What Is Self Awareness? (Part I) | Rebecca Newberger Goldstein

0:00 Rebecca, how does your concept of mattering in your important book,

0:03 The Mattering Instinct, enrich our understanding of self-awareness?

0:10 Yeah.

0:10 Well, I think my um my notion of mannering

0:16 demands uh that we humans um are very self-aware.

0:24 So you know I I think uh being

0:28 aware of I mean there's consciousness right difficult

0:33 enough concept right um and then you know

0:37 there is you know being self-conscious you know having

0:41 some sort of concept um of the self

0:45 um but even there I think there are gradations

0:49 uh and you know that there can be um more and more robust notions of the self.

0:56 So I know, you know,

0:58 I've read the the studies on animals and some of them pass the mirror test.

1:04 Um, should I explain?

1:06 Yeah.

1:06 Yeah.

1:06 No, that's that's I did want to discuss that.

1:09 Absolutely.

1:10 Yeah.

1:10 So you know if you you you take say a chimpanzeee um

1:16 and or a gorilla and you put uh um certain birds you first you

1:21 have to um acclimate them familiarize them to a mirror you know uh

1:28 most them start think it's another animal and start attacking but some of them

1:34 gradually figure out that that is somehow related to them and then you

1:39 anesthetize the animal and you put a dot where they can see it,

1:44 you know, usually on their forehead and you and then show them the mirror.

1:49 some of them seem to see that this doesn't belong to them, you know,

1:55 and they start trying to rub it off and and so

1:58 um uh and it's it's hard to say exactly what this means,

2:06 but but for uh many animal behaviorists, this is showing that, you know,

2:11 some who who do react to that have some sort

2:15 of concept of the self as a thing that has certain features.

2:19 features that either belong or don't and they sort

2:21 of recognize that this feature does not belong to them.

2:24 I mean, it's, you know, it's hazy because uh hard to know what's

2:29 what's going on in an in an animal's mind, but um so, you know,

2:34 that there's there's that kind of self-awareness, you know, a low bar.

2:39 Um, for us it's it's it's something so much more uh robust,

2:45 more um uh complicated uh to be aware of ourself

2:51 and to regard oursel um you know as as as somewhat

2:54 from from some distance from being able to sort of step

2:57 outside and you know what kind of a creature am I?

3:01 I mean when you go to therapy for example

3:04 you're trying to discover you know what are my motivations?

3:07 what you know what do I really want and you know oh and you

3:10 discover things about yourself oh I keep I keep getting into the same kind

3:14 of relationship where I'm person doesn't treat

3:18 me well that because I don't feel it

3:20 I'm deserving of this better treatment you

3:22 know so that this kind of um selfawareness

3:27 of which we're capable some of us more than others um is uh is

3:34 I think uh uh but but some level of that kind of self-awareness where you

3:39 can think of yourself from outside

3:40 as an object of interrogation and discovery um

3:45 and uh is required in order for this mattering instinct to get off the ground.

3:53 And if you then assume that we have a mattering instinct,

3:57 then that forces you to have uh self-awareness as a property of mind.

4:05 Exactly.

4:05 Yeah.

4:05 Yeah.

4:05 So now we we're using two terms we've used.

4:09 You've used self we've used self-awareness.

4:11 Yeah.

4:11 Uh and you've used self-consciousness.

4:13 Self-consciousness has a um a connotation in a narrower sense of uh uh

4:19 you know I I'm sort of don't want to be seen in some way.

4:24 But we're not using it in the narrow sense.

4:26 We're using it in the in the in the larger sense.

4:28 Right.

4:29 And and there's also another term self-reflection uh which seems

4:32 to be a high a d a second order approach to self-awareness.

4:40 Yeah.

4:39 So how do you articulate these terms uh from a mattering perspective?

4:44 Yeah.

4:44 So you know I the way I I think of self-awareness is is uh you

4:49 know some sort of concept of the self which animals can have and then you

4:54 know those who pass the mirror test you know perhaps have it um and um

5:01 uh self u consciousness is same sort of thing you know to be able to look

5:08 at one's self um what selfreflection um I I think of as you know

5:16 as a very distancing stepping outside of yourself

5:20 um and where everything is kind of up

5:23 for for for question why am I this kind of creature and uh what's going

5:29 on here and how do I um uh how do I justify various aspects of myself um

5:37 in in Tom Nagel in his in his uh article the absurd which I think

5:43 is uh it's very unusual especially when it came out was a very unusual article

5:49 for a analytic philosopher to have published

5:52 because he was trying to understand the ex

5:55 uh the existentialists and their notion of the absurd

5:59 but in the process he goes through an analyzing exactly what what I mean

6:04 by this kind of most distancing selfreflection where

6:09 in some sense being yourself which means

6:12 caring ing about yourself that is very fundamental

6:15 to our uh being our self um can strike one as odd as as kind of absurd

6:23 um and and and calling for something you

6:26 know calling for some something uh from ourselves.

6:29 And I think that this is um what he

6:34 was uh locating was what I call this existential dimension.

6:38 I mean he used it to try to explain the existentialist.

6:42 I would use it very very broadly to explain us to explain all of us.

6:49 Um the existentialists um reacted to it in their own existential way.

6:55 Um which is interesting.

6:57 Uh their mattering uh project what I call a mattering project.

7:02 What we are motivated to do in order to try to justify

7:07 ourselves to ourselves after we encounter this strangeness of being ourselves.

7:11 Their mattering project was to live in the face

7:14 of this absurdity constantly to constantly be aware of it.

7:18 And that's what you know that's what defined this movement of existentialism.

7:22 But that was their particular way of of reacting to it.

7:27 We all have our ways of reacting to it.

7:30 Um I think uh that that it is essential to being human.

7:35 Does self-awareness or self-reflection the uh

7:39 higher order level require a theory

7:41 of mind where you have to uh uh understand that others

7:46 are seeing you as they see you and their minds or can

7:52 those characteristics be totally self generated without a theory of mind?

7:59 Yeah.

7:59 No, I actually think it is uh generated from a theory of mind.

8:05 Yeah, I think so.

8:06 Yeah.

8:06 Yeah.

8:07 Um you know, which we can explain

8:09 scientifically why we have this theory of mind.

8:12 Uh but it is developed at such a capacity

8:15 for us uh that we can actually turn it on ourselves.

8:18 I mean that's the really interesting move

8:20 that we make and we turn it on ourselves.

8:23 Um and uh and we are in a in a very privileged position to um observe our own

8:32 self-mattering really pops out at us really is

8:36 you know almost to pounded into our very identity.

8:41 So can we say that we can imagine that consciousness itself does

8:46 not require a theory of mind because it can be completely internal.

8:50 You know, Buddhist monks can meditate in such a way where everything disappears.

8:55 Even the self disappears, but they still have this raw awareness

8:59 or raw pure consciousness as as they may say.

9:02 Um, but when you add

9:06 the self-reflection of self-awareness or self-consciousness,

9:09 then you must have a theory of mind.

9:11 Consciousness itself could could exist without a theory of mind.

9:15 Conscious certainly, you know, certainly.

9:17 I you know I I believe that you know most animals are conscious without

9:22 a theory of mind and um you know but the the the Buddhist monk is

9:26 sort of interesting because the whole mattering

9:29 project of trying to transcend yourself right

9:33 is I would say motivated by the same mattering instinct that we all have right

9:38 you know and so so you know getting to that state of pure consciousness

9:42 and getting past your own ego takes an awful lot of work discipline all of it

9:48 motivated by yeah you know what is how do I justify myself to myself

9:54 by getting totally past my now that either

9:57 sounds circular or self-defeating I'm not sure [laughter]

10:05 so if if if let me take it one step

10:07 further so if I'm a Buddhist monk and I've I'm I'm

10:09 I'm trying to eliminate the self devoid of self and have

10:13 that pure awareness but from a mattering instinct point of view.

10:17 That's my motivation.

10:19 That's where I'm found.

10:20 I'm a transcender or heroic or that that's my mattering project.

10:26 So, by eliminating the self,

10:28 I am fulfilling my my mattering instinct of of the kind that I am.

10:35 Yes.

10:35 And it is I mean it's it's sort of you know and I the way I

10:40 always think about this is you know um

10:43 you know the the the Buddhist meditator uh you

10:48 know getting past his ego is not his life goal is not going to be satisfied

10:54 by somebody else you know the next guru

10:57 and the next mountaintop getting past his um his ego.

11:01 No it's his ego [laughter] that must be gotten.

11:04 So you know just to be engaged with one's life

11:09 and to have you know a a [laughter] a project that keeps you

11:13 going and that you know clearly this Buddhist mattering project demands

11:19 so much discipline and meditation and energy and attention and I mean

11:25 magnificent powers right I'm not up to it [laughter] nor I um but uh is is to is

11:34 to be motivated by that original manner and instinct.

11:39 Um, so it's yeah, you know, and it's interesting because there's

11:43 something like it that goes on, you know, with with Spinosa, you know,

11:47 a philosopher that I've studied and and and some sense try to follow.

11:51 Um but but it it's also he's also

11:54 preaching a kind of getting past yourself you know

11:57 to identify with just you know in this state

12:01 of amore intellectualis the intellectual love of god um

12:07 with with reality itself you know um when I

12:11 told my husband about spininoza in the beginning he

12:13 said oh he was the first um what is he called jubu or buju what I don't remember

12:20 because yes it It it is something like

12:22 Judaism and Buddha a Jewish person who's a Buddhist.

12:25 Right.

12:25 Exactly.

12:26 Which is some say not not contradictory.

12:29 Right.

12:29 Not contradictory.

12:30 Right.

12:31 Right.

12:31 Right.

12:31 Right.

12:32 So um yeah but but I would say you

12:36 know nevertheless that human um self-mattering is there at least

12:42 as a motivation and an ongoing motivation um to to keep

12:48 ones going in in this heroic struggle to get past oneself.

12:53 It's yes there's something um slightly paradoxical about it.