The Hidden Cost of an Unexamined Mind (And How to Finally See It Clearly) | Dr. Paul Conti

0:00 So much of what happens inside of us is just automatic

0:03 and a lot of that can be defined by negative things.

0:06 Dr.

0:07 Paul Conti Medical doctor and psychiatrist, [music] expert in treating trauma.

0:11 How much identity is really formed before we even have conscious memory of it?

0:15 If there are very significant experiences that are

0:17 [music] traumatic in those really young years,

0:20 it can start to shape the lay of the land.

0:23 We carry that lesson with us.

0:26 My brother died by suicide many, many years ago.

0:30 I was young.

0:31 I had a very naive views of the world.

0:33 Life is a lot harder than I had imagined it would be.

0:36 Hold on one second.

0:39 The boundaries of [music] how I can even think

0:41 about it are kind of set inside of me.

0:44 We have [music] a couple of isolated facts and then we create a story.

0:50 Once the person attaches to that story, the story moves forward with them.

0:53 And now we start making a myth of self.

0:57 I'm almost in a straightjacket [music] because I can't move

1:00 out of this this place where I find myself inside.

1:03 I haven't had eight different bad [music] relationships.

1:06 I've had the same relationship eight times over.

1:09 Your mind doesn't want you to be unhappy.

1:13 Right?

1:13 You It's your mind.

1:14 It's your [music] friend, but it's easy for it to get confused.

1:18 There's this thing that you can do even of stopping and saying Dr.

1:27 Paul Conti First off, happy birthday.

1:29 I heard it's [laughter] today.

1:30 It is today.

1:30 It is.

1:31 Thank you.

1:31 I appreciate that.

1:32 Yeah, I Thank think your work is so important and needed now more than ever.

1:37 I think when we assess the physical health of one's body,

1:41 it's much more easy to observe.

1:43 You know, someone has a broken arm,

1:45 they're in shape, you can measure their heart rate.

1:48 When it comes to our mental health, often it's way more ethereal,

1:53 more subtle to assess and assert um, status of one's mental health.

1:58 And so, I'm just curious to start off,

1:59 how do you think about What is an effective

2:03 way to assess one's current state of mental health?

2:06 Yeah.

2:06 Yeah.

2:07 I don't think it has to be more difficult to do it with mental health

2:10 than it is for physical health because we

2:13 have a way of understanding our physical health.

2:15 Like we all know that we have a heart

2:17 and lungs and muscles and joints and, you know,

2:19 we understand that there are these components of physical health and we

2:22 can look at them and we can either look to see

2:24 where a problem is if something isn't going the way we

2:27 want it to or how we can build strong physical health.

2:30 And I think we can do the same for mental health.

2:33 It doesn't have to be so, um, confusing or ethereal.

2:37 I think that we can understand that that we all have a brain and the brain

2:41 has a mind and the mind has similarities

2:44 across human beings just as our bodies do.

2:47 So, by understanding that there's a structure of self that each of us

2:50 has and there's a function of self that each of us has,

2:53 we can do the same thing in analogy to what

2:56 we do for physical health for mental health and it

2:58 doesn't have to be less accessible to us than

3:01 understanding our physical health and building good physical health is.

3:04 Hm.

3:05 Paying attention to your work over the past few years,

3:07 it seems like there's this progression,

3:08 at least with your new book and the work of understanding,

3:12 looking through the rearview and through reflection,

3:14 what were the formative experiences that shaped our psyche,

3:17 the unconscious, the subconscious,

3:19 and then what can we focus on now that has this generative drive that's like,

3:23 what's going right and to and to examine that as well.

3:26 And so, to start a bit more with the part

3:30 of the iceberg that's under the water, so to speak, um,

3:33 when we think of the self and we think of the psyche,

3:37 we're often speaking about the personhood,

3:41 the personality we're looking at life through as if it's a lens.

3:44 And oftentimes, societally widespread,

3:47 we don't really give time and weight to examine, um,

3:50 the experiences that shaped that person that now we just assume is who we

3:54 are and is our identity in which we engage with all life and relationships.

3:58 Um, how do you articulate the differences between the conscious,

4:03 subconscious, and unconscious mind?

4:05 Yeah.

4:06 Really, the the differentiation we make is unconscious versus conscious.

4:10 Subconscious gets used sometimes, but it's basically under the water,

4:14 the part of the iceberg that's under the water,

4:15 which is unconscious, and the part that's above the water,

4:18 which is the conscious mind.

4:19 And so, so much more is underwater,

4:23 and that's the unconscious part that sets the boundaries for us.

4:27 So, so for example, if I'm saying negative things to myself all the time,

4:31 I'm changing the lay of the land inside where,

4:34 if for example, a new opportunity comes my way,

4:37 the ranges of responses that I may have to that is already kind of set,

4:42 and and I'm more likely to look at that in a negative way,

4:45 or to look at it in an avoidant way, or in a fatalistic way.

4:49 Oh, it won't work out for me, right?

4:50 The the the boundaries of how I can even think about

4:53 it are kind of set inside of me through the unconscious mind,

4:57 which is why it is so important

4:59 to understand ourselves and to realize that, for example,

5:02 what we're saying to ourselves,

5:03 what we're telling ourselves about ourselves is so

5:07 important because it sets the range of possibilities.

5:11 So, if I go from negative self-talk and I start talking

5:14 to myself in a way that's that's more honest and more constructive.

5:17 Like, okay, here are some of the things I'm up against,

5:19 but here are the good things that I bring to bear, right?

5:21 Here's how I've made I allowed myself to take

5:24 advantage of opportunities in the in the past.

5:26 Here's some of the good things that I've done.

5:27 Then, if an opportunity comes my way,

5:30 the range of possible responses is shifted inside of me.

5:34 So, the unconscious mind kind of sets the lay

5:36 of the land inside of us because so

5:39 many things have to happen so quickly for our conscious

5:42 mind to then navigate on top of that.

5:45 Yeah.

5:47 I think this has been getting increasing attention

5:49 over the past 5 10 years because you know,

5:53 Jung is quoted I believe until you make the unconscious conscious,

5:57 it'll rule your life and you'll call it fate.

5:59 Right.

5:59 And it can be a painful realization to see the trajectory that our life

6:03 was set out for before we were even able to consciously make that decision.

6:08 Um now when we're speaking about the unconscious

6:11 and sort of the internal motives that are beneath

6:14 our conscious level of awareness of having the ability

6:17 to really articulate why we do what we do.

6:19 We just feel this pull towards different things.

6:21 How much of that is shaped before we even have conscious memory of it,

6:25 you know, before the age of seven?

6:26 How much in your experiences has identity

6:28 really formed in that early uh childhood state?

6:31 I mean, a lot gets laid down then, but it's not deterministic.

6:36 You know, meaning if there are very significant experiences,

6:39 say they're traumatic,

6:40 in those really young years, it can start to shape the lay of the land.

6:45 So, in a way that maybe a person is more defensive and avoidant, for example.

6:50 But sometimes if there's been trauma and the trauma is understood and addressed,

6:55 there can be a resilience that comes from that, too.

6:57 So, even having negative experiences in those initial years,

7:01 it doesn't determine anything about us.

7:04 What it says is that if we're not understanding it,

7:06 if we're not able to think about ourselves

7:09 and investigate ourselves to bring compassionate curiosity to ourselves,

7:13 then a lot goes on in us that is just automatic.

7:17 So, so that's kind of the the negative part of it, right?

7:19 To say if I'm not really looking at myself and thinking about myself,

7:23 a lot that happens inside of me is automatic

7:26 and a lot of that can be defined by negative things.

7:29 But if I can be reflective,

7:30 if I can understand myself and bring myself to bear, I can start to change that.

7:35 So, if I'm telling myself a negative story about myself,

7:38 I can look at that and understand.

7:40 It's like, why am I doing that?

7:41 Maybe that's some reflex of a lesson I learned

7:44 a long time ago that isn't real or true.

7:47 You know, someone or people around me saying negative things about me,

7:50 and then I take it inside, and I start saying those things too.

7:53 And if I realize that, I can change that story inside,

7:57 and then it can shift the lay of the land where I'm no longer sort of almost

8:01 in a straightjacket because I can't move out

8:04 of this this place where I find myself inside,

8:07 which can be a negative place or a restricted place.

8:10 But by looking at that and understanding,

8:12 we can sort of take the straightjacket off and say, "Hey, I can, you know,

8:14 I can move around here wherever I choose to." It's very empowering,

8:19 and that's the other side of the coin is understanding brings empowerment.

8:24 That word that you used,

8:25 which is compassionate curiosity, I think is really important.

8:28 I think it's quick, easy to look back into our past

8:31 and the experiences that shaped us with a lot of shame,

8:33 guilt, fear, regret, remorse.

8:35 Yes.

8:36 Um Do you want to speak a little bit more into that?

8:39 How like that that curiosity,

8:40 like it it leaves the door open in a little bit of a sense

8:43 where we're not so sure about what we make of the experiences.

8:47 We just that openness allows us to be

8:49 able to work with it more closely and intimately.

8:52 Yeah.

8:52 Yeah.

8:53 It allows us to look at ourselves with the same open minds

8:56 and the same compassion that we would bring to someone else, right?

9:00 So, if you tell me about difficulties in your life and something

9:03 that may have been hard and and gotten you into a negative place,

9:06 you know, then and you know, I'm likely to hear that with a sense of compassion.

9:10 I'm interested in you.

9:11 And oh, how did that happen?

9:12 And and like, how can we understand and and bring that understanding to bear,

9:15 and you can shift and change.

9:17 But if it's me, right?

9:18 I tend to have a very different outlook,

9:21 and we tend to say negative things to ourselves,

9:23 and then to kind of not want to look

9:25 because we're afraid of what we're going to find.

9:27 Right?

9:27 So, so it's that that kind of feeling of being on the back foot of Doctor,

9:31 if it's about me, there's probably something really bad.

9:34 There's probably something I'm really not going to be able to change.

9:36 Like th- these uh then these are things that aren't true, right?

9:39 But, it comes from from the lens of fear in us,

9:42 and the fear comes from not understanding.

9:45 You know, human beings want to understand things.

9:48 And And if we don't, understandably,

9:50 we become afraid, we become confused, we become intimidated.

9:53 But, this idea that we can bring this compassionate curiosity to ourselves,

9:57 just like we would in a good-spirited way to someone else,

10:01 and then we can understand.

10:02 We don't have to be afraid of what we're going to find.

10:05 You know, we're not going to look inside and find something awful

10:08 that tells me I can never have the things that I want.

10:11 It's the fear of that that makes us look away,

10:14 and that sometimes creates self-fulfilling prophecies.

10:16 You know, if there are negative patterns going on in me over and over again,

10:20 and I don't look at them, it's likely that's will continue to go on.

10:24 Then I say more negative things to myself, and then I get more down on myself,

10:28 and I feel more hopeless about myself, and then at the end of the day,

10:31 nothing has changed,

10:32 but I could have changed it all along if I'd been empowered to look at myself

10:37 and and to to sort of bring that courage and that compassion and that ingenuity.

10:42 Like, all of us can think about ourselves and say,

10:44 "How do I bring change?" Because I want the things that I want,

10:47 and I can guide myself in a way that maybe I wasn't even

10:51 aware of before if I was just kind of hiding away from myself.

10:55 Would you say that's the core mission of your work?

10:57 Is just like that belief that change is possible?

11:00 Mhm.

11:01 How would you articulate your mission these days?

11:03 I've sort of always thought about this about this way.

11:05 And I sort of say it more now, you know, I work with a group of really good

11:09 people at Pacific Premier Group in Portland, Oregon.

11:11 And we all work together, and we send people out, and people come in to us,

11:15 and I'm often thinking, like, what is it that we're doing?

11:17 And it's kind of solidified inside of me

11:19 that we're in the business of empowerment.

11:22 And And knowledge brings empowerment.

11:24 So, that's mostly what we're doing is we're

11:26 we're we're being collaborative with someone of, "Hey,

11:29 let's sit and think together,

11:31 right?" In in a way that brings our curiosity to bear,

11:35 so that we can help you understand more

11:37 about yourself and use that understanding to say, okay, what is it that I want?

11:40 What do I want to change?

11:41 What am I striving for?

11:43 And how do I get myself there?

11:45 And it's that empowerment that brings along with it agency.

11:48 Agency is the exercise of empowerment.

11:50 So, if I might say, shift from a place

11:52 of feeling behind the eight ball and and, you know,

11:55 and feeling down and feeling on the back foot,

11:57 and I shift to a place where I think,

11:58 no, like I can bring understanding to bear.

12:00 In fact, I am understanding things and bringing change now.

12:03 So, I know that I can do more of that.

12:05 Now we're on the front foot,

12:07 and it's that empowerment inside that lets us exercise agency and say, no,

12:11 if if I've been going two steps to the left,

12:13 now I I I understand and I'm changing it,

12:15 and I'm going to go two steps to the right.

12:17 Now, and once we do that, now we start the ball rolling in the right direction,

12:21 and once we start making healthy changes,

12:23 then becomes easier to make more healthy change.

12:26 Yeah, and as a clinician, your your role in those settings is to really be

12:29 able to effectively assess the state of one's mental health.

12:32 How would you articulate what the constitution or components of a healthy self,

12:38 like an individuated healthy self versus a self that's maybe less so healthy.

12:43 What are the qualities that that person or that mind would imbibe?

12:47 Mhm.

12:48 Well, if we look at the the structure of self and the function of self,

12:52 and we say, okay, this is our analogy to physical health.

12:56 So, this is like saying, if you're presented with a physical health problem,

13:00 we'd say, okay, well, let's take a history, right?

13:02 Let's do a physical exam.

13:03 We might want to get some labs.

13:04 There's a process to understand and say, hey,

13:07 if your body is out of balance, you're having a pain somewhere, for example,

13:10 let's understand that, and there's this method so that we

13:13 can understand it and we can bring you back into balance.

13:16 We can do the same thing through the structure

13:18 of self and the function of self and the components there,

13:21 so that we can help to bring a person back into balance.

13:24 So, if if already in balance, make that balance stronger.

13:28 And what sits on top of that is this empowerment that lets us exercise

13:33 agency and a sense of humility and and humility isn't what it may often seem.

13:39 It's the opposite of arrogance, right?

13:40 Very often humility is just letting myself be human, too.

13:44 And to say, "Hey, if I've had problems or there things

13:47 that haven't gone exactly as I as I want them to, you know,

13:50 I'm I'm human and it's okay that that's happened

13:53 or it's okay if I've made mis takes, right?

13:55 What my responsibility to myself is is to bring myself to bear

13:59 and not get so down on myself as if I'm not

14:01 allowed to be human or I'm afraid of myself and I'm afraid

14:05 of the world because I've I've been human and I've made mistakes.

14:07 And and if our structure of self and function of self are are in balance,

14:12 then we have the empowerment that gives us agency

14:15 and the humility that lets us act through gratitude.

14:18 And agency and gratitude are like this.

14:20 If we're acting, we're interfacing with the world through agency and gratitude,

14:25 then we're we're in balance in the broad scheme of who we are.

14:29 And what this means is our drives are in balance.

14:31 So, there's an assertion drive in all of us and a pleasure drive in all of us.

14:35 And the pleasure isn't just hidden as in make it be the pleasure of knowing,

14:39 "Hey, I'm doing okay in the world.

14:40 I've got a good roof over my head.

14:41 I have good friendships around me."

14:43 And when we're asserting ourselves in the world

14:45 in a healthy way and we're getting pleasure from what we're doing,

14:48 really our lives are governed by the generative drive.

14:51 And that's the drive in us to make the world around us better than we found it.

14:55 It's the It's the spirit inside of us that drives

14:59 literally the species forward and each of us forward.

15:02 It's what lets us do things that we don't get any credit

15:04 for, like offering somebody a hand up when no one else is watching, right?

15:08 Or creating art or music just for the sake of creating art or music.

15:12 Doing a nice turn for someone just cuz it feels

15:14 good and we like that it makes it happen feel good.

15:16 If the generative drive is governing us,

15:18 that's that's the ultimate manifestation of us being in balance.

15:23 And just as we can understand our bodies

15:25 and our physical health and know when we're

15:27 being robust and healthy and we're setting ourselves

15:29 up for the future in a good way,

15:31 we absolutely can do the same for our mental health.

15:34 Mhm.

15:35 Could you like zoom in on someone's personal experience?

15:39 So, the assertion drive and the pleasure drive,

15:41 what are those for anybody who's listening right now that they can

15:43 identify a behavior in their life that are being stemmed from those two?

15:46 And then I want to examine the generative drive after, but Yeah.

15:49 Yeah.

15:50 So, classically, it's been thought that human beings have just these two drives.

15:55 But if there were only assertion and pleasure,

15:57 it doesn't explain at all how we're still here.

16:01 Right?

16:01 Without a desire to make the world better,

16:03 without altruism, for example, the species would not have survived.

16:08 So, we have these two classic drives of assertion and pleasure,

16:12 and they have optimal ranges.

16:14 So, it's not that more is always better.

16:17 So, for example, too much assertiveness and and people become over-controlling.

16:22 Right?

16:22 Too little assertiveness and we just don't you make an effort in the world,

16:26 we don't put ourselves forth.

16:27 So, so there's an optimal range and that'll differ for people.

16:30 Some people are because of a combination of genetics,

16:34 of nature and of nurture, early childhood and throughout the lifespan,

16:38 some people are just built or have built themselves

16:40 in a way to have a level of assertion that's higher range.

16:44 So, it's not an exact point,

16:45 but maybe it's higher on the range of how assertive that person is going to be.

16:49 So, this could be somebody like asserting

16:50 they want a certain thing for their life,

16:53 um just asserting themself amongst their peers.

16:57 Um how how else like would that show

16:59 up that assertive drive in someone's life practically speaking?

17:01 It it'd show up as we're as we're going after our strivings, right?

17:05 So, so for example, if if I want to do better at my job, for example,

17:10 I could say, "Okay, you know, I'm going to I'm going to apply myself more.

17:13 I'm going to use more of that assertion drive.

17:15 I'm going to work harder.

17:16 I'm going to study more.

17:17 I'm going to be more collaborative.

17:19 So so therefore I'm I'm more likely

17:22 by applying myself more to get better results.

17:24 But again, if I decide no, I'm just going to apply myself 24/7, right?

17:28 Now I'm neglecting my health.

17:29 I'm neglecting my relationships.

17:31 So so there's an optimal range and when

17:34 we're in that range where we're healthfully asserting ourselves,

17:36 where strongly asserting ourselves.

17:38 It's not too much, but we're doing justice by ourselves.

17:41 It's not too little.

17:42 So maybe some of what I have to give I I leave on the table, right?

17:45 It's not too little, it's not too much.

17:47 Then we're in a healthy range where we're

17:49 being active in the world around us and instead

17:52 of being passive and like the kind of world

17:54 happening to us or life happening to us,

17:56 we're on the front foot and we're guiding life forward.

17:59 And the same thing is true with the pleasure drive where we

18:02 want to get happiness and gratification from the things that we do.

18:06 So if I work hard, I want to be able to feel good about that.

18:09 I want to be able to get good

18:09 feedback and maybe I'm rewarded with a raise, right?

18:12 I want to feel good.

18:13 I want good things to come back to me.

18:15 If I crave too much of that, then I might get covetous.

18:19 It may be that now I want too much money.

18:21 I want to get paid more and more and that's going to make

18:22 me feel better about myself and I and I neglect other things, right?

18:25 Or if we're not getting a lot of pleasure, then you know,

18:29 we just don't feel good about what we're doing and we lose our incentive to try.

18:32 So both assertion and pleasure, they're different ranges in each person,

18:37 but we want to see here what is that range for me in each of those drives

18:40 and how do I run on the higher end of where that range is for me.

18:45 And that's been really classically understood in in humans,

18:48 but we're just getting we're moving it another step forward by saying okay,

18:51 what sits underneath of it in the structure and function

18:54 of self and what sits on top of it, which is the generative drive.

18:59 So now what sits on top of it?

19:01 I mean, the way that you've articulated it sounds

19:03 like these are the more benevolent aspects of human beings,

19:06 the ones that drives us towards the sense of cohesiveness and coherence in life.

19:11 Uh as fundamentally creative.

19:14 Um Because again, it can often times

19:18 when the self-reflective and examination towards self

19:21 can go too far where it's like not taking into account the the natural

19:26 proclivities of how your intelligence wants

19:28 to express itself and the and the draw

19:30 you have towards supporting community and um

19:33 your creative endeavors in life externally.

19:36 So, uh why is that such an important thing to focus on and is it big theme

19:40 in your new work and your new book that you

19:43 think is so underlooked and and often needed right now?

19:47 Mhm.

19:47 Mhm.

19:48 It's the generative drive that really makes us human.

19:52 It's the generative drive that lets us

19:55 do things that someone else hasn't done before,

19:57 whether it's a how someone sings or how someone is kind to the person next door

20:02 to them or how someone brings ingenuity

20:05 to their job or to a relationship and they say,

20:07 "I'm here and there's something about me that's unique.

20:10 No one else is like me and I want to be in this world

20:13 and I want to express myself and I want to be felt in this world,

20:16 not just in way that asserts myself and gets what I want,

20:19 but in a way that makes the world a better place." So, an example,

20:22 we could look at the creation of art or I write in the book

20:25 about a person who was on a beach in uh there there'd been

20:30 a storm that passed and the waves were very very heavy and the person

20:33 sees that there are people out in the water who are really in trouble.

20:38 All right.

20:38 And and that person just takes clothes off,

20:41 strips down to the boxer shorts and jumps into the water

20:45 and and like really risks himself to to help other people,

20:49 to rescue other people.

20:51 And you look at that, you can't explain that by a desire

20:53 to like assert yourself in the world, you know?

20:56 That that would have been much safer to stay on the beach and and assert himself

20:59 in a in a different way that maybe served his own

21:01 life as opposed to risk losing it or to say,

21:04 "Oh, that person wants the pleasure of being able to help someone else.

21:07 I mean, this is what classical theory has said,

21:10 and it just doesn't make any sense

21:12 that there are parts of us that are altruistic,

21:14 that are creative, that want to make the world around us different.

21:18 And that might be you growing flowers where there was just dirt, or, you know,

21:22 bringing something bringing cookies to the person next door who doesn't,

21:25 you know, who's lost family and doesn't have anyone.

21:28 And where there's this is what's in us that leads us

21:30 to be more than just scrambling for survival all the time.

21:34 And if you look at what's beautiful about humanity, what what do we value?

21:37 We we value what we create.

21:39 We value painting and music and, you know,

21:42 the the the structures that we create and the gestures we show to one another.

21:47 That this is our humanness and it's that that it's the best part of us.

21:54 And when it governs governs our lives,

21:56 it drives us towards not just success, but success in achieving happiness.

22:01 And then and happiness it's an it's a it's

22:03 a word that can mean many many things.

22:05 If if you look at how have people been happy throughout the lifespan?

22:09 People have been able to find peace, contentment, and delight.

22:13 And it's the generative drive that guides us towards this happiness.

22:17 You know, peace being I I can just find

22:19 times when I don't have to think about anything.

22:21 There's nothing on my mind.

22:22 There's nothing weighing on me.

22:23 There's nothing I have to do.

22:24 I can just be and I can feel okay.

22:28 I can feel good.

22:29 Contentment is when I'm aware of my life.

22:31 I'm aware of the facts in my life.

22:32 I'm aware of the challenges and the tragedies in my life.

22:35 I'm aware of the strivings and the achievements in my life and I feel okay.

22:39 I feel good about life and the life that I'm leading.

22:41 And delight is really the capacity for delight that we can

22:44 still as adults be delighted by things as we were as children.

22:49 And all studies that have looked at people and what makes happiness in people,

22:53 it's peace, contentment, and this capacity for delight.

22:56 And all of that is governed by the generative drive.

23:00 Why would somebody's generative drive be different

23:03 in in one case versus the other?

23:05 Like the creative impulses that are unique to us,

23:07 what are what's the origins and and reason for that?

23:11 Probably varies genetically just like many many things in humans.

23:16 So so our genes don't dictate anything about us, right?

23:20 They they just dictate probability ranges.

23:23 So so some people have a capacity for a very high generative drive.

23:27 You know, we see people who are like, "Wow,

23:29 like that person is doing five amazing things at once,

23:31 right?" And it's not that all of us have to be that way.

23:34 But we may have a slightly lower capacity for a generative drive,

23:38 but that's okay, too.

23:39 If I can if I can get up and lead a good life today and be good

23:42 to myself and good to others and and do

23:45 something good in the world around me for other people.

23:47 Like that's a reason to to feel like this has been a successful day.

23:51 Right?

23:51 We don't all have to have a generative drive

23:53 that's running at the highest end of the range.

23:55 But what we want to do is cultivate as much as we can in each of us.

24:00 It's not like the assertion and the pleasure drives where too much is not good.

24:05 Too little is not too good.

24:06 The generative drive more is always better.

24:09 Too much is never enough, right?

24:10 Because it's a drive towards goodness, right?

24:13 It's a drive towards social harmony.

24:15 It's a drive towards giving to other people which

24:18 always leads us to give back to ourselves as well.

24:21 More of that is always better because it's sort of the goodness

24:23 in our lives which feeds in a good way into absolutely everything else.

24:28 Now earlier you mentioned that the generative drive sort of is

24:31 born from the balance of a healthy amount of the pleasure

24:35 and assertion drives and that those give a sense of humility

24:40 um which leads to gratitude and empowerment which leads to agency.

24:45 I would just like to zoom in on a couple of those aspects a bit more.

24:47 So humility I think has this often wrongly attributed notion of sort of uh

24:54 meekness or like um uh sort of like negating of self for others.

25:02 Um and I'm just curious,

25:04 how do you articulate what humility is and the importance

25:06 of it for the for a healthy psyche?

25:08 Yeah.

25:09 Yeah.

25:10 I often say selling yourself short or not saying

25:13 you're great at what you're great at is not humility.

25:16 Mhm.

25:16 So, you go, hey.

25:18 Well, it's either ego or or falseness, right?

25:20 If if a person says, "Wow, I'm not very really very good at that." Why?

25:25 It's not egotistical to say, "Yes,

25:27 I am great at that." Here and recently talking

25:30 with a a person who's a professional athlete, right?

25:32 He says, "I know, I'm pretty good at this." So, I'm like, "No,

25:35 you're great at it." It's not arrogant

25:38 to say that that that one really has skills, talents, abilities that we have.

25:43 So, so that's false humility, which people will do sometimes in order

25:47 to to to lessen themselves compared to someone else.

25:51 Right?

25:51 And it may be someone else who doesn't feel good about

25:53 themselves and doesn't want that person to feel good about themselves.

25:55 Whatever the reason may be, selling ourselves short isn't humility, right?

26:01 And and yes, humility can be the opposite of arrogance,

26:04 but that's not what we're talking about.

26:05 In the vast majority of people, it is not that.

26:08 It's that we often don't have the humility to let ourselves be human and to say,

26:13 "Look, I I I make mistakes or gosh, I really messed that thing up,

26:17 but but I've got to pick myself up and I've

26:19 got to instead of beating up on myself about it,

26:22 I've got to say, "Okay, I'm human.

26:23 I make mistakes, right?

26:24 And I'm going to get back to the game.

26:26 I'm going to get back and I'm going to do

26:27 a better job this time." One might think, "Well,

26:30 how is that humility?" But it's the humility

26:32 to let ourselves be human and to say, "You know, I'm human, too.

26:35 I I make mistakes.

26:36 I'm struggling in a world that is often very very difficult to navigate.

26:40 I have a right to move forward instead of beating

26:42 up on myself or hiding myself away because there are things

26:46 about my life that I don't feel great about

26:48 or that didn't go the way that that I wanted them to.

26:51 So, it's humility that that along with empowerment lets us be

26:56 in the world in a real way because we're letting ourselves be human,

27:00 but we're being empowered humans.

27:04 A quick one.

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28:16 Sleep deep.

28:20 Yeah, it seems like you've drawn a clear

28:21 distinction between our ability capacity for vulnerability and humility.

28:26 And I know you've written and talked about how you grew up in a household,

28:29 which I don't think is uncommon for many,

28:31 where there was a bit more resistance to, especially as a man

28:34 in the culture in which you were raised in the family and household,

28:38 um where expressing or exploring your feelings and emotional world wasn't

28:42 like uh rewarded as a good thing per se, you know?

28:46 Um Or even recognized as Yeah.

28:48 something people could do.

28:50 Right.

28:50 I think that so many people can resonate

28:53 with that, especially a lot of men, you know,

28:55 there is sort of the more that you can just suck it up

28:59 and move on, the more you're seen as like a man, you know?

29:02 Right.

29:02 And I'm just curious what you think about that as it's

29:06 directly linked to our lack of fulfillment and the you know,

29:11 offspring of the contentment and delight

29:14 and peace that we have the capacity for.

29:16 Yeah.

29:16 Yeah.

29:17 We have to confront the lessons that we learned when

29:20 we were younger and decide what we think about them now.

29:25 So, like a lot of people, men and women, but as it said,

29:28 it's more often men who learn that feelings are for the weak.

29:33 Right?

29:33 And you should be embarrassed or ashamed of having feelings.

29:36 All it's going to do is stand in your way

29:38 and it's not manly or whatever it may be.

29:40 And then we learn to be ashamed of having feelings.

29:43 And again, I see so much of this in men and women.

29:45 It's in everyone.

29:46 That there's a sense of shame that oh, I have feelings inside of me, right?

29:50 And if those feelings are distressing,

29:52 like I need to stop and think about something,

29:54 I need need to stop and cry about something,

29:56 I need to stop and talk about something,

29:58 that that means there's something wrong with us.

30:01 And when we learn that when we're young,

30:03 we don't get a chance to answer the question.

30:05 So, this is connect us back to the unconscious mind.

30:08 If it's automatic in me that if I

30:10 have feelings or negative feelings or sad feelings,

30:14 that that I should equate that with shame and not being manly,

30:18 that's going to happen before I have a chance to decide about it.

30:21 It's automatic inside of me.

30:23 Right?

30:24 So, what we have to do is then challenge that and say,

30:27 to be self-aware is to say, "Whoa,

30:28 like something really difficult just happened and I just want to stop

30:32 and kind of compose myself or I might feel tearful and like look,

30:35 like I I already feel ashamed of that." Right?

30:38 So, okay, that's that's automatic.

30:40 Like I didn't decide.

30:41 There there were elements in my upbringing.

30:43 Some of it was good, some of it wasn't good, but this is inside of me.

30:46 And right now, I'm going to stop and say I feel this shame inside of me.

30:50 But but like I'm not accepting that.

30:52 It's like it's okay that I feel this way.

30:54 Right?

30:54 Then we let ourselves have the feelings that we have,

30:57 and it doesn't mean the next time we won't have a triggered or reflexive shame,

31:02 but it means it's a little less powerful.

31:04 It occurs a little bit less quickly.

31:06 We have a little bit more time to to intervene.

31:09 So, this is how we kind of reprogram ourselves.

31:12 It's to be aware of what's happening in us in a reflexive way,

31:17 and the shame about having feelings is just a great example of that to notice

31:21 that one has negative or sad feelings

31:23 and that to notice that you immediately become ashamed.

31:26 That knowledge is very very powerful.

31:31 And it's powerful because it gives us direct insight into where

31:35 on some level we're not okay with meeting reality fully,

31:38 and some level where there's an unconscious drive still running the show.

31:43 And again, we talked about this earlier, it can be painful to realize how a lot

31:48 of what we thought we were living our life

31:50 as this conscious conscious agent is really being colored and distorted

31:55 in so many different ways we're not fully privy to.

31:58 Right.

31:58 And um And so, when those come up, how do you I mean,

32:02 you you just gave a bit of insight into it,

32:04 but when we find those triggers in life, right?

32:06 We sometimes spiral it and build momentum onto it by being shameful,

32:11 you know, having shame about what we were ashamed of.

32:13 Right.

32:14 Um how how how can we meet those triggers fully

32:18 in a way that's actually fruitful and like you know,

32:21 transforming the energy and not just get stuck in those cycles?

32:24 Yeah.

32:25 The combination of compassionate curiosity

32:27 and self-determination is incredibly powerful.

32:31 So, the the compassionate curiosity is just to notice that.

32:34 So, if I notice, as I have through my own therapy over the years,

32:38 that oh, if I have negative or sad feelings, I immediately feel ashamed.

32:42 Now, I can be curious about that and say, "Well,

32:44 where did that come in to me?" And then I

32:47 can go back and look at the lessons of childhood.

32:49 And I could say, there were a lot of good things about my upbringing,

32:52 and a lot of things I'm grateful for.

32:54 And there were also things that weren't taught to me in the healthiest way.

32:58 So, I want to go look at that and say,

33:00 "Hey, some of those lessons that I learned of like,

33:02 be nice to people, open the door if someone's behind you." You know what?

33:05 I want to keep that with me, right?

33:07 But to feel ashamed of myself and weak because I have sadness in me,

33:11 like I don't want to carry that lesson for me.

33:14 And And I say this often,

33:16 each of our brains is more complex than the most powerful supercomputer.

33:20 But also, our brains don't do very simple things that old computers would do.

33:25 Where, you know, you'd you'd reboot the computer and it finds patches, right?

33:29 Our brains don't do that.

33:30 We don't wake up in the morning and our brain reboots and we say, "Oh, right,

33:34 that lesson that I learned when I was a kid isn't right." No,

33:37 we carry that lesson with us.

33:39 So, we have to be intentional about it.

33:41 We have to go back and look and say, "Look,

33:43 I don't want to carry that forward with me anymore.

33:47 I'm not going to feel ashamed that I have feelings.

33:49 It's not what I communicate to the world around me.

33:51 It's not what I want my children to understand about the world around them,

33:54 and I don't want that inside of me." Now,

33:57 I can use self-determination, which might say, if immediately,

34:01 if I become aware that I'm not sharing sad feelings, say, and and you know,

34:06 it's really been driving my mood down,

34:08 or it's been driving some unhealthy behavior, alcohol use, risk-taking, right?

34:12 And I say, "Well, why is that happening?"

34:13 It's not because I'm having sad feelings,

34:15 cuz that makes it well, sad things are happening in my life.

34:18 I'm having I'm having sad feelings.

34:20 It's not that that's driving me down.

34:21 It's that I'm hiding it.

34:23 Right?

34:23 So, now I can link, right?

34:25 That like, I'm worried I'm getting depressed,

34:27 or now I'm getting down on myself cuz I'm drinking too much.

34:29 And these are examples where we can say, "Gosh,

34:31 that could really spiral in a negative direction." Or you could say,

34:34 "That unhealthy behavior that I'm looking at, right?

34:37 It's coming because I'm shoving down

34:38 these negative feelings because I'm ashamed of them.

34:41 Right?

34:41 We don't really feel ashamed of them.

34:43 So, I'm going to let myself feel them.

34:44 And maybe I'm going to call a good friend I can talk through.

34:46 I'm going to let myself sit here and cry." And now

34:48 that tension inside that drives the unhealthy behavior isn't there.

34:52 Now, instead of a downward spiral, what we're starting is a is an upward spiral.

34:57 And and that's a combination of compassionate curiosity and self-determination.

35:01 We start leading much more examined and intentional lives.

35:06 That's great.

35:07 I would love to zoom in a bit more on the structure of self.

35:12 It's sure.

35:12 Fascinating how we have these formative experiences often

35:16 throughout childhood and going into adulthood where in many

35:20 ways like we encounter an experience that surpasses

35:22 our ability to process it and be with it emotionally.

35:26 And then we make meaning of it.

35:27 And like that emotional impact stays with us.

35:30 And I've found it so interesting setting like neurologically

35:33 how reconstructive memory occurs and how we have an event,

35:38 we have our perception of that event which is

35:40 already detracted from what actually happened to some degree.

35:44 And then we keep on reconstructing the memory

35:47 from our last the last time we memorized it.

35:49 And it it's it's so funny because like we our identity is shaped by so many

35:55 of these experiences which our memory of that thing

35:57 very much so is different to how it actually occurred.

36:01 And the meaning that we then for have given to those experiences shape our life,

36:05 shape our destiny in so many ways.

36:08 And so, when we look at the structure of the self

36:10 and the memories that are formed that structure the self,

36:14 I'm curious what insights you have into how

36:16 those memories are formed and fused with identity.

36:19 And then of course that goes into our experience of ourself.

36:23 Um but yeah, how do you how do you kind of think of how

36:25 the structure of self and our and our memory interplay as they build.

36:29 Mhm.

36:29 Mhm.

36:30 You know, very often what we do is we have a couple of isolated

36:35 facts and then we create a story that doesn't have any grounding in reality,

36:43 but we accept it as true.

36:45 So, just like the old games where you you know,

36:48 you'd put out a a couple of words or phrases

36:52 and then a person will put a story together.

36:53 So, we could say um girl new school no friends.

36:58 Okay, we could say now now let's make a story out of that, right?

37:01 And but very often that's what's going on say in the person's mind

37:05 and then the story that they create is a story that's negative towards the self.

37:10 So, I'm the girl and I went to a new school and I wasn't popular,

37:17 no one liked me and I didn't fit in and because

37:20 of that I didn't have any friends and and things didn't go well.

37:23 Okay, it's a story.

37:25 Right?

37:26 But once the person attaches to that story

37:29 which often happens when the person is very young,

37:31 then the story moves forward with them

37:34 and the story starts to take on additional meaning.

37:36 You know, I really shouldn't go new places

37:38 because people do don't really like me, right?

37:41 I have to stay with the people who who I have friendships

37:44 with because I'm not going to be able to find new friends.

37:45 That can come out of that story.

37:47 That's why I went somewhere new, I wasn't good enough to have new friends, etc.

37:52 And now we start making a myth of self.

37:55 And very often that story that was put together just from facts,

37:59 not from the the flow and what they mean, right?

38:03 Then becomes a myth of self and and that is very very problematic

38:08 because we then don't go back necessarily and and check that and say,

38:12 "Hey, is that really true?" Right?

38:14 And the idea of bringing compassionate curiosity to our life

38:18 narratives is also of the highest level of importance.

38:22 So, what if we go back and we look at that story and we say,

38:25 "Well, okay, that girl went to a new school.

38:29 Arrived mid-year and there were really difficult circumstances and it

38:32 was a small school and there were a lot

38:34 of cliques and people weren't really behaving well and there

38:36 wasn't a lot of supervision." And then you can say,

38:38 "Well, the story could be different as that girl went to a new school

38:41 and it was a very difficult environment

38:43 and she got through that year anyway." Right?

38:46 She got through that year and then the next

38:48 year things got a little better and she made a couple of friends and some

38:51 of those friends are still with her in her life.

38:53 Maybe that's the true story.

38:54 More often that is the true story.

38:57 But, the story that we've carried forward

38:59 and made into a myth is the false story.

39:02 And you might say, "Well, why would we do that?

39:04 You know, do our brains secretly not like us, right?

39:06 Do our unconscious minds like really want us to be miserable?" And no,

39:10 the story is around creating safety.

39:12 Because, you know, the the child doesn't have the ability to to think,

39:16 "Well, well, what's really going on here?" Right?

39:18 They don't have the brain capacity we do as adults.

39:20 So, so that child will often look at just

39:23 the most obvious answer in front of them.

39:25 Like, "I don't have any friends.

39:26 I'm I'm not good enough and no one likes me." Right?

39:29 It's just It's just the reflex of of what's right in front of the person.

39:33 And that It's a narrative we bring forward that we

39:37 can go look at and challenge and say, "You know what?

39:39 I I want the truth.

39:40 What actually happened then?

39:42 What have I carried forward with me?

39:43 What myth have I created?

39:45 What really happened then?

39:46 What I want is truth." And we're always after truth.

39:50 The idea of having a new and different life narrative, for example.

39:53 It's not about finding something that feels better, right?

39:56 Or something that maybe um if you use it that way,

39:59 it can help you make better decisions.

40:01 No, what we're doing is looking for truth.

40:04 And very, very often the truth is so,

40:06 so much better than the myth that we've carried forward.

40:10 And and it could be, you know, men don't get sad or men only only weak men cry.

40:14 And And like that's true, right?

40:16 Why?

40:16 Because I carried the myth forward, right?

40:18 So, if I say, well, I'm weak because I cried when I was a a child,

40:22 you know, you can go back and revisit that and say, well, when did I cry?

40:24 Like, I got hurt here.

40:26 Like, gosh, I remember this or that.

40:27 Like, that seemed like anyone would cry because of that.

40:29 You know, maybe that's not true, this lesson that I learned about myself.

40:33 And I built a narrative or myth on top of it and I'm

40:36 going to revisit that and through the lens of agency and gratitude,

40:40 through the lens of a healthy self, I'm going to decide what that narrative is.

40:44 Mhm.

40:44 What are your favorite tools for externalizing

40:47 those internal narratives and stories that we built?

40:50 Uh what are some of your favorite tools that that you recommend out,

40:52 you know, outside of therapy?

40:54 Right.

40:54 Right.

40:55 Generally, we have to put it into words.

40:57 So, you know, we can think about something over and over

41:00 again in our in our brains and not get anywhere, right?

41:03 And almost all of us, we've had this experience, right?

41:05 Like, gosh, I've been thinking about that for, you know,

41:07 2 hours now or on and off for 3 days.

41:10 I'm not getting anywhere.

41:11 Well, that's because when that's happening, we're not really thinking about it.

41:15 We're not bringing our whole brain to bear

41:17 and it's just kind of pinging around inside of us.

41:20 But, if we do it in a different way, for example,

41:22 if we write that down or if if we speak words to another person,

41:27 different parts of our brain come online.

41:29 So, parts, for example, that are involved in error checking, like,

41:32 oh, is that really true or what does that really mean?

41:35 So, instead of having things knock around in our minds,

41:38 which is often how we get into negative self-talk,

41:41 then that negativity of that thing I

41:42 can't solve knocking around in my mind becomes,

41:46 "Oh, what the hell is wrong with you that you can't fix that?" Or, you know,

41:48 that's what what becomes you know,

41:51 the the mantra over and over again in our in our minds.

41:54 So, we can go and look at that and say, "Whoa,

41:57 I don't want that just pinging around inside of me, right?

42:00 I want to gain some control over this." And by putting it into words and saying,

42:04 "I'm going to write What is this thing I'm telling myself over and over again?

42:06 I'm going to go write that down." Or, "I'm going

42:08 to sit down with this friend of mine or, you know,

42:11 or a partner, a family member, whoever.

42:13 I'm going to sit down with someone I'm going to talk about this.

42:15 This is the compassionate curiosity.

42:17 Sometimes it's thinking, but a lot of times it's that next step to getting it

42:21 outside of us because that's very often how we can bring you know,

42:26 a new light of knowledge, gain new insight,

42:28 become more intentional, gain agency that we didn't have before.

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43:39 Catch you on the next one.

43:44 That's great.

43:44 I'm I'm curious how you think of I

43:48 love the articulation of awakening up versus growing up.

43:52 So, waking up a bit more spiritual of the contemplative meditative

43:55 practices that sort of see through thought as a permanent structure entirely.

43:59 Right.

43:59 Um and then the growing up is like we have a self,

44:02 there's a personality that needs um an individuation process,

44:07 and one without the other is incomplete.

44:11 Um I'm just curious how you personally think about

44:13 cuz you really support people improving the story of self.

44:18 Um how much do you also examine seeing through the story of self entirely?

44:24 Meaning, you know, we can see this body, it's physical in nature.

44:28 Of course, the mind is much more subtle, a bit more ethereal.

44:33 And any thought we have, idea, story of our self,

44:37 it it it exists in a in a certain sense, but in a fundamental sense,

44:41 we can't say that it's permanent

44:43 and exists cuz it's always susceptible to change.

44:45 And I think that's what like Buddhism and a lot

44:47 of these contemplative traditions like help us see is

44:49 the uh the impermanent nature of all of these stories

44:53 and uh fundamental identities that we think are real,

44:55 but in essence are sort of empty.

44:58 Um so, how do you think about the improving the story

45:00 of our life versus seeing through the story as a permanent structure entirely?

45:05 Yeah.

45:05 Yeah.

45:06 Well, I find that whole concept very, very uplifting.

45:09 I What it says, I think, is if I don't examine myself and examine my life,

45:15 then there's a lot in me that just happens automatically.

45:18 And I end up being driven by these automatic things.

45:21 Right?

45:21 The next one thought leads just to the next.

45:23 And I have a response to the thought, and that guides you one way versus another

45:26 and I'm very then predictable in what I'm doing.

45:29 And you know, a lot of that's going on in my life now.

45:31 For most of us, a lot of that is going on in our lives in some facets of life.

45:35 We can say, "Why does that have to be so negative or daunting?" Okay,

45:39 so well, look at the opportunity there.

45:41 Right?

45:41 There's so much I can bring to bear to be more intentional about

45:45 life and to to stop and think why I'm thinking what I'm thinking,

45:49 why I'm feeling what I'm feeling.

45:51 You know, we can bring a whole self to bear

45:53 that observes ourselves and is curious about what's going on in us,

45:57 and we don't have to be afraid of that.

46:00 You You and and and I think that's what leads us down one path versus another.

46:04 If we're not empowered to say, "Hey, I can bring knowledge to bear.

46:08 I can understand and I can use that to bring the change that I want,

46:12 to to make it more likely that I'm going to get the things that I want,

46:15 that I'm going to be happier in my life

46:17 from from more from one day to the next." Like, I want to go do that, right?

46:20 And I don't have to be afraid of what I'm going to find,

46:23 like I'm going to find some terrible mystery and mess that's me,

46:26 that's that's dark and twisted, and I don't know what to do about it.

46:29 Like, that doesn't happen, right?

46:31 And people If people are dark and twisted,

46:33 like there's already an element that that knows.

46:34 They're not watching this podcast, right?

46:36 So, we we don't have to be afraid of what we're going to find inside of us.

46:40 And even if we find something that we don't like,

46:42 you know, if we find that says, "You know,

46:44 I don't feel good about myself and I want to be healthier,

46:46 but like, I'm really not doing anything about it." Right?

46:49 It's like, "Okay, that doesn't have to be scary.

46:50 We can go look and why is that?" Right?

46:52 Why is it?

46:53 Or if I say, "You know, I am I I used to be nicer to people and there

46:57 was a time I was just more thoughtful and more considerate,

47:00 and sometimes I'm getting on myself because, you know,

47:03 I'm more sort of more brusque or rude." I can say, "Okay, you know what?

47:06 That can be true about me." And again, here's the humility of I can accept it.

47:10 Like, I see that myself.

47:11 It's not pretty and it doesn't feel good to see, but you know what?

47:14 I can see it anyway and then and and I can make change.

47:17 I don't have to be afraid of what I'm going to find,

47:19 which doesn't mean we're just letting ourselves off

47:21 the hook and pretending everything's great all the time.

47:23 It means we can bring ourselves to bear to change

47:27 what's going on inside of us if we don't like it.

47:29 It's It's very empowering and we don't

47:31 have to be afraid of looking at ourselves.

47:34 That's how we change parts of our narrative and sometimes

47:37 we change the whole narrative of our of our lives,

47:41 the whole framing of self arises from that, which is big

47:44 part of why what I do for a living is really fun.

47:47 You know, people often think, "Oh, it must be unpleasant and gosh,

47:50 you're always talking to people of miserable

47:51 things that can't bring any change." I think,

47:53 "It's not like that at all." Right?

47:55 Like, it it can be a fun I mean, it has its hard work and it has

47:58 times that it's sad or distressing, of of course.

48:01 But by and large, it's it's fun to do

48:04 because people can bring change to their lives, get happier.

48:07 We we really see the the progress towards the health that we're seeking.

48:13 It sounds like that excitement for your work is

48:16 probably born from your ability to actually get results.

48:20 You know, if you were just going into your office

48:22 every day with the understanding that you're just diagnosing people,

48:26 handing them pills, and sending them out the door,

48:28 it's like, how effective is that, you know, up for debate.

48:31 But I'm just curious,

48:32 what are your gripes with the traditional model of mental health assessment,

48:36 diagnosing through the DSM, and uh Yeah, where does that fall short?

48:43 I think the field of mental health has strayed very,

48:46 very far from a position at the table of human leadership.

48:51 And and a position that would be helpful

48:53 to the people that the field is supposed to serve.

48:56 We've stepped away from prioritizing understanding.

49:00 You know, the the DSM is a very, very big, thick book,

49:05 and it's got enough diagnoses to have a whole bunch for me

49:07 and a whole bunch for you and a whole bunch for everyone else.

49:10 And and I understand there is an importance to labeling, right?

49:13 There are things that happen as syndromes.

49:15 They come together, and we want to be able to understand what that is.

49:17 I'm I'm not against having a taxonomy, a a labeling of things.

49:21 But what we've done is we've taken that and we've glorified it.

49:25 And that becomes the be-all and end-all, you know?

49:28 That book says nothing whatsoever about how things actually arise.

49:33 All it does is describe things.

49:36 So, it doesn't tell us how to understand them.

49:38 It doesn't tell us how to intercede.

49:40 And the field now has stepped so far away that what it's

49:44 by and large doing is trying to fit in to the world of modern medicine,

49:49 which which on a broad level isn't going so well.

49:53 So, we're just looking to identify well, what might these symptoms tell us?

49:56 So, so if I'm sitting down I don't have much time

49:59 with you like let me just ask you a whole bunch of questions,

50:01 whole bunch of questions and now like you know what I determine

50:03 you check a bunch of boxes and you fit into the depression category.

50:06 Okay, I've got 6 more minutes left, right?

50:09 How let's see I've I'm going to give you a medicine

50:10 cuz I'm not going to talk to you very much.

50:12 Let's see how we can try and and make

50:15 those symptoms less and then we'll say your depression is treated.

50:18 Like that's not real.

50:20 Right?

50:20 And I'm not saying there isn't a place that there is

50:22 a place for medicines in in some people in some cases.

50:25 It's important.

50:26 There's a place for real therapy that's driven by understanding and and there

50:30 are people in the field like good people who are trying to do

50:34 good work but very often the systems make it very hard to do

50:37 that and then the training paradigms are very much about identify symptoms,

50:41 try and make symptoms less and that has nothing to do with understanding,

50:47 with getting really to the roots of something so that you can bring real change.

50:51 We're we're kind of out at the end of the branches trying

50:53 to snip things and make things look a little bit better instead of saying,

50:56 "Hey, if we go down, if we invest ourselves in going down to the roots,

51:00 now maybe everything is better and we don't have to be out at the branches now

51:04 for for years upon years trying to stave

51:06 off symptoms of the of the deeper problem." Mhm.

51:10 I think a big theme for why a lot of people start getting interested

51:15 in this work and examining self is because the things we thought we wanted,

51:21 we have either gone after or maybe even

51:25 achieved and accomplished and found a fundamental sense

51:28 of emptiness and it wasn't what we thought

51:30 we were going to feel once we got there.

51:32 Certainly in the case with high achievers.

51:35 And uh you you meant you referred to this examining like

51:38 the things that we're striving for earlier and it seems like

51:43 so much of what we want is being informed by unconscious

51:48 drives that we're not fully aware of and in privy to.

51:52 Um I think you gave an example of this patient, Ben, in your book.

51:57 Um and this is the case that so many of us, you know, face.

52:00 And and I'm just curious how you examine and think about what we want,

52:06 what's worth wanting, and uh yeah,

52:09 and just the difference there between the genuine desires that are

52:14 being like have a generative component towards our life that are

52:17 going to be that are true to who we are

52:19 and how we want to express ourself and connect with the world,

52:21 and the the ones that are sort

52:23 of masquerading as noble virtues that are really being,

52:28 you know, driven from a fear of being like your dad, for example.

52:31 Right.

52:31 Right.

52:32 This is where, you know, I want to anchor again to how it

52:35 can be fun to play detective with ourselves, right?

52:40 And and it can be fun to do it with someone else that we're trying to help.

52:42 So So very often, the link between what we're driving

52:46 at and what we're doing has been lost along the way, right?

52:50 So So someone who doesn't feel satisfied about life,

52:54 they don't feel good about their life, and they keep wanting to earn more money,

52:58 and and they'll feel better about themselves.

53:00 This is not uncommon in the society around us.

53:02 So they're they're trying to earn more money

53:05 because it's linked to feeling good about themselves, right?

53:09 But is that is that really the way

53:11 the person is going to feel good about themselves?

53:13 At some point, society tells us we should feel

53:15 better about yourself if you if you're earning more money.

53:17 We say, "Okay, let me attach We attach something to that.

53:21 Now, we we think we should feel better about ourselves.

53:24 So the person that is working and earning more

53:27 and not feeling better about themselves and wondering like,

53:29 "What's wrong with me?

53:30 What am I doing wrong?" Um if we go and we stop and we look at that, we can say,

53:34 "Okay, let's take a look at that.

53:36 It's okay to be striving occupationally.

53:38 It's okay to want to earn more.

53:40 But if we set that up to be something that it isn't, right?

53:43 Like is that what the person was was really thinking when they

53:47 they said I want to I want to have a good life.

53:49 I want to do good in the world.

53:50 What what was that linked to?

53:51 And there may be something else that's that's overlooked, right?

53:55 Very often there are other things people end

53:57 up doing something in the community around them.

53:59 I can think very very recently of a a woman who is now

54:03 she's doing some tutoring with with kids who are really having a hard time.

54:08 And and you think how's that changing her life?

54:11 Well, it's a direct human to human contact, right?

54:15 That that it gives her something that she can see the impact

54:19 of her being a good person in the world and giving something of herself.

54:22 Like at the end of each of those hours she's with that person.

54:24 She sees that and she knows that.

54:26 It doesn't mean that she doesn't

54:27 want to strive financially and strive professionally.

54:30 She's still doing all of those things, which is like, oh right,

54:32 that's not the one measure of how I'm building happiness, right?

54:37 And she didn't get to that through greed or through arrogance.

54:41 She just got to it through life is complicated and it's hard.

54:43 I often think it's like you're being strapped

54:45 to the front of a fast car that's accelerating, right?

54:48 It's moving very fast around us.

54:50 But when we stop and examine,

54:51 here we see someone who's very happy with her career

54:54 and her success and all that is good in her life, but it wasn't everything.

54:58 And she had to see like there's something I I have to do where where

55:01 like there isn't anything that comes back

55:02 to me other than knowledge that I've done something.

55:05 Right?

55:05 And and now you see, oh let's add that component.

55:07 So she's understanding herself better along the way that the education

55:12 and learning and fortitude of the professional is important.

55:15 But gosh, there's another dimension of her life

55:18 that she wasn't paying as much attention to.

55:20 Then when we start asking questions about that, we see,

55:23 oh like this is someone who did

55:24 a lot of volunteering like back in college, right?

55:27 And she's never even thought about that, you know,

55:29 she didn't think about it until we talked about it, right?

55:31 And other times in her life where, you know,

55:34 she would she kind of to away from the things

55:36 that were important to do something good for someone else.

55:38 And we see this is run through her life.

55:40 It's just at some point in time the pressures

55:43 of life she sort of lost sight of it, right?

55:45 And now she has it back again and she has a more full sense of self,

55:49 a happier life one day to the next.

55:51 And with this is also preventive medicine, too.

55:53 Now she knows like don't let that go in my life.

55:56 Like that part is very important to me.

55:58 I have to maintain this this balance cuz this is how

56:01 I'm taking care of myself and moving myself into the future.

56:04 It's just an example of how

56:05 the know thyself and bringing compassionate curiosity, looking at our history,

56:09 looking at the automaticity and it's looking at our life narrative.

56:12 This is so empowering and that agency and gratitude then

56:16 lets us take ourselves down if we choose entirely different paths.

56:21 Yeah, there is I mean conversation with Gabor Maté where for the I

56:25 remember him mentioning the difference between like the feeling of being

56:28 called towards something in life that has a sense of inspiration

56:32 and like a lightness to it versus being driven in by something.

56:35 It's like the all the shoulds within us.

56:37 And often like the the things we're being driven by are usually

56:40 tied to some sort of historical unconscious event that's stored within us.

56:45 And um it sounds like the former is way more fruitful,

56:48 you know, by listening to the things we feel genuinely called towards.

56:51 And it sounds like that's what the generative drive essentially is.

56:54 Right.

56:55 Right.

56:55 And the the wording So it was cuz we're using the same word but just to clarify,

56:59 it's the generative drive that governs all.

57:02 And the generative drive is beckoning us to good things.

57:05 Right.

57:05 So when something from the past is driving us, we can say it's it's pushing us.

57:09 So you could use the same word but but that's different.

57:11 It's a push.

57:12 It's just so I I need to do that and I'll feel better.

57:15 And maybe that's true, maybe that's not, but it's a push towards something.

57:18 It's not saying, "Hey, like here I am and you know, I feel so grateful.

57:23 I I've health.

57:23 I was able to get out of bed today and and I'm in the world around me

57:27 and I have the capacity to make some difference."

57:30 And like what is it that I want to do?

57:31 I'm going to work very very hard today.

57:32 but you know what I'm going to do at the end of the day?

57:33 I'm going to get the sketchbook out, right?

57:35 I'm going to go call that person who I know I haven't called in a while.

57:38 Like just it's that that's beckoning us

57:40 towards what the rewards of life really are.

57:44 And when we talk to people who are older and they're happy and can say,

57:48 I'm happy with my life.

57:49 You know, I'm 90-something years old and I

57:51 know that I'm probably close to death, but that's okay with me.

57:54 Look at the life that I've lived.

57:55 Like there are people who say this, who feel

57:57 this way and can express it quite quite eloquently.

58:00 And when they talk about their lives, this is what they're talking about.

58:03 Right?

58:04 They're leading intentional lives.

58:06 They they have peace, contentment, the capacity for delight.

58:10 They know that there are things that haven't gone well,

58:12 but they accept that humanness in them

58:14 and they are very intentionally guiding their lives forward.

58:17 And when you step back and say, what's really running the show here?

58:20 What's governing everything?

58:22 It is it's always the generative drive.

58:25 How successfully in your life do you feel you've separated your internal

58:30 feeling of enoughness with the external outcomes and measures of your endeavors?

58:38 Not remarkably well.

58:39 Um and I I think I think I've done a moderately good job of it.

58:45 Um I haven't done a great job of it because it is very hard.

58:49 I think having built being built and having

58:51 been socialized in a certain way where I'm

58:55 attaching my worth to some external achievement

58:58 in the world around me being happy with me.

59:00 You know, I'm not entirely free of that.

59:04 Um you know, and it's hard then what do I want to attach that way?

59:08 Right?

59:08 I I want to have an impact on the world.

59:09 I want the world to feel good about what I'm doing.

59:11 Like some of that is legitimate and healthy

59:13 and some of it goes a little bit too far.

59:15 Um so it can be a slippery slope and I have a tendency to you know,

59:19 to to to push to places where I I I want that approval

59:23 and and then I just kind of feel good enough until the next thing comes up.

59:27 Now that being said,

59:28 there was a time in life where I didn't even understand that you know that I was

59:32 anything other than the you know than the boxes

59:34 or achievements I could that I could check.

59:36 And And I think it shows how working on ourselves is

59:39 a lifelong It is a lifelong we're lifelong projects and and that's okay.

59:45 I don't feel that you know cuz I'm 57

59:47 years old now and and I've had therapy for you

59:49 know how many decades now and I do

59:51 this for a living and and I'm moderately down that road.

59:54 You know, I could look at that and say that doesn't sound great, right?

59:57 Or or I could say no like this is

59:59 an okay place to be when I hadn't made progress

1:00:01 that was not an okay place to be and like

1:00:04 all of us I'm a work in progress and you know,

1:00:07 if someone figures out how we all live to be 400 years old,

1:00:10 I'm going to be working on that at year 390.

1:00:12 You know, and that's okay because I'm I'm working on it

1:00:16 and and by doing that and by being intentional and circumspect,

1:00:20 by bringing compassionate curiosity to myself,

1:00:23 I I feel good about the life that I'm leading.

1:00:25 I mean, there's stresses and disappointments and fears and all

1:00:28 of that, but I feel good about the life that I'm leading.

1:00:30 I feel good enough as a classic sense where we can feel good enough,

1:00:34 which doesn't mean limp over the line.

1:00:36 It's just solid approval where like hey, you're good good enough.

1:00:39 And we need to be able to tell ourselves

1:00:41 that and if we're doing that, we're doing pretty well.

1:00:45 Yeah.

1:00:45 Well, that's great.

1:00:46 I I appreciate that share.

1:00:48 I think so many of us can relate.

1:00:49 I certainly do.

1:00:50 I know a lot of people listening probably relate.

1:00:52 How often we collapse our success with the validation externally,

1:00:57 uh whether it's money, success, whatever it is.

1:01:00 And I know you work with so many prolific individuals,

1:01:03 celebrities, influencers, creators, business leaders,

1:01:07 uh musicians, and I think it's a big theme certainly with a lot of successful,

1:01:12 high-performing individuals is that often times

1:01:15 the things that drove us to that place

1:01:17 were either a fear of not being worthy or loved or Um yeah,

1:01:24 so it's fascinating to examine where that still lives within us.

1:01:27 Mhm.

1:01:28 It's such a persistent and enduring illusion,

1:01:31 delusion that our ideal life is someday in the future.

1:01:35 Like there'll be a point when I finally accomplish X, Y,

1:01:38 and Z and I will satisfy this unending hole within myself.

1:01:42 That will finally be enough, you know?

1:01:44 And it feels like also sometimes one of those lessons

1:01:47 that you need to learn the hard way.

1:01:48 Yeah.

1:01:49 Like it's it's how many bumper sticker quotes

1:01:54 do we need to say before, you know,

1:01:55 we we realize what a lot of these cliches are

1:01:58 saying about it being the journey and not the destination, etc.

1:02:01 Um yeah, I'm just curious what how often that that realization

1:02:07 needs to be met and experienced firsthand in someone's life before being,

1:02:10 you know, heard on a podcast and and finally get it.

1:02:13 Uh but yeah, it just seems like such a big theme for all of us.

1:02:16 Yeah.

1:02:16 Yeah.

1:02:17 I think to make this distinction, there's a difference between strivings, right?

1:02:21 Between striving for things and wanting things in the future

1:02:24 and the living our lives in the future.

1:02:26 Yeah.

1:02:27 Like, you know, this is not okay now and like things are off and out,

1:02:30 but I'm going to get there.

1:02:31 You know, that's not okay, right?

1:02:34 Saying, "Hey, I'm working I'm working in the present and there are

1:02:37 things I'm working towards that I

1:02:38 want in the future." That's entirely different.

1:02:40 We can do that while still living our lives in the only moments we are alive.

1:02:47 So, like we are not alive when we started this podcast.

1:02:50 We are not alive when this podcast finishes.

1:02:53 We're alive right now.

1:02:54 Yeah.

1:02:54 And and yes, there's a past we can remember

1:02:57 and hopefully we continue to move towards the future, but we're alive right now.

1:03:01 And and we very often can be confused about that.

1:03:06 And and oftentimes if we're worried about the future,

1:03:08 what we do is we use fantasy inside of us

1:03:11 to project out to a future that scares us or worries us.

1:03:14 And then we take it back inside of us as if it's true,

1:03:18 as if that's the truth in the future and we're

1:03:20 heading towards this and we have to be very,

1:03:22 very careful that taking care of ourselves and being prudent and striving

1:03:26 towards the future is not it's not a different thing from living

1:03:32 life in the present and and we can really lose

1:03:35 that and we we do it because we're trying to find safety, right?

1:03:38 Just like the person who didn't find approval in the new school thinks,

1:03:42 oh, I can't have any friends.

1:03:43 That's not cuz that person dislikes them.

1:03:45 The person's trying to keep herself safe, right?

1:03:47 So I'm going to avoid people where they would judge me and laugh at me.

1:03:49 We're trying to keep ourselves safe and and very often

1:03:53 that we're going to we're going to imagine everything that could

1:03:56 go wrong in the future and we're going to plan

1:03:58 for it and we're going to prevent it in the present.

1:04:00 We do that to try and keep ourselves safe,

1:04:02 but it creates endless misery in us and to live our lives in the present

1:04:08 while being cognizant that we're moving towards

1:04:10 a future we want to be healthy and strive.

1:04:13 It's a lot of it's a lot of work,

1:04:16 which is why of course we have feelings and of course

1:04:18 we make mistakes and of course we get confused.

1:04:20 It is kind of like being strapped to the front

1:04:22 of that fast car that is then accelerating.

1:04:24 Like it's really, really hard and it warrants the time

1:04:28 and the effort and the energy that we would put into ourselves.

1:04:32 And people will sometimes say, well, an hour a week of therapy or or I'm going

1:04:36 to write about myself for an hour a week or so.

1:04:38 It's a lot of time.

1:04:40 And then but it's our lives, right?

1:04:42 It's like saying, well, you know,

1:04:43 45 minutes a day in the gym make it me a lot of time.

1:04:46 It's our lives, right?

1:04:47 It's our minds and our bodies,

1:04:49 which really are one thing and we're worth the time, the energy,

1:04:52 the attention that for ourselves and and of course lo

1:04:56 and behold when we're taking care of ourselves that way,

1:04:58 we're better for the people we love, we're better for the world around us.

1:05:02 It's fascinating to examine how many of our behaviors

1:05:05 are being driven for a search of safety, whether it's through the relationships,

1:05:09 the type of people we look for when we date, um our career, all aspects of life.

1:05:14 And in that aspect, I'm I'm curious

1:05:17 how anxiety is actually like an adaptive response.

1:05:21 How is it How is it an intelligent system?

1:05:25 Um because from your perspective,

1:05:27 I just love to to hear that as it's obviously an epidemic, right?

1:05:31 We have the loneliness epidemics, we have this anxiety crisis,

1:05:34 and amidst a time where we have more external wealth,

1:05:38 abundance, and comfort, we have widespread internal poverty, so to speak.

1:05:44 And and so I'm I'm curious what your thoughts are on anxiety,

1:05:48 how it's a an adaptive response.

1:05:50 Yeah.

1:05:50 Yeah.

1:05:51 Anxiety can be adaptive, but the danger here is it's so,

1:05:56 so easily for it to be maladaptive.

1:06:00 Right?

1:06:00 So, anxiety is there in a way we can look at a way that it makes sense.

1:06:04 You know, if you say you see someone new and they seem to be

1:06:08 neutral and you walk towards them and they do something very aggressive, right?

1:06:11 Like, "Whoa." Right?

1:06:12 And you have to step back and maybe even get hurt, right?

1:06:14 Then let's say you see that person from a distance.

1:06:17 It makes sense to be anxious.

1:06:18 Right?

1:06:19 Something bad happened last time.

1:06:21 The anxiety that's raised inside of us is protective.

1:06:24 It says, "Yeah, if I see that person from 20 ft off,

1:06:26 something bad happened the last time we were 3 ft off, let me back away.

1:06:30 I'm I'm worried." Right?

1:06:32 That's how anxiety just an example of how anxiety makes sense.

1:06:35 But let's say someone is searching for a new relationship

1:06:39 and they they see someone you're to whom they're attracted.

1:06:42 They have They go towards them, they have a conversation,

1:06:44 and they ask the person out, and the person says, "No, all right.

1:06:46 You know, I have a partner or I'm not you know, I I you're nice,

1:06:49 but I'm not interested." Well,

1:06:50 now the person can say, "Ooh, that that that hurt.

1:06:54 It stung." So, then the next time that the person

1:06:56 sees someone who could be a relationship partner,

1:06:58 the person avoids that that person.

1:07:01 It's the same mapping to where something really aggressive happened, right?

1:07:05 But here we're we're misusing anxiety.

1:07:07 It's too much anxiety.

1:07:09 It's a we might be better off if we

1:07:11 could could say to ourselves something like this of hey,

1:07:14 it takes you know, you have to ask somebody out

1:07:16 a number of people out maybe before someone says yes.

1:07:18 So like it's okay if someone says no.

1:07:20 It's not it's not a litmus test on my value

1:07:23 as a person or as a relationship partner, right?

1:07:25 So So like it's okay that that didn't go the way I wanted it to.

1:07:28 You know, you know what I need to do is do it again.

1:07:31 And and if the next person says I'm going to go towards this person.

1:07:34 And if that person says no, then I'm going to do it again, right?

1:07:37 You know, this is different than where anxiety equates

1:07:41 to real threat and I want to keep myself safe.

1:07:44 Here the anxiety is I want to keep

1:07:45 myself safe from something that doesn't feel good.

1:07:47 You know, rejection doesn't feel good or if you feel ashamed if you're rejected.

1:07:51 So I want to keep myself safe, but as I said,

1:07:53 if we really want to keep ourselves safe,

1:07:55 we'd all we'd never get out from under the bed.

1:07:57 You know, let alone in the bed, right?

1:07:59 Each day.

1:07:59 So we we have to take some chances and well,

1:08:02 we want them to be smart chances, measured chances.

1:08:04 So So being aware of what we're anxious about, right?

1:08:07 Makes it a a very you know,

1:08:09 it it's really important cuz then the person could say, well,

1:08:13 you know, no one ever likes me and I

1:08:15 never meet anyone I could ask out anyway, right?

1:08:17 But it's really they they talked to one person, the person said no,

1:08:20 then they're trying to keep themselves safe so they don't ask anyone,

1:08:23 then they conclude there's no one to ask.

1:08:24 And but what if we could stop and look at that and say,

1:08:27 well, why do you feel that way?

1:08:28 Well, let's just let's just talk about it.

1:08:30 Like how do you why do you feel that way?

1:08:32 There's no one ever says yes, no one's ever interested.

1:08:34 Well, I and then they maybe say what happened, right?

1:08:37 And you say, oh, like it's natural to be anxious, right?

1:08:41 But but the anxiety is telling you to keep yourself

1:08:43 safe by avoiding any possibility of the thing that you want.

1:08:48 Right?

1:08:49 So so let's talk about how we can manage anxiety.

1:08:52 What are you feeling for example?

1:08:53 What what's your self-talk if you're walking towards that person that you

1:08:56 want to have a nice conversation with and maybe ask out, you know?

1:08:59 And And like, oh my god, the person's going to say no and I'll

1:09:02 never be able to show my head." You're like,

1:09:03 "That's not fair." Like, it's not fair.

1:09:04 No one can be beat their best then.

1:09:06 You say, "Hey, I'm taking a little bit of a chance.

1:09:08 I don't know what will come of this, but like it's not a litmus test for me.

1:09:12 Let me just bring my best self, and it's okay.

1:09:14 And if things don't go well,

1:09:15 I'll try and bring a little humor to the situation." Now,

1:09:17 we're managing anxiety.

1:09:18 It's not that there's no anxiety, but I put it in its place,

1:09:22 so it's not disabling, where I just can't go forward because I don't understand.

1:09:26 All I know is that I'm anxious.

1:09:27 And in order to keep myself safe, I'm going to avoid the anxiety.

1:09:31 You know, that's that's not good.

1:09:32 That's how we create self-fulfilling prophecies that, "Well,

1:09:35 there's no one for me to go out with." Right?

1:09:37 Because my anxiety is making me avoid everyone who would go out with me.

1:09:40 If we imagine how powerful, and this happens like in real life,

1:09:43 understanding that then leads that person to be able to tolerate inside, right?

1:09:47 To have an inner world that lets them be less anxious,

1:09:50 and now engage in different behaviors.

1:09:52 And those behaviors are much more likely to bring success.

1:09:56 It makes me think of the whole world of defense

1:09:59 mechanisms and the way we meet life with resistance, fundamentally.

1:10:06 You write that cynicism is is more seductive because it's

1:10:09 easier to critique the world than it is to change yourself.

1:10:12 Uh what are the cascade of potential uh defense mechanisms

1:10:19 that one might find themself enacting in any arena of life?

1:10:22 And And why are they important to examine?

1:10:25 Yeah.

1:10:26 There many, many defense mechanisms.

1:10:28 And it's it's a fascinating subject.

1:10:30 Right?

1:10:30 They are the defenses around us that are trying to keep us safe.

1:10:35 And each of us has a different array of defenses,

1:10:38 and we trigger them rapidly and automatically.

1:10:42 Now, we can influence what they are,

1:10:43 just like we can influence the unconscious mind.

1:10:46 We can't go in and change it all at once, but we can influence it.

1:10:49 So, the array that we have is not

1:10:52 necessarily the array that we're stuck with, right?

1:10:55 And there's some parts of it that are good,

1:10:57 and there's some parts of our defenses that we would want to change.

1:10:59 So So, for example, cynicism is an unhealthy defense.

1:11:04 What it tells me is that nothing's going to go well,

1:11:08 and no one's going to really behave well.

1:11:10 So, why would I engage anyway?

1:11:12 So, if the opportunity for something good comes,

1:11:14 let's say a a new job possibility,

1:11:17 cynicism can protect a person from the risk of failure

1:11:23 at the expense of ensuring that there can never be success.

1:11:27 Right?

1:11:27 So, if there's another uh uh I could possibly get a better job,

1:11:31 but I have to apply for the job, and and I might not get the job.

1:11:34 So, so I could say, "Look, that does make me anxious.

1:11:38 Won't feel great if I apply for the job and I don't get it,

1:11:40 but I want a better job." I want a better job,

1:11:43 so it's not going to be easy to fill out that application,

1:11:45 and I don't know, maybe the process will be fair, maybe it won't.

1:11:48 I don't know.

1:11:49 But, I'm going to bring my best self to the process.

1:11:51 I've given myself a chance of success.

1:11:54 There's a chance that I'll be disappointed,

1:11:55 but it shouldn't be awful disappointment, right?

1:11:58 Let's say I learn it's not a fair process.

1:11:59 I'm not happy about that, but okay, I brought my best self.

1:12:03 Or, let's say I don't do the best job.

1:12:05 Let me learn from that, I'll do better next time.

1:12:07 But, there's a chance of success.

1:12:08 What cynicism does is ensure that there can be no success.

1:12:11 If I say, "That's never going to work out, right?

1:12:14 That job doesn't probably exist, or somebody's already got an inside line to it,

1:12:17 and the hell with that, I'm not going to be

1:12:19 a sucker and go and go for that." Right?

1:12:21 So, in the moment, I'm trying to keep myself safer.

1:12:25 Right?

1:12:25 I'm trying to protect myself from disappointment, but what have I done?

1:12:29 Right?

1:12:29 I've ensured that there's no possibility of success,

1:12:31 just like if I said, "I want to keep myself very, very physically safe,

1:12:36 right?" Um but, I also need to go out and get some sunlight.

1:12:40 Well, you know what?

1:12:40 I I can't hide under the bed.

1:12:42 I'll probably be more physically safe than if I go out the front door,

1:12:45 but that's where the sunlight is.

1:12:47 So, we have to understand how and where to take some chances.

1:12:50 So, cynicism's an unhealthy defense mechanism,

1:12:54 but because they're deployed so rapidly,

1:12:56 you know, you have to know to look at yourself.

1:12:58 Otherwise, the person doesn't stop and say, "You know,

1:13:01 why is it that I want a better job?

1:13:03 But the last three possibilities that have come up, I've said, "Ah,

1:13:06 that's not going to work." And I haven't even put my myself out there, right?

1:13:11 So, we have to be able to stop and think about our life narrative

1:13:13 and and talk to someone else or write it down or go to therapy.

1:13:16 Be reflective, right?

1:13:18 Say, "What am I doing?" Because some of our defenses will not be healthy.

1:13:21 Humor is a is a defense.

1:13:23 It's we we can The reason I come to it after cynicism

1:13:25 is humor can be very adaptive or can be not adaptive, right?

1:13:29 So, if all of my humor is cynical, that's not so good.

1:13:34 Sarcastic, perhaps, sometimes?

1:13:36 So, let's say I apply for the job and I don't get it.

1:13:39 And and I say, "Well, there's a bunch of jerks that don't pay attention,

1:13:42 right?" Like, what have I done?

1:13:44 I've ensured that I won't learn from the experience, right?

1:13:47 So, I've used humor there in a way that's sarcastic or cynical.

1:13:50 But we can use humor adaptively, too.

1:13:52 You know, I could not get the job and say, "Okay, what did I give up?

1:13:56 A couple hours of my time and, you know, and I learned something from it.

1:13:59 So, okay, I'm I'm not the you know,

1:14:02 I I I may not be the perfect job candidate for everything, but like, here I am,

1:14:05 doing my best, putting my hat in the ring or whatever it

1:14:08 may be." We can we can kind of be light-hearted about it.

1:14:10 And then it can be adaptive.

1:14:12 So, there are defense mechanisms that are that are good, like sublimating.

1:14:15 Something negative happens and we look at like, "Okay,

1:14:17 can I make something good of this?" Not in a Pollyanna way, but in a real way.

1:14:21 So, it's called sublimating.

1:14:23 That's a good defense mechanism.

1:14:25 Cynicism is a is an unhealthy defense mechanism.

1:14:28 Then there are ones like humor that can that can cut both ways.

1:14:31 And how interesting, talk about playing detective with oneself to say,

1:14:35 "What are my array of defense mechanisms?

1:14:37 What are the ones that are healthy,

1:14:38 that are good ones?" Like, I want to know that, right?

1:14:40 And I want to nurture them.

1:14:42 I want more of that.

1:14:43 What are the ones that are just plain bad?

1:14:45 Cuz like, I want to really look at those.

1:14:47 Ideally, I wouldn't do them at all.

1:14:49 I can't do that overnight.

1:14:50 Let me understand.

1:14:51 What are the ones that can cut both ways?

1:14:52 How can I make that more good than bad?

1:14:54 Like it's fascinating to think like we're we're our own castle,

1:14:57 and there's all these defenses around the castle walls,

1:15:00 and we can go around and look at them and say,

1:15:02 "How do I want this to be better?" Huh.

1:15:06 What So, what would the full list you that you see,

1:15:09 you know, as a clinician, those that come into your office,

1:15:12 the what are the variety, the sample platter, if you will,

1:15:15 of different mechanisms starting with maybe denial and what have you?

1:15:18 Yeah.

1:15:19 Again, there are many, many, many of them, but just to to to sum of them.

1:15:22 So, denial, rationalization, avoidance tend to come together.

1:15:28 Um sublimating is when we take something negative, we make something good of it.

1:15:33 Uh as we said, humor can cut both ways.

1:15:36 Other examples, for example, could be acting out.

1:15:38 So, acting out's an unhealthy defense mechanism where we kind of tantrum a bit,

1:15:42 or someone says something we don't like,

1:15:44 even if it's real and true, like we automatically say something negative back.

1:15:48 That's a negative defense mechanism.

1:15:50 Altruism is a good one.

1:15:52 It's very, very hard to do, but if someone does you an unkind turn,

1:15:55 and you resolve that the next thing you're going

1:15:57 to do is do someone a good turn, right?

1:15:59 See how much better you feel after that.

1:16:01 That's altruism.

1:16:02 So, there's just there there's so many of them

1:16:06 that that span the ones that are good, the ones that are bad,

1:16:09 and the ones that can cut both ways, but that's just a sample.

1:16:13 It's a fun game and puzzle to figure out, I feel like,

1:16:16 the different aspects of self that show up consistently and I think,

1:16:21 at least for me, I've really grow the most in relationship.

1:16:24 I think having like a mirror to see what's coming up.

1:16:28 If you spend a lot of time alone, it can be pretty easy just to be cruising,

1:16:31 you know, and not really have as much insight into the things that are there.

1:16:36 When you think about self-inquiry as a consistent practice we can

1:16:39 employ in our life and the various tools to support that.

1:16:43 Um yeah, what are your What are

1:16:44 your thoughts on how we can uh understand self-inquiry,

1:16:50 deploy it in our life in an in an effective way,

1:16:53 and what you've seen has been really the most effective way to do so?

1:16:56 Yeah.

1:16:56 Yeah.

1:16:57 I think [snorts] the starting premise is to take it very seriously,

1:17:01 but to be lighthearted about it.

1:17:04 This idea of having interest in ourselves, of like, oh,

1:17:06 if I'm a castle and there's these defenses around the castle walls,

1:17:09 like, it is interesting to go around and look at I want to do that, right?

1:17:13 I'm curious about myself.

1:17:14 I know that it's really important, it's my life.

1:17:17 So, it's it's it's very important, but I'm not going to put pressure on myself.

1:17:20 I've got to achieve this much by this time.

1:17:22 Like, I'm just going to go one day to the next,

1:17:25 and I'm going to take steps up, and I'm going to take some steps back, too.

1:17:28 But but what's the key?

1:17:29 I'm going to take more steps up than back, right?

1:17:32 So, with that premise,

1:17:33 we can then think about ourselves and how we might go about it.

1:17:37 So, if I'm a person who likes to write,

1:17:38 and I feel like I can write pretty good, and I can capture,

1:17:41 you know, situations, I can summarize things, I might say, you know,

1:17:45 if I don't feel really good now, where is that coming from?

1:17:48 Let me just write it about it.

1:17:50 When's the last time I felt good, different from how I feel now?

1:17:53 How did I feel then?

1:17:55 How do I feel now?

1:17:56 What's happened in the middle?

1:17:58 Let me write about that, right?

1:18:00 Or I might be a person who I don't want to sit down and write,

1:18:03 but I've got some good friends, and I can say,

1:18:06 like, hey, can we just sit down for a bit?

1:18:07 I just I just want to talk a bit.

1:18:09 I'm trying to sort some things out inside right?

1:18:11 Another possibility could be going to therapy and saying,

1:18:14 hey, let me engage a professional.

1:18:16 It's got to be I have to be careful who's who's working with us,

1:18:18 but someone who's going to pay attention and and really be interested in me.

1:18:22 I could bring that to bear.

1:18:23 Or it could be reflective, right?

1:18:25 It is it's hard for us to get ourselves into this place of peace,

1:18:29 where we're living in the present.

1:18:30 And that's why there's such an emphasis on mindfulness, right?

1:18:33 Because mindfulness brings us in to the present.

1:18:35 So, it might be through meditation.

1:18:38 Uh it might be through taking a walk and being reflective.

1:18:40 Like for for some people, you know,

1:18:42 one might really um be conducive to thought about self.

1:18:47 The The other for another person it might be being really active.

1:18:49 Like what works for me to like really start thinking about myself

1:18:53 and being curious and and looking at what are the traps I fall into?

1:18:56 What am I saying to myself?

1:18:58 Or even stopping for a little bit and noticing what goes on inside of me, right?

1:19:02 When I'm not actually doing anything.

1:19:04 What am I saying to myself?

1:19:05 Can I notice it?

1:19:06 Can we just become curious?

1:19:07 And then we start deploying the mechanisms that work for us.

1:19:11 And of course, everyone's, you know, every we're all different, right?

1:19:14 But there, you know, there's a a finite number of ways to get at ourselves.

1:19:18 You know, we could be curious about the conscious mind.

1:19:20 What am I paying attention to?

1:19:21 Right?

1:19:22 And And do I turn away from things that are uncomfortable to pay attention to?

1:19:25 Am I drawn to things that are uncomfortable?

1:19:28 Like what am I doing with my conscious mind?

1:19:30 This is the same process we would do.

1:19:32 Again, if you came If you came in and you said, "Well,

1:19:34 I don't know if I feel really short of breath." I'd say,

1:19:36 "Okay, well, let's start.

1:19:37 We're going to We're going to look at you from top to bottom.

1:19:39 We're going to do an examination." Right?

1:19:41 The same way if you say, "I just don't feel good.

1:19:43 I don't have a lot of energy.

1:19:44 I don't feel very hopeful.

1:19:46 My mood is down." I'd say, "Well, we're going to do the same thing,

1:19:48 except it's not a physical examination." Right?

1:19:50 What we're going to do is we're going to examine the structure of self.

1:19:53 I might be interested, what's going on in your unconscious mind?

1:19:56 Might you have learned some negative lessons

1:19:57 that are pinging around in there all the time?

1:19:59 What are you doing with your conscious mind?

1:20:01 Where are you directing your attention?

1:20:03 Is that helpful to you?

1:20:04 Is it different from what it was before?

1:20:06 Right?

1:20:06 What are your defense mechanism?

1:20:07 Let's think about them.

1:20:09 Um if you're not feeling as good, have they shifted over time?

1:20:12 How have they been when you felt really good?

1:20:15 Are you interested in learning more about them?

1:20:17 And then character structure, how are you interacting in the world?

1:20:20 Do you feel like the same person you

1:20:22 were when you didn't feel down like this, right?

1:20:24 And And then ultimately, we want to understand the I.

1:20:26 That like there's this this person you know yourself to be.

1:20:29 How do you feel about that person?

1:20:31 What kind of summary statements would you say about that person?

1:20:34 You know, how does that fit with how you felt 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years ago?

1:20:38 So, what we're doing is we're running through the structure of self.

1:20:41 We run through the function of self.

1:20:42 We look at empowerment and humility,

1:20:44 how you're interfacing with the world through agency and gratitude,

1:20:48 how much or how little of that is there.

1:20:50 Are you finding peace, contentment, and delight?

1:20:52 How assertive are you?

1:20:53 What's your baseline assertiveness?

1:20:55 If you're normally a pretty assertive person in the world around

1:20:58 you and now you're kind of shy and retiring for everything,

1:21:01 whoa, that's a change, right?

1:21:04 Or if, you know, there are things that you do and they used

1:21:06 to really bring you a lot of pleasure and satisfaction and they're not now.

1:21:10 We want to understand those things and then ultimately,

1:21:13 we're always looking at the generative drive

1:21:15 that that is above and overarching everything and we're saying,

1:21:19 "Hey, is what you're doing, what's underneath of it,

1:21:22 the structure function of self moving up,

1:21:23 is it supporting your generative drive to be healthy?

1:21:27 Are you using your generative drive as much as you

1:21:29 can so you're fostering goodness in what sits underneath of it?

1:21:32 Now we're getting a conception of you and if we do that, we're very

1:21:36 likely to figure out what's going on in you and how to make it better.

1:21:39 Just like if you come in and you're feeling short of breath,

1:21:42 you know, we should be able to get at that, right?

1:21:43 It shouldn't be like, "Oh my gosh,

1:21:45 we figured out what was going on and we can make it better." No,

1:21:48 it's not that in the physical health realm and it

1:21:50 doesn't have to be in the mental health realm either.

1:21:53 To take an example of that, I'm curious

1:21:55 for somebody that has these patterns that are deeply ingrained.

1:21:59 Maybe as a child they they equated

1:22:01 their mother's love with performance in life and they've

1:22:05 now lived for decades of their life

1:22:07 building evidence to support that belief about themselves.

1:22:11 And I've heard you you've been quoted saying

1:22:13 anything that's over-learned doesn't go away overnight, you know?

1:22:17 And so for these patterns that are deeply ingrained

1:22:19 and embedded as like we fundamentally believe that's who we are.

1:22:24 How does one go from just the awareness

1:22:27 of what the pattern is to true transformation.

1:22:29 And what have you seen the progression to truly

1:22:32 empower people to to to make that change?

1:22:36 Very often just knowledge,

1:22:38 like knowledge is so empowering that I've often thought,

1:22:41 if I just tell people get knowledge,

1:22:42 oh now we understand and then didn't do anything more,

1:22:44 which which wouldn't be right, there are other things to do.

1:22:47 That alone brings so much goodness into our lives.

1:22:51 Let alone when we say, okay, now that we see it, what do we do about it, right?

1:22:55 So in the example that you gave,

1:22:57 let's say you have a a person who when that person was a a boy,

1:23:03 received affection and approval from their mother by by performing,

1:23:07 by doing what the mother wanted them to do.

1:23:09 Now that person grows up into an adult and let's say that person is interested

1:23:15 in women as romantic partners and finds

1:23:17 that I just I don't have good relationships,

1:23:20 you know, and I'm always just we say, well how how is that?

1:23:23 And they say, well, I'm always meeting women who just, you know,

1:23:26 they don't appreciate me for me and like they want things from me,

1:23:30 but then when I do those things, you know,

1:23:33 I don't get a lot back and then there's

1:23:35 more things to do and and like that's just me.

1:23:37 Usually that'll be accompanied by a bunch of negative words.

1:23:40 That's what's wrong with me or I'm never going to find someone.

1:23:42 We say, well, okay, that's interesting.

1:23:44 Now let's explore a little bit more and we see this person is

1:23:47 trying to please their romantic partners in order to get approval and in fact,

1:23:53 they're choosing people who want to be pleased, right?

1:23:55 They're choosing people who maybe aren't looking

1:23:57 for something that's mutual and we can say,

1:23:59 oh, well that's kind of interesting, where might it come from?

1:24:02 Now in the conversations we look back and we say, lo and behold,

1:24:05 there was a mother that wanted things from this person,

1:24:08 approval was conditional.

1:24:10 So so then the person well became performative.

1:24:12 We can say, oh, we can link that and it's actually that's natural and normal.

1:24:17 We always want to say we're all unique, but we fit patterns, right?

1:24:20 So it's okay, like in no harm, no foul, no shame.

1:24:23 Like this is sometimes what happens.

1:24:25 trauma bonding when you essentially are playing out that drama

1:24:28 later out in life and you find the you know,

1:24:31 the person that is the archetypal representation

1:24:33 of your mother in a partner, for example.

1:24:35 Is that what you would say?

1:24:36 I think I think usually it's not how trauma bonding it is is used.

1:24:40 I think here it would be the person is trying to stay safe, right?

1:24:45 They want approval, they don't want disapproval.

1:24:48 So, So, they say, "Okay, well, that's the pattern that has you know,

1:24:52 has inside of him." So, he says, "Okay, that's that's what happens.

1:24:56 Women will approve of me if I do things for them,

1:24:58 right?" So, let me find someone who wants something done for them.

1:25:01 That other person may have their own trauma, they may not.

1:25:03 They may just be someone who says, "Hey, you know what?

1:25:05 I want to get more than I give." right?

1:25:07 So, then by understanding the person's own trauma,

1:25:10 they can say, "Oh, that's why my relationships are going wrong.

1:25:13 I haven't had like eight different bad relationships.

1:25:16 I've had the same relationship eight times over in choosing

1:25:18 someone who's not going to be able to meet my needs.

1:25:21 Oh my gosh, I understand that." Now,

1:25:23 the person setting themselves on a path to success

1:25:25 cuz they're looking for a different kind of partner.

1:25:28 I think very often when people say trauma bond,

1:25:30 what they're talking about is two people who have trauma

1:25:34 and they come together in a way that's unhealthy, right?

1:25:37 Now, and I think that's not fair

1:25:39 because sometimes people can have trauma and they

1:25:41 can come together with cognizance of their trauma in ways that can be healthy.

1:25:46 So, So, I think the trauma bond is when people have their trauma,

1:25:48 there's some awareness of that, and then the two people come together.

1:25:52 It's viewed often as unhealthy, but it's not necessarily that way.

1:25:57 And so, you were you referred to how like how important and and powerful

1:26:01 the sheer information and knowledge of what's going on inside can be.

1:26:07 And then do you think it's like maintaining it comes

1:26:09 down to really in practice day-to-day when these triggers come up?

1:26:12 Is it just maintaining an awareness

1:26:14 of those drives and those motivating factors.

1:26:18 Um And how does one go from awareness

1:26:22 to like true integration and transformation at stage?

1:26:25 Is there anything else you want to you want to add there?

1:26:27 Yeah.

1:26:27 Yeah.

1:26:28 You know, sometimes that's gaining insight over time.

1:26:31 A lot of times change in our lives it comes from perseverance.

1:26:36 You know, as as I've done what I do longer and longer across time,

1:26:41 I I've realized more and more that a lot

1:26:44 of healthy change is sort of like cracking rocks.

1:26:46 Right?

1:26:47 That it is hard work to get insight and knowledge.

1:26:50 And and that's also can be great, right?

1:26:53 Because there's a gratification of the hard work yielding insight and knowledge.

1:26:57 Often once we have insight and knowledge, what we need to do is keep trying.

1:27:02 Keep trying.

1:27:03 Keep trying.

1:27:04 And and that can be hard to do.

1:27:06 We very often get daunted because we don't see results fast enough.

1:27:10 And and I often find myself in my own life and trying to make

1:27:14 change and in trying to help other people to more and more say right?

1:27:18 Like we've got to do it over and over again.

1:27:21 That thing I'm trying to change, I was over eight last week.

1:27:25 Okay, but you know what?

1:27:26 This week I've got to work to be one for eight.

1:27:29 Right?

1:27:29 And and if we don't lose confidence in ourselves because you know,

1:27:33 we live in a world where the society

1:27:36 around us is set up for very rapid gratification.

1:27:39 Right?

1:27:40 Like we want to do something, we want the response right away, right?

1:27:43 So we're not built or the society around us isn't built to say,

1:27:46 "Hey, you know what?

1:27:47 It's really hard and you know,

1:27:49 you might have to come up empty eight or nine times.

1:27:51 And then if the 10th time you get a win, that's great.

1:27:54 You know, it might be another five or six before you get another one.

1:27:57 That's okay.

1:27:58 That's how it changes." we often don't set ourselves up

1:28:02 that way and the field doesn't set someone up by saying,

1:28:05 you know, "You're going to have to work at this over a long time." You know,

1:28:09 many many times a person has said to me like get intrusive thought of oh,

1:28:13 you're a loser or nothing will ever work out." Like I I want that to go away.

1:28:17 And I'll say, "It can go away,

1:28:19 but not soon." Like cuz if you said it to yourself 10,000 times over,

1:28:24 it's not going to go away overnight.

1:28:26 It's the same example I always give.

1:28:28 If we picked a word and we said it a thousand times,

1:28:31 we'll each be saying it later today.

1:28:33 Why?

1:28:33 Because we said it.

1:28:35 Right?

1:28:35 So, we have to set people up for success by saying

1:28:38 this thing that's been going on in you over and over again.

1:28:40 It can change, but it changes across time.

1:28:42 So, I'll often say part of my job is helping you see it is going to take time.

1:28:47 And not getting down on yourself if it's five,

1:28:49 six times that it doesn't go well.

1:28:51 Or something that's a law of large numbers.

1:28:53 Like someone asking someone out.

1:28:55 Right?

1:28:55 It maybe it takes a bunch of times.

1:28:57 Right?

1:28:57 So, also part of my role is to help you not give up and get

1:29:00 down on yourself if the next three times you ask, you get a no.

1:29:03 Right?

1:29:03 Cuz you know, it may take 10 times.

1:29:05 Right?

1:29:06 And but but we really need that because

1:29:08 we're so subject to to losing confidence in ourselves,

1:29:12 to feeling dejected, right?

1:29:14 Or to feeling like we're failures.

1:29:16 And then try to protect ourselves by not even trying anymore.

1:29:19 Right?

1:29:19 So, a lot of times the work is helping us set what our expectations would be.

1:29:25 And you know, there are things in myself I thought

1:29:26 like I really want this to change in three, four months.

1:29:29 And you know, we're five,

1:29:30 six years down the road and I've been able to bring some change to it.

1:29:33 But how I wanted it to happen in me just wasn't you know,

1:29:37 it was so over-learned.

1:29:38 But but that can be okay, too.

1:29:40 It's not like life isn't getting better along the way, right?

1:29:43 It's just getting better in a way that's slow rate of change.

1:29:46 But like, that's okay, too.

1:29:48 And the field often doesn't help us understand that.

1:29:51 I find it interesting that a lot of people who have gone through very hard,

1:29:55 challenging circumstances in their life at some point tend to develop

1:29:59 a level of gratitude for that circumstance and that event.

1:30:03 For some reason, beautiful people seem to have just gone through hard things.

1:30:07 It it shapes you, it forms you in some way.

1:30:09 It's the resistance necessary for you to grow those virtuous aspects of self.

1:30:14 Have you seen that to be the case

1:30:15 in your life and with the people you work with?

1:30:18 Yes, I I think again,

1:30:19 we have to be careful because if if we're up against really big things,

1:30:23 you know, we're human, we're fallible.

1:30:25 We don't always get through them.

1:30:27 So, I think we as a society owe it to all of us,

1:30:30 especially to the people who are the most disadvantaged,

1:30:33 to help people get through difficult things

1:30:36 more cuz we don't always get through them.

1:30:39 But if we do get through them, we almost always come out wiser on the other side

1:30:44 with just a greater appreciation for how hard life is.

1:30:49 And so many people get they get up in the morning,

1:30:52 do what needs to be done, do things that don't, you know,

1:30:55 the band doesn't come into play for what they're doing,

1:30:57 but what they're doing is very very difficult

1:31:00 and they're they're winning quiet victories of self.

1:31:03 Life is hard and we need to celebrate more how hard

1:31:08 it is to just get up in the morning and get

1:31:09 through life until often a person goes to sleep that night

1:31:12 so they can get up in the morning and do it again.

1:31:15 So, so much of what we really should be able

1:31:18 to value and celebrate inside of us are just the quiet

1:31:21 victories in a life that is so hard and we

1:31:25 gain an appreciation for that, which I think then brings humility.

1:31:29 So, it can bring the humility that if I

1:31:32 then don't achieve something I want, instead of to say,

1:31:35 "Oh, you're not good enough anyway." or to say,

1:31:36 "Hey, life is life is hard, right?

1:31:39 It doesn't always go the way I want it." Like, "Oh, you know what?

1:31:42 I'll try again." Or maybe there's not a chance to try again.

1:31:44 You know what?

1:31:44 I'll have to feel good about myself even though that didn't work out.

1:31:47 Like, I have the humility to to accept that.

1:31:50 Or if you and I are interacting and you

1:31:52 do something that upsets me or disappoints me,

1:31:54 instead of being angry or or aggressive to say like,

1:31:56 "Hey, life is life is hard, you know,

1:31:58 we all make missteps." And or maybe I'm not even perceiving it, right?

1:32:01 But even if I am, let me give this person a little bit of grace, right?

1:32:04 So, I think we we come out on the other

1:32:06 side with more humility regarding self and other,

1:32:09 and then that's leading us right to the active

1:32:12 gratitude that is like this with agency.

1:32:17 Is there a a predominant event in your life that you feel like did that for you?

1:32:23 A challenging circumstance that you felt like

1:32:26 down the road you made you more humble, grew you more wiser.

1:32:31 Yeah.

1:32:32 Yeah.

1:32:33 I think the loss of my brother who died by suicide many,

1:32:37 many years ago was an event like that.

1:32:40 I mean, I was I was young and I had a lot

1:32:43 of very naive views of the world and how the world

1:32:46 was supposed to go if you lived in a certain way

1:32:49 and did things in a certain way that results were supposed to come,

1:32:51 you were supposed to get what you want.

1:32:52 Much more cause and effect,

1:32:53 which we can tend to think when we're younger and and experiencing the reflexive

1:32:59 just fear of it and the sense of guilt and shame that comes from trauma,

1:33:04 that came from such a big trauma and and realizing well,

1:33:07 there's you know, life is a lot harder,

1:33:10 you know, it's going to be a lot harder for me than I had imagined it would be.

1:33:14 It's a lot harder for other people around me and it took a long time.

1:33:17 It took time to see that across time and across therapy.

1:33:20 Um, but I think yeah,

1:33:23 very abrupt it abruptly shifted me into to a place from which

1:33:27 I could gain a greater insight into just how hard life is.

1:33:37 How do you make sense of how that formed you?

1:33:39 Not looking back.

1:33:42 Well, I think, you know,

1:33:43 it brought a lot of risk to me because especially as as you said like a lot

1:33:48 of people we grow up often in places

1:33:50 where getting help or expressing feelings is not Yeah.

1:33:54 okay.

1:33:56 Um, so I I understood just how much in a society

1:34:00 that doesn't reach out to help us and and and say, "Hey,

1:34:05 there's not like a service that comes around and says, you know,

1:34:07 we we we notice this world around us

1:34:09 that you've had a really big trauma in your life.

1:34:11 Let's see, can we wrap some helping resources

1:34:13 around you and help you understand?" You know,

1:34:15 I realized I was very fortunate to have good people around me,

1:34:19 although they didn't you know, we didn't none of us understood how to really

1:34:22 make sense of it and go learn through therapy,

1:34:24 but fortunate to have good people around me and then to one step after another

1:34:33 to also rely on resilience and perseverance

1:34:37 that I was fortunate to have of saying, "I'm not addressing this.

1:34:41 I'm trying to stuff it down." And like

1:34:43 life isn't getting better, it's getting worse.

1:34:45 Like this clearly isn't working and and and to realize

1:34:48 enough to then navigate myself towards getting some help.

1:34:51 You know, and at some point in time I you know,

1:34:54 I called the 800 number on the back of my insurance card and you know,

1:34:57 I was like, "I need a therapist." And you know,

1:34:58 and I felt so embarrassed about it.

1:35:00 And you know, to to go look back and see like how bad something like that is

1:35:04 and how it turns our world upside down and how hard it was to let myself get

1:35:09 help that I feel very very fortunate

1:35:12 that for the goodness around me and just the blessings

1:35:15 of of resilience for example to get myself

1:35:17 to that point and um and then you know, that set me down a path of really trying

1:35:24 to take in what I had learned of realizing,

1:35:26 "Oh, like there's a lot more around us.

1:35:28 There's this bigger world of understanding that I

1:35:31 want to to live in." And ultimately

1:35:33 was just very curious about getting more understanding

1:35:36 and being able to help people have understanding.

1:35:38 And of course my brother hadn't had help.

1:35:40 The system around us, he was having very big problems,

1:35:43 wasn't able to see that and I wasn't able to see that.

1:35:45 And you know, to realize that doesn't have to be this way.

1:35:49 Like there there are tragedies that are avoidable.

1:35:52 And you know, when the light bulb went off like oh,

1:35:54 there's a lot more to to learn.

1:35:57 I thought okay, I can maybe help myself and help others and it set

1:36:00 me down a path towards medicine and towards some real and important life change

1:36:04 Mhm.

1:36:04 for me.

1:36:05 Yeah, I could imagine how that would really stretch your capacity

1:36:09 for empathy uh when people go through challenging traumatic events.

1:36:14 Yeah.

1:36:15 Yeah.

1:36:16 Most people have had an experience where like you know,

1:36:18 life time just comes to a stop or they're falling through space or you know,

1:36:23 we just like we we just come apart from reality

1:36:26 and just feel a sense of terror and you know,

1:36:28 most of us have felt things like that.

1:36:31 I think it doesn't a person doesn't have

1:36:33 to feel that in order to bring compassion

1:36:35 to others but to have felt that and to to really be open and honest about it.

1:36:40 I I I think that you know,

1:36:42 we're people trying to help each other and I think we're not

1:36:44 doing any service for anyone being in a helping place that distances ourselves.

1:36:48 You know, we have to be real people with real people and engage

1:36:51 in a collaborative process and and I

1:36:54 think that makes a very very big difference.

1:36:55 It's made difference to me over the years of being helped by someone who I

1:36:58 I was showing me their humanity and then you know, it it it you know,

1:37:03 press the buttons of now I feel ashamed vis-a-vis this person

1:37:05 who's trying to help me and I think if we bring

1:37:07 that openness to mental health work which the system also doesn't

1:37:10 always foster um we can just be better people in the world.

1:37:14 It's better for the people we're helping and of course, you know,

1:37:17 this up cycle of goodness means that it's then helpful and good for us, too.

1:37:23 Mhm.

1:37:23 You mentioned a moment watching your mentor at Harvard

1:37:27 um and how I'm sure that probably goes hand-in-hand.

1:37:32 I just love to hear a little bit

1:37:33 more how your ability to be present with somebody.

1:37:36 I think so many of us in our lives when somebody comes to us with a problem,

1:37:41 we have this tendency to try to give a a fix and a solution right off the bat.

1:37:45 Um instead when there's a wounded dog who's traumatized,

1:37:48 often you just need to be able to sit in their presence for a little bit,

1:37:52 like allow that to be in the room,

1:37:54 and uh how have you learned what have you learned about

1:37:58 the importance of of being present

1:38:00 when you're trying to really support somebody?

1:38:02 Right.

1:38:02 Right.

1:38:03 And a lot of that starts with learning about

1:38:05 ourselves and how uncomfortable someone else's discomfort can make us.

1:38:11 And then there can be an inclination to try and solve that or fix that.

1:38:17 And it often comes from a well-meaning place, but it's not helpful.

1:38:20 I mean, the stereotype here is that men do more

1:38:23 of this and men do do more of this of trying to fix, right?

1:38:26 But, you know, anyone can can do this where we where like we we want

1:38:29 to fix something and what we're really reacting

1:38:33 to is our own discomfort, not someone else's.

1:38:36 It may be that if something sad or distressing has happened,

1:38:39 then what's just clearly what's best for me is to just

1:38:41 sit with you and for for you to feel that hey, there's someone with me, right,

1:38:45 who really is not trying to hide from what's going on to me,

1:38:48 also isn't overwhelmed by it, you know,

1:38:50 that that person can handle what's going on inside of me,

1:38:53 which often helps people think,

1:38:55 "Okay, you know, then then I can get my arms around it,

1:38:57 too." Like it it's so helpful for someone to just sit with us,

1:39:00 but to be aware that inside of us can be a very strong urge not to do that.

1:39:05 And then we can trick ourselves into saying, "Well,

1:39:07 I really want to say something cuz I want this person to feel better." Again,

1:39:10 here's where we we stop and there's like, "Okay,

1:39:12 let me look at that." Like I do want this person to feel better.

1:39:15 But is it that I really want to say something so they feel better

1:39:18 or is it that I really want to say something so I feel better, right?

1:39:21 And I'm serving something different from them feeling better.

1:39:23 And it's often realizing that in ourselves

1:39:25 and having role modeling from from people around us,

1:39:28 you know, when when clinicians are early, you know,

1:39:31 in training to see good people who can do that and and they

1:39:35 can role model just being with someone through their suffering

1:39:37 and their discomfort is that's a very big part of what we're here

1:39:41 to do and we we're able to do that by looking into ourselves.

1:39:45 Yeah, well said.

1:39:47 What's one thing that you fundamentally have

1:39:49 changed your belief on over the past decade,

1:39:51 uh especially when it comes to working with individuals?

1:39:57 You know, if if I think about what I've

1:39:58 learned and how I've changed over the last 10 years,

1:40:02 it's been in a way that's more hopeful and and that has shown me,

1:40:07 hey, look, there is so much capacity for change and that like

1:40:11 really being in there with with the person makes such a difference.

1:40:14 You know, they we're taught a lot about

1:40:16 boundaries and there are boundaries that are very,

1:40:18 very important to of course to keep with the people that we're taking care of.

1:40:22 They we don't want to violate those boundaries because it's harmful to do so.

1:40:26 Then there are boundaries that are there just because they're

1:40:28 kind of standard and they don't necessarily make sense, right?

1:40:34 So, I can think of someone who's very overweight

1:40:36 and that person wasn't losing weight and they've been through so,

1:40:38 so, so much therapy and they needed to someone to walk with them.

1:40:41 Right?

1:40:42 So, we did our work while walking together

1:40:44 and it's it's a different way to do work,

1:40:46 but it was I I still remember her eyes lighting up, right?

1:40:48 That we're going to go walk together.

1:40:49 Like someone would care enough to go walk and then she was able to do more of it

1:40:53 on her own and and it's things like

1:40:55 that of being very careful and circumspect about what we're doing,

1:40:59 but realizing that that if we're in helping roles,

1:41:04 like we're the tool of the helping and to think,

1:41:06 can I think a little bit more broadly about how

1:41:09 to be there with a person and sometimes that's self-disclosure.

1:41:13 We want to be very careful that if we're sitting with someone,

1:41:15 it of course has to be about them,

1:41:17 but sometimes learning something about us or something

1:41:19 that's vulnerable about us or some mistake

1:41:22 that that that I've made that may be worse

1:41:25 than what that person is beating themselves up about.

1:41:26 Like let's talk about things for real because

1:41:29 then we're we're coming at what we're trying

1:41:31 to do from the perspective of shared humanness

1:41:34 and really that's good for everything that we're doing.

1:41:36 If we can lead with shared humanness,

1:41:39 then we're really being governed by the generative drive.

1:41:42 If you had 60 seconds to share a message to everybody listening,

1:41:49 one important thing to know about the mind, what would that be?

1:41:55 So, you know, your mind doesn't want you to be unhappy.

1:42:00 Right?

1:42:00 You It's your mind.

1:42:01 It's your friend, but it's easy for it to get confused.

1:42:05 And when it gets confused, we get scared,

1:42:07 and we step further away from understanding.

1:42:09 We get more anxious.

1:42:11 We get more down on ourselves.

1:42:13 And I'll bring the message that what's inside of us can help us be healthier,

1:42:19 be happier, and we can go look at it.

1:42:21 We don't have to be afraid of that.

1:42:23 That there's this thing that you can do, even if stopping and saying,

1:42:26 "Let me think more about what's going on inside me,

1:42:28 slow down the progress, look at myself." That we don't have to be afraid of it.

1:42:33 We can look at what we find, and we can use it for good.

1:42:37 And so often the reason we don't do that is because we're shying away from it.

1:42:43 Well said.

1:42:44 I think you do such a great job

1:42:45 at articulating the reasons why our mind is our friend,

1:42:49 and uh I keep coming back to to what you said about the compassionate curiosity.

1:42:54 Like that little bit of openness that we bring to ourselves and others,

1:42:57 I think makes a world of a difference.

1:42:59 Yes.

1:43:00 Yeah, is I'm curious with the whole context

1:43:02 of this conversation now with your new book, What's What's Going Right?

1:43:06 Is there Is there something that you feel like

1:43:08 we haven't touched on that would be important to?

1:43:10 When you just said compassionate curiosity, I thought,

1:43:12 "If I haven't used my whole 60 seconds, I want to add that to the end

1:43:16 of bring compassionate curiosity to yourself." And And I

1:43:19 think we've covered We've talked about the things

1:43:22 I think it's so important to talk about.

1:43:24 And I think bringing compassionate curiosity, if we think about the bottom up,

1:43:28 it's to bring compassionate curiosity to yourself.

1:43:30 And if we think about the top-down,

1:43:32 it's know that this generative drive is in you.

1:43:36 Be interested in it.

1:43:37 Be curious about it.

1:43:38 Be fascinated by it.

1:43:40 And bring to yourself, do yourself a service of bringing to you,

1:43:43 how can this generative drive guide my life more?

1:43:47 Compassionate curiosity from the bottom up,

1:43:49 the generative drive from the top-down, this is how we make our lives better.

1:43:55 Well, Dr.

1:43:56 Khonsary, I think it's been so amazing to to see you step more

1:44:03 into the author space and sharing more on podcasts over the past few years.

1:44:07 And I think your empathy shines through super strong

1:44:11 in the conversations and how much you actually care to support people.

1:44:14 And yeah, it's it's it's really amazing.

1:44:17 Um, so we'll leave links down

1:44:19 in the description where people can find your work,

1:44:21 your new book, and all of that.

1:44:23 And I think that's pretty much it.

1:44:25 I feel great about this conversation.

1:44:27 Um, do you have any other last thoughts?

1:44:28 Yeah.

1:44:29 I want to say thank you for such a great interview that you really helped me

1:44:32 to talk about everything I wanted to talk

1:44:34 about and really get the message out there.

1:44:36 So, I appreciate you being here and thank you for the interview.

1:44:38 Amazing.

1:44:39 Well, everybody, thanks for tuning

1:44:40 in to this episode of the Know Thyself podcast.

1:44:42 Thank you so much, man.

1:44:43 And uh, until next time, be well.

1:44:49 [music] [music]