must not know anything or we're so privileged we
30:39 couldn't possibly relate to the people that we're speaking about
30:41 when it's like do you guys think we're all NEPO babies?
30:44 Like, do you guys like it couldn't be the the the ones
30:48 of us that literally were homeless before or came up from nothing
30:52 and was dropping free songs on Soundcloud and was begging people
30:55 to come to our concerts that had freaking 60 people in the room.
30:58 Like, that point.
31:00 I Someone the other day, this is so funny, I have to say it.
31:04 Someone the other day said, I it's it's interesting that I chose
31:09 to perform my song Folded at the Iheart Awards
31:13 in a laundrymat because there's no way that I had I be in the laundry mat.
31:19 And I did that to then be relatable when I should have stuck with the cleaners.
31:28 I ain't had no washer and dryer grown.
31:30 I've been in the laundry mat.
31:31 I my my mother still goes to the laundry mat.
31:34 I'm not laughing because of because
31:35 of the the the the un undeniable truth of it.
31:38 I'm laughing because it's just such a shitty base count.
31:41 It's so shot out.
31:43 Shot the out.
31:44 I'm sorry.
31:44 It's shot the out.
31:48 Yeah.
31:47 There's no way I've been to a laundry me and my all of my garage tattoos.
31:52 There's no way I've been to a laundromat.
31:55 It's ridiculous.
31:57 But you heard it here first.
31:58 I've never been to a laundromat.
31:59 Thank you.
32:00 Some truth at last.
32:02 Some truth at last.
32:04 We all know you've been bougie from the day you were born.
32:06 This is all like a lie.
32:08 Hello.
32:08 Obviously, look at me.
32:10 No, that's not the point.
32:11 The point isn't whether or not you had a tough
32:13 upbringing and that's factually correct or you didn't this this this.
32:16 The point is they don't don't speak your truth.
32:20 Yeah.
32:20 Do as you told.
32:21 Yeah.
32:23 Crazy.
32:22 I mean, and we've never been that's just never what art has been about.
32:26 Like art has been such a key point in political history.
32:28 Like what?
32:29 Like in war there was the Beatles.
32:32 Yeah.
32:32 You know what I mean?
32:32 Like there's Nina Simone.
32:34 There's so many parts where things were just an artist saying,
32:39 "I have a They're probably in the room by themselves for all we know.
32:42 I have a thought.
32:43 I have a passion about something.
32:44 I have a good feeling about something.
32:45 I'm just making a song." Did we know that these things would then become
32:50 Well, yes and no.
32:51 Yeah, your consciousness, I'm sure, would never pick up on it,
32:54 but there is something very beautiful and spiritually connected between
32:57 the um artistic process and the reality of what we live in.
33:01 It's a bit it's a bit chicken and egg,
33:03 but I can never figure out which one comes
33:04 first and I'm sure you've had moments where you're like,
33:07 which came first, the song or the experience?
33:09 Because I feel like they're circling each other in this ballet.
33:12 There's been some freaky manifestation moments in my life where I wrote the song
33:15 or wrote the album and then I lived it afterwards and everybody then
33:18 confused the timeline and was like this must have happened before and I'm
33:21 like no no no I think I got to be careful what I write
33:24 and that becomes a problem cuz then you're like I
33:26 don't want to speak into existence but I feel it so
33:29 I lived my last album to the tea and I was like wait a minute is this my fault
33:36 crazy
33:35 I did this to myself
33:38 crazy
33:38 afterwards yeah I was crazy going in circles
33:40 whole time I'm just like I want to I want to make conceptual album and I
33:42 have concepts I want to think about and then I live to out them concepts.
33:45 Yeah, because your voice inside was just like I hate to break it to you.
33:48 Is it going to happen one way or the other?
33:49 I got to start just writing.
33:51 I need a million dollars.
33:53 Congratulations on your million dollars by the way.
33:55 I want to save the world.
33:57 You know,
33:57 congratulations on saving the world by the way.
33:59 Speak it.
34:00 Speak it into my life.
34:03 I said at the beginning of the conversation,
34:05 one of the things that really jumps out across this body
34:07 of work is not just that the songs know each other
34:09 so beautifully and and that each one of them holds down
34:12 holds their position in this overall experience in such a lovely way,
34:15 but the quality of the of the music is just
34:18 who you worked with and how you brought it to life.
34:20 You know, I'm obsessed with your vocal lines, your runs.
34:22 I'm obsessed with your harmonies.
34:24 I know you work really hard on those.
34:26 I'm obsessed with the
34:29 Hey, you know, I got a little signature scale thing.
34:31 You really do have a signature scale thing in there, you know, and I love it.
34:34 So, how much fun was it to perform
34:36 these songs and and give us some examples of some
34:38 moments as you're making the record that just kind
34:40 of like were out of the box spiritually beautiful, you know?
34:42 I think writing is one thing and then vocals is one thing.
34:46 And that was something that I admired so
34:48 much about what Brandy and Leon Daniels had.
34:51 um him knowing her capabilities and then using his little freaky deicky mind,
34:56 you know, rest his soul, to create this like universe of like choices that were
35:02 hers that this generation really got to learn from.
35:05 And when I met Dixon, who I love so much,
35:08 and the way that we work together on vocals is like usually me trying something,
35:14 him telling me I can sing higher than I think I can.
35:19 me saying, "I can't sing that." Him being like, "You've done it before.
35:22 You can do this live so you can do it here.
35:24 Push it." Or me being like, "No, no, no.
35:27 I think I need to do that five more times." And him being like,
35:28 "You got the take like 10 times ago."
35:31 But we treat all of these things differently, creating the actual song.
35:35 I go and live with the song for a while and then
35:38 I go do a recut because usually when I'm first writing the song,
35:41 I really consider my songwriting and my me
35:45 as a vocalist two completely different things.
35:48 And I also like low-key produced a lot on this album.
35:51 It was a lot of like my sound choices and what
35:53 I wanted it to sound like and put that there.
35:54 And
35:55 that's highkey.
35:55 Yeah, highkey.
35:56 Highkey.
35:57 Um, so once we get, you know, the the beat right and then we sit and we write
36:01 the song and we spend time diving deeper into that world.
36:03 My favorite part is getting to then take it and we recorded
36:07 almost everything the final cuts in my room which was really awesome.
36:11 That's like my just me and my engineer and Dixon or me and my engineer
36:14 and just kind of like zoning in and like now I know the song.
36:18 I get to live with the song.
36:19 I get to play with it and add inflections
36:21 where I didn't have it when I was writing it.
36:23 And that's that's the funnest part.
36:25 And as far as like spiritual experiences, it was really cool to build that song
36:32 that Brandy song um and imagine like what she
36:37 would sound on it cuz we didn't get to do it together cuz she was on tour.
36:40 Yeah.
36:40 Um, and actually all of those backgrounds are me.
36:44 And I was like, I just know she's about to send me 152 backgrounds.
36:47 And she said, I love you so bad and here's my verse and my my bridge with you.
36:51 And I didn't have time to do these backgrounds, but girl, you handled it for us.
36:53 And I said,
36:55 I can't believe this.
36:58 In the best way.
36:59 In the way.
37:00 Cuz there's also people who fan talking.
37:02 Exactly.
37:02 I'm like, I couldn't wait to see what little crazy thing she did.
37:05 But then she all them runs.
37:07 Jesus Christ.
37:08 And you know, it was cool because Brandy,
37:10 she she super served the song.
37:12 She did,
37:12 you know, she actually did the thing that most artists wouldn't do,
37:14 a lot of artists wouldn't do, and that is parked her ego at the door and served
37:17 what was best for the song in that moment in time.
37:19 Yeah.
37:19 And also, she just like is so invested in the song being the best that it is.
37:23 Like, she's literally like, "Let me know if you need more.
37:26 Let me know what you want to do.
37:27 Let me know what this is.
37:28 I believe in you.
37:29 I love you." Like,
37:31 it's actually unreal to me that my hero is a good hero to have.
37:35 You know what I mean?
37:37 They say don't meet your heroes,
37:38 but I met the out of mine and now she's like that's my girl.
37:42 That's what that's going to be the name of my book if I ever write one.
37:44 Copyright this Meet your heroes cuz I because I have literally had nothing
37:48 but an incredible lifetime of experience and learn
37:51 from the greatest people in the plan.
37:52 And that's been my experience all over this album with all of these features.
37:55 I really wanted to like get people that I really adore and all
37:58 of them just poured so much into me and it's was no bad experience.
38:02 It was not a single moment of ego.
38:05 Everybody was like, "Well, I really love this." They check on me.
38:07 They speak to me outside of this.
38:09 Like, they they're invested in what's going on right now.
38:11 Not just, "Oh, I have a little verse
38:13 on your album." It's it's such a real a real real real thing.
38:16 And
38:17 I'm grateful.
38:20 Nerd.
38:20 I'm grateful.
38:21 Nerd alert.
38:22 Nerd alert.
38:23 I'm getting into this one.
38:25 Jam and Lewis.
38:28 Yeah.
38:27 For me, and anyone who knows me knows
38:29 this, and anyone who's a regular listener knows this, um,
38:32 are just all time for me.
38:34 Great.
38:34 as as they should be
38:36 time.
38:36 Um, you know, their ability to write these songs that make you
38:39 dance that give you this dynamic thing to connect to, but you're crying.
38:43 Yeah.
38:43 The emotion comes along for the ride.
38:45 Someone's talking about sex, but like you're crying.
38:47 Yeah.
38:48 Yeah.
38:48 But like they take these really big tough guys and they make them cry.
38:53 Yeah.
38:53 Like in in while they're singing these songs like
38:55 it's just unbelievable what they were able to achieve.
38:57 And I mean that's just I mean look from New Addition to Jenna
39:00 Jackson to you know Human Lead to Yourself to across the board.
39:03 It's just unbelievable.
39:04 So, let's just let's just nerd out a little bit.
39:06 Um, what was that experience like getting to work with them?
39:08 Simple question.
39:09 You know what was the craziest thing ever was I pulled up to this studio.
39:12 They have like a compound
39:15 and when I say every inch of the wall, I'm talking it's a warehouse.
39:19 How is every inch of the space just covered in history?
39:24 I know.
39:25 Like photos and accolades and trophies and he
39:29 Jimmy Jan walked me around and was like, "This is the piano I played on.
39:32 Doesn't really matter." Like this is the piano we use on I get so lonely.
39:36 Like I'm literally like and they're separate ones.
39:40 They're two separate.
39:41 There's like a million keyboards.
39:43 I They just have like Grammys and cases and it's
39:47 it's I was walking around like low-key freaked out.
39:50 I was like I had a little bit of an imposter syndrome of like what am I doing?
39:55 What are we going to make?
39:56 Like an old friend of mine drove me out there telling me I was going to cuz I
40:00 was writing songs at the time and he was like I want you to be a publisher.
40:02 And I'm like, I have a publisher.
40:03 And he's like, no, I want you to meet a publisher.
40:05 I'm like, I have a publisher.
40:06 Why are we taking a publishing meeting?
40:08 Why did Why did he say publisher?
40:09 And I'm not going to say where it is, but about an hour outside of LA.
40:11 And I'm like, you know what?
40:12 What what the are we doing?
40:13 And we pull into this in this warehouse and I walk in and he
40:16 taught me there and surprised me to go to go and meet Jimmy.
40:19 Oh my goodness.
40:20 And you know what?
40:21 They're so sweet and kind.
40:24 And I also just love that they have never strayed from their classic outfits.
40:29 Also, like I pulled up and Jimmy Jam had the hat on and I said, "Exactly."
40:37 Exactly.
40:37 This is the experience I dreamt about.
40:39 Yeah.
40:39 When you listen back to the monitor mix and you
40:41 know that you've got enough and it's there and you
40:43 can all you have to do now is just
40:44 add nuances and just and put the sprinkle on it.
40:46 That must have been one of the greatest moments of your life.
40:49 Yeah.
40:49 It was crazy because basically I took the verse they have two studios.
40:53 I took the verse from I mean the the beat from Jimmy
40:55 Jams and then I went into Tererry's studio and I started like writing
40:59 and I was just super underconident.
41:01 I remember leaving and being like
41:04 I don't know about this.
41:05 Like I don't know if I'm that's the song for the beat.
41:08 Like I just it's it's not it's not my best.
41:12 We lived with it.
41:13 We rewrote it and then what they like turned it into and when
41:16 they came to the studio to do final cuts and final editions and them
41:19 like pulling out their all their keyboards and giving me notes and and vocal
41:23 producing me and like them just not letting a single thing get cheated.
41:29 Yeah.
41:28 Like they were like, "No, no, no.
41:30 We're going to need eight more eight more stacks just on that word."
41:34 Oh, it's legendary.
41:35 You've seen the footage of Janet flipping out.
41:37 Right.
41:38 You want 16 of them on that word.
41:39 You can have you have 32.
41:41 And they're like, "We like her.
41:42 She's great.
41:43 She's great.
41:43 She puts the work.
41:44 Whatever that Janet is just going, "GOD DAMN IT, JIMMY JIM.
41:46 I'M NOT DOING ANOTHER TAKE." It's so good.
41:50 And I'm just sitting there like, "Yeah, yeah,
41:51 sure." They're they're telling me what to do.
41:52 I did have my moments where I was like, "Guys, that's what I'm saying.
41:56 How much more can I sing?
41:57 My voice is gone." That's so good.
41:59 Especially cuz they they had to walk
42:01 me through the like basically the original version
42:03 that's just solo cuz I had to then send it to Brandy for her to cut.
42:06 So, I'm singing this and I'm like, "God,
42:08 you don't want to just let her have it?" like they're like, "No,
42:10 we need to make sure you get
42:12 this version so we can send everything off perfectly."
42:14 Cuz they're so they're crossing their tees and they're
42:16 dotting their eyes and it's such a like a level of quality that is
42:20 so missing from like our generation in general.
42:23 I really don't want to separate myself or seem like I'm separate.
42:27 I think a couple statements I've made recently have come
42:29 off like I was like separating myself from like my peers
42:32 and R&B and I was definitely a part of the like
42:35 laziness for a long time of just but it's it's
42:38 mean cut the record put the record out.
42:39 Make another record and just keep it moving.
42:41 Yeah.
42:41 Do it sound good.
42:42 Y'all feel it?
42:42 Do a slap in the car.
42:43 Cool.
42:44 We can move on.
42:44 But there's just this application of like extreme
42:48 attention to detail that like the OG's had
42:51 that was like you're going to feel every bit
42:53 of this and we need to comb through it.
42:55 that even if we press play on the ac cappella or we just play
42:58 the beat or we just play the bridge that like you still feel the same
43:02 way about the song and it was just really it was such a cool
43:05 student opportunity for me and like just some nerdy just nerd alert for sure
43:10 nerd alert for sure you know I I think that that that desire to just like
43:15 make it that's why I don't this is okay I'll separate
43:20 myself this is where people going to be like all right I'm going to talk my
43:24 dude has lost his Fine.
43:25 Uh, I I'm not a big fan of the term drop when it comes to music.
43:29 Sounds like sneakers to me.
43:31 And my thing is like you got to drop a song like Yeah.
43:35 I just don't like it.
43:36 I'm really word orientated.
43:38 Yeah.
43:38 You like release.
43:39 I like just release, you know?
43:41 I like it.
43:41 But now that you mention it, that sounds drastically different.
43:45 Right.
43:45 When I'm I dropped a song like pick it up, man.
43:49 Like Why'd you drop it for?
43:50 You spend all this time making it.
43:52 Why'd you just drop it?
43:53 Like just pick it up.
43:53 Now that's so real.
43:54 So I get it and I understand it and it
43:56 has this place in terminology and I'm sure I use it.
43:58 I'm sure I'm contradicting myself every day but but I just think it
44:01 speaks to what you're saying about this idea that like a life well lived.
44:04 You need to put the same care
44:05 into the creating the recreation of the experience than
44:07 you did than you had in the experience
44:09 in itself and you didn't live that experience quickly.
44:12 Yeah.
44:11 Most of the time most of the time it had to marinate
44:13 and live with you and become something that you want to write about.
44:17 Absolutely.
44:16 You got to put the same time in.
44:18 Yeah.
44:18 They just they they put belt to ass.
44:21 They They put belt to ass.
44:24 I was sitting in there.
44:25 I'm I'm looking at boxes of like cassette tapes of demos.
44:32 Yeah.
44:32 Freaking the out.
44:36 Yeah.
44:34 Like new edition demo 1991.
44:37 Like all I'm like any heartbreak level.
44:40 Like what what what is on that?
44:41 I'm like you got a um you got a cassette thingy I could borrow.
44:44 What is what is on that?
44:45 You got you got a tape player I could borrow?
44:48 Cuz I need to hear this right now.
44:50 Yeah, it's crazy.
44:50 And they're just sitting around.
44:52 I know.
44:52 I know.
44:53 They're nonchalant about that stuff, but deadly serious about the rest of it.
44:56 Like life serious about the rest of it.
45:00 Absolutely.
45:00 Um, you know, I feel like you and Usher on this album is a flawless
45:04 victory and it was inevitable and I feel like Folded was the final step of like,
45:09 you know what, this is just going to happen again and we're going to do this.
45:13 So, let's talk a little bit about that because
45:14 I know that's a really important song to you
45:16 and it's it's out front of the record
45:17 and and is representing the record to some degree.
45:19 So tell us a little story about making that one.
45:21 It's so funny because it like the the defining
45:24 moment of that song happened in this room.
45:27 I was here doing my takeover and you know Chris Apple Music.
45:32 Yes.
45:32 At Apple Music.
45:33 And Chris was with me
45:36 and he goes I think he like said it lightly like yeah we got the Usher feature.
45:39 I think you guys were asking me like
45:42 if I could have gotten anybody on the folded remix
45:46 that didn't come on the pack and I said Usher and he
45:49 was like yeah we he's on the album and I literally
45:51 verbatim said do we want to spill those beans right now?
45:54 That's right.
45:54 I remember this.
45:55 I said are we spilling the beans?
45:56 remember that?
45:57 And he said, "Yeah." And I said, "We got a Usher feature."
46:00 This came up in a meeting cuz someone was like,
46:01 "And Kan, he did a radio show as well,
46:02 which was fantastic." And I think we got an Usher exclusive,
46:04 but I'm not 100% sure.
46:07 That you we pause, we go on break.
46:11 Yeah.
46:10 He FaceTimes me or calls me and I'm like,
46:13 "There's no way you heard that that fast.
46:15 You're not tuned in to my Apple Music thing right now, Usher."
46:19 And there's no way fans got this and sent it to you cuz I was also on live.
46:22 Yeah.
46:22 Yeah.
46:23 He said, "Oh, that's great.
46:24 I I just called to tell you I think we need a different song.
46:29 Wow.
46:29 I don't like our song.
46:30 Wow.
46:30 Good for him.
46:32 Exactly.
46:32 My brain didn't go, "Oh, He hates me." My brain went, "Oh, he really cares."
46:39 Yeah.
46:39 And it was such a valuable lesson.
46:41 Like, I went over to his house after.
46:44 We played so much music.
46:45 We listened to my whole album.
46:47 We listened to stuff that he's been working on.
46:49 We were talking about pers like perspective wise,
46:51 where are we at with it based on the reality of our two worlds?
46:54 How do we coexist on a song?
46:56 What do we want to bring out of each other?
46:57 If we're going to shoot a video, do we need to dance?
46:59 Does it have to be a dable song?
47:01 Like, we really combed through all of it.
47:04 And it ended up being like a way longer process.
47:06 It was like a couple more times of hanging
47:08 out and trying to get through it and sending
47:09 songs back and forth and calling in our collaborators
47:12 and kind of putting our brains together and
47:14 ended up being Baby Face, which is so cool.
47:18 So, it's like the freaking Baby Face song is the Usher song.
47:22 And it's like what?
47:23 This album is like this is your life.
47:24 It's literally literally I'm like what is happening?
47:29 And again, it's something that I'm I'm currently applying all over the place.
47:33 Like when people are sending me songs and I'm like, you know,
47:35 is this the song we need to put out
47:37 in the world between us right now versus you know me, I'm the feature king.
47:40 Like I'll just throw a little verse and send it out.
47:43 And now I'm like, wait, is there intention here?
47:46 Yeah.
47:46 And if you're really this good and I consider myself to be good at what I do,
47:50 then maybe we should make sure it's really
47:52 great and we've put the care behind it.
47:54 And yeah, he he really like it was it was hours of us like this.
48:02 I can totally see him doing this.
48:04 Literally listening to the song and he's like, I don't know.
48:07 And I'm like, I I also don't know.
48:11 Plays another one.
48:12 We're both like what?
48:15 I for a second there I was like I it guys.
48:17 I it.
48:18 I told everybody I told everybody at Apple and now everybody's
48:22 going Usher Usher and now we're like we don't have it.
48:25 But now we got the song.
48:26 I'm so happy he did that.
48:27 He did his he did his rap.
48:29 He did his Urser rap.
48:32 Yeah.
48:31 I got to I got to Urser rap and for the like super super fan in me.
48:37 It was it's one of the coolest moments on the project to me for sure.
48:40 You are just living your super fan dreams.
48:43 my inner child.
48:44 That is That is my inner child.
48:47 And I love the artwork.
48:48 I'm glad you brought it up because to me and I and we're not trauma bonding.
48:52 We're not.
48:53 But this is um to me almost a reflection of the person I met in 2016, but happy.
49:00 Yeah.
49:00 Your hair was the same.
49:01 I did that on purpose.
49:02 I know.
49:03 I love when the dots connect.
49:05 I know.
49:06 And I love that.
49:07 It's like it's it's like um there's a parallel universe going
49:12 on and that young person that And can I can I say something?
49:16 I'm trying to get emotional.
49:17 When I met you the first time,
49:18 it was at a South by Southwest thing and you were in so much pain, dude.
49:23 Yeah.
49:22 You were just like not you were there was nothing behind the eyes.
49:25 I remember.
49:26 Yeah.
49:26 I was probably on drugs.
49:28 I have a photo of you, me and Thug and you are not there.
49:31 Yeah.
49:31 But that you that is what you looked like from a physical point of view in terms
49:36 of like the the features and the attributes
49:38 and the hair and the things that stand out.
49:40 But there's light in the eyes and I I'm I'm glad that you acknowledged that cuz
49:44 I did see it and I thought I wonder if this is a message in a way.
49:47 Yes.
49:48 even from like the same like side angle of that first album.
49:51 You know, when that first album came out, I had ended up putting it off
49:55 for like 6 months cuz I went through that massive
49:58 giant heartbreaking thing in 2016.
50:00 And I remember my 21st birthday and thinking
50:03 around like I'm going through this at 21
50:05 and like people are smacking me around like
50:08 I'm in my 30s and I'm like like basically
50:10 a kid experiencing this and still had to thug
50:13 through releasing that album cuz the label was
50:15 like we've held off for so long like
50:18 you we're behind you let's just press the button.
50:20 I had fully been like I never want to be seen in public ever again.
50:24 I never want to go outside.
50:26 I was experiencing so many mental health issues and I moved to New
50:29 York and all these things were happening and touring the album was rough.
50:33 It was like having to get up every day and face
50:35 so many fears that people were just completely unaware of.
50:38 And to be able to like say, I wish I could go back and like
50:43 this person could tell that person in that cover like,
50:46 yo, you're about to do it.
50:47 Like not just in a career way,
50:49 but you're going to be okay and you're going to thrive
50:50 and you're going to have a family and you're going
50:52 to you're going to be taken care of and you're
50:54 going to be mentally well and you're going to be like,
50:56 yeah, not just surviving, but really thriving.
50:59 Like, I'm really glad that she Yeah, she gets to do this in this way.
51:03 And it's I shot this artwork twice.
51:06 This is the second option.
51:08 The first one we shot and it just felt it's a brilliant photo.
51:13 The photographer is brilliant.
51:14 The the art it's it's out of this world.
51:16 We went to Paris to shoot it, but I started looking at it and being like,
51:20 I don't know if this reflects the honesty in this music.
51:23 I don't know if this sounds like what I'm looking at.
51:27 Yeah.
51:27 And so I went back.
51:28 I said, I think I have to cut my hair.
51:30 I don't have any hair under here.
51:32 Let's be very clear.
51:32 I'm baldheaded.
51:34 But what keeps happening is I keep getting
51:36 By the way, I don't have any hair under here either.
51:37 Look at us bald.
51:40 Boom.
51:41 I keep like dying it and shaving it again.
51:43 But it's so refreshing to just be bald.
51:45 Boom.
51:46 Look at us bald.
51:47 I just had to do it.
51:48 I had to do it for Sweet Sexy Savage for sure.
51:52 Yeah, it's emotional.
51:54 Yeah, it's really beautiful.
51:54 It is a beautiful tribute.
51:56 And you know what else?
51:57 Some of these songs are the first times I've been back in the room
52:02 with Pop and Oak at the same time as a production duo since that album.
52:06 That's crazy.
52:07 And we were all sitting around looking at each other like,
52:08 "This is so sweet, Sexy Savage.
52:11 Recorded in Philadelphia.
52:12 Milk Studios coded.
52:13 Like, it's so cool.
52:16 I'm so happy for you, mate.
52:17 Thank you.
52:18 You know, we don't know each other well, but we like each other." We do.
52:22 And I'm just really happy that you're here and you're in such a good place.
52:24 Um, thank you.
52:25 We're fast forwarding to unlearn a really another special
52:29 a kind of a a prayer of self-acceptance and understanding of what's important,
52:33 sending a message to others, but also very much to yourself.
52:36 Yeah, for sure.
52:38 It's, you know, when you hear love by music soul child and they always say,
52:43 you know, if you replace love and that song with God,
52:46 then it becomes a gospel song.
52:48 and to have be able to do something like this and kind
52:51 of live my big R&B gospel at the end of the album dreams.
52:55 Um, it was really cool.
52:57 And funny little Easter egg there is as I was working on this song in one room,
53:01 Ryan Leslie and Chris were working on songs in the other room and I was like,
53:05 "Guys, I really need a choir.
53:06 If y'all could just come into the studio with me real quick." So randomly
53:09 in that choir moment at the end somewhere in there Ryan Leslie is like tucked
53:14 amazing and low key like and his friend and his friend's girlfriend
53:17 like everybody the the engineer everybody was in the room just like Yeah.
53:21 singing in the song and supporting.
53:23 Yeah.
53:23 And it it was so fun to do.
53:25 I have background vocals from some of my friends in there just
53:29 you hear the male vocals just like getting so spicy at the end.
53:32 And it's a song that I feel like my 19-year-old self
53:35 would think is like the best song in the whole world.
53:38 So, speaking of your 19-year-old self, um,
53:41 can we just on the way out the door just give an extra special shout
53:43 out to your homie Alysia Lou in the Bay Area that you guys are like living.
53:49 Yo, Oakland is on fire.
53:52 Serious.
53:52 I mean, always has been.
53:52 Like, we knew it, but it's really cool.
53:55 Hieroglyphics.
53:55 Shout out to Shouts to the crew.
53:57 Uh-huh.
53:57 Shout out to literally everyone.
53:59 Yeah, everyone.
53:59 We always knew, but it's really cool when
54:02 we're having a moment and like everybody's like,
54:04 "Yo, in every facet of the industry right now, like we're super up."
54:07 I just love the fact that that that yourself and her took it home immediately.
54:11 Yeah.
54:12 Like immediately.
54:13 It wasn't like, "We'll see you when we get back." It's like,
54:15 "Oh, we're already back." Yeah, for sure.
54:17 She used to literally skate at the Oakland Ice Rink
54:19 and we went to the same like high school for a second,
54:22 like art school across the street from the ice rink.
54:24 So, that was cool getting to nerd out about that.
54:26 And then we got to have her hometown celebration
54:29 and all the kids from the school were like
54:32 filled up the whole little like floor part of the celebration.
54:35 It was just it's so trippy having these full circle moments
54:38 and like really knowing it in the moment that it's happening.
54:41 Well, you're experiencing a threenerational thing going on there because you're
54:44 at a point now where your kid is seven and she's early 20s
54:48 maybe and you know you're maybe 10 years old or whatever and so
54:51 it's like and everyone is meeting in this beautiful place this commonality
54:55 ecosystem of just greatness right now.
54:57 So cool.
54:58 Uh Kani, I've had this this has been my favorite conversation we've ever had.
55:02 Me too.
55:03 And doesn't surprise me because you're in the best space you've
55:05 ever been and you've made the best music you've ever made.
55:07 So I I would have to work very hard to this up and I hope I haven't.
55:10 you have not.
55:11 Thank you so much.
55:12 It's been so lovely to see you and I just
55:13 wish you nothing but continued success and love in your life.
55:16 Thank you so much.
55:16 I appreciate it.