EMMA WATSON EXCLUSIVE: The TRUTH I Have Never Shared Before..

0:00 I realized have the career and the life that looks like the dream,

0:06 but are you really happy, Emma?

0:09 Are you really healthy?

0:10 And have to admit to myself that I wasn't was

0:13 one of the scariest things I've ever had to do.

0:16 The number one health and wellness podcast,

0:19 J Shetty.

0:20 J Shetty,

0:20 the one, the only J.

0:22 Shetty.

0:25 Emma, welcome to On Purpose.

0:26 I'm so grateful that you're here and

0:29 you know you've kind of been out of the public eye for a while now.

0:34 Yes.

0:33 And don't do that many interviews.

0:35 I've watched the interviews you have done even before we plan to do this.

0:40 And I wanted to ask from an intention point almost of why now?

0:44 Why today?

0:44 Why here?

0:45 I think I mentioned but I read your book um because my my dear friend Nuper told

0:51 me that I should and every now and again I would see you come up on my feed.

0:55 I don't spend much time on Instagram anymore, but when I did,

1:00 I just felt like you were having a different conversation.

1:03 And it's not that I have stopped doing

1:06 interviews because I want to hide myself away.

1:11 I think it's because I wanted to be able to have a certain

1:14 type of conversation that I didn't seem able to find a space for.

1:18 And so I called Nooper and said,

1:22 "I think I just reached out to Jay to see if you would

1:24 let me come and do his podcast on Monday." And she was like,

1:27 "I've been waiting for this.

1:29 I wondered when you would do this." I was like,

1:31 "How did you know I was going to do it?" She's like, "I don't know.

1:34 I just felt like this was coming." So, um, here I am.

1:38 And you said yes and the timing worked.

1:40 I I contacted you last week and it's Monday and so

1:44 well from Well, that means the world to me.

1:46 Truly.

1:46 I'm so grateful for that because the few

1:48 interactions and conversations we've had since then and you've

1:52 sent me a few things to read over

1:54 whether it's journals or reflections and honestly I

1:57 I think I just said it to you a few moments ago and I mean it

2:00 even if we weren't having this conversation today

2:02 and you just sent me those things to reflect

2:04 on myself that would have already been

2:05 a gift and so the opportunity to actually sit

2:08 with you and to talk about these things

2:10 and have the space to have a conversation

2:12 that you feel you haven't had before means the world to me and so thank you

2:15 for trusting me and it's I I look forward to getting to know you so much better.

2:19 But let's let's dive in.

2:21 I want I wanted to start by asking you like you said something there that was

2:25 really beautiful because you stopped for a moment

2:27 then you said it's easier to be honest

2:29 and and I was wanted to understand what

2:31 that what that meant to you and how that feels.

2:33 Such a big part of my job was trying to think

2:36 three steps ahead of how everything that I would say

2:39 would be could negatively impact the film that I was

2:42 trying to do justice to and do service to and make

2:46 sure that people understood what the director had intended

2:51 and I felt this enormous sense of responsibility all the time

2:54 to honor so many people's work that put together something

3:00 like a film or you know even to some degree.

3:04 I just did a fragrance with Prada and it's

3:07 the first perfume bottle that you can like refill and I don't know I I take

3:13 my job seriously I guess and so interviews to me

3:16 felt a lot like chess and it required

3:20 so much energy and I think what's nice about

3:22 the way that I'm showing up today is

3:24 I'm just showing up for myself and for once.

3:27 I actually am not here to um speak on behalf

3:30 of anyone else or anything else other than myself, which is unusual.

3:36 Yeah.

3:36 I think I think it's such a fascinating thing because as a viewer,

3:40 even before I got closer to the industry, as a viewer, everything's made to feel

3:46 in traditional media so easy and it has levity

3:51 and it feels like you're getting someone's real

3:52 personality and and then you realize that you are.

3:56 There's definitely reality to it and truth to it.

4:00 Yes.

3:59 But at the same time, naturally, it's work.

4:03 Yeah.

4:02 And and there's a job.

4:04 And I think it's not as And you can shed more light on this.

4:07 I don't think it's always as insidious or as dark as people may think it is,

4:10 but there's there's just it's a job

4:12 and it's work and there's results that matter, right?

4:17 100%.

4:18 And I think within those contexts,

4:19 everyone is trying to be as authentic as they humanly can be.

4:23 But there's something about I think it's why I mentioned um earlier about why

4:28 I felt like this was a good

4:30 space is there's something inherently written into certain

4:33 types of forms of media which is that it it doesn't matter what intention

4:38 or or how authentically you want to show

4:40 up the form like somehow doesn't allow it

4:44 to some degree and I've become obsessed with this recently.

4:47 I've been looking at okay what is

4:49 written into the form of something like Twitter

4:51 or Instagram or Tik Tok or a podcast versus or a photograph versus a film

4:56 versus a piece of writing and it's really interesting to see what a different

5:01 medium or different form allows or doesn't

5:03 allow and or like actually creates or encourages.

5:08 I've never done a podcast before,

5:10 but I love I think what I love about it is the is the intimacy of it.

5:14 It's like I feel like people listen to podcasts

5:16 when they're like I certainly do anyway like first thing

5:19 in the morning when I'm taking my shower or I'm

5:21 going on my walk or I'm making my breakfast.

5:23 It's really like personal intimate time and I

5:26 think the long form version of these kinds

5:28 of conversations uh allows for such a different kind

5:31 of discussion that I don't think was possible before.

5:34 Yeah, absolutely.

5:35 I couldn't agree with you more.

5:36 I was going to ask you actually because I want

5:37 everyone to get up to date with where you are now.

5:39 Like what is what does your day-to-day life look like?

5:41 You just said like I wake up and I shower and I go on a walk.

5:43 Like what does your day-to-day life look like right now?

5:46 And what what makes what's it made of and what

5:49 are the things that you love and look forward to?

5:51 I recently started riding a bicycle and yes,

5:56 I started riding a bicycle before my driving van,

5:59 but now it's particularly fortuitous that I

6:01 also ride a bicycle um for that reason.

6:04 But I thought that was mainstream news.

6:06 Yeah.

6:06 Oh my god.

6:07 I was getting phone calls like it's on the BBC.

6:10 It's on international worldwide news.

6:12 I was like my shame is that it's everywhere.

6:16 This is I mean what I say it's I don't know.

6:20 I think in a funny way what the sweetest result of it was

6:24 getting so many messages from being people being like happened to me too.

6:27 I feel you.

6:28 This is awful.

6:29 It sucks.

6:30 Um which was kind of nice in a way but um lift.

6:34 Yeah totally.

6:35 Do you need a lift?

6:36 It's like actually yes.

6:37 But I think again it's funny like I I went from when you work on movies I don't

6:42 know if people know this but like they literally

6:44 will not insure you to drive yourself to work.

6:47 I've asked so many times.

6:48 You have to be driven.

6:49 You have to be driven.

6:50 It's like not a choice.

6:51 And especially because they need you there, you know,

6:53 down to the minute basically depending on what they have going on.

6:56 And so I went from basically only driving myself on weekends

7:00 or during holiday to then when I became a student driving myself

7:03 all the time and yeah I did not have the experience

7:08 or skills uh clearly which I now will and and and do.

7:13 But I think again this was one

7:14 of these like awkward transitions I made from kind

7:17 of living this like very very structured life to living a life where I was

7:22 like okay I guess I'm going to get myself to this place and I'm going

7:27 to like do this thing that I've basically not done since I was 10 years old.

7:31 So, it's been a discovery and a journey that's been um yeah,

7:36 I guess humbling because on a movie set,

7:39 I'm able to do all of these like extremely complex things,

7:43 stunt, sing, dance, like do this thing, do that, whatever.

7:47 And I'm like, "Yep, don't worry about it, guys.

7:49 No worries.

7:49 I've got you." And then I get home and I'm like,

7:51 "Okay, Emma, you seem unable to remember keys.

7:55 you money to like keep yourself at 30 mph in a in a in a 30 m speed limit.

8:00 Like you you don't seem able to do some pretty like basic life things.

8:06 And it it was definitely kind of Yeah,

8:10 I had days where I just wanted to turn around to people and be like,

8:12 I used to be good at things.

8:14 Okay.

8:14 I used to be really good at things.

8:16 And I know it doesn't look like that right now,

8:18 but um I I used to I I can do things normally.

8:23 Um, so yeah, it's been uh it's been humbling.

8:27 I feel I feel like all of us I feel like all

8:29 of us can relate to that though because doesn't everyone forget their keys,

8:33 their wallet, doesn't know where things are?

8:35 Like these are these are like ser And by the way,

8:37 I was I think I was three points away

8:39 from losing my license before I moved to the States.

8:42 Thank you for that confession.

8:43 I appreciate that so much.

8:44 Because I was in the States for I've been in the States now for 9

8:47 years and I think it happened just but then all the points get wiped off.

8:51 Wow.

8:51 And I think I'm now back to six points.

8:53 I spent two months in London a year.

8:56 Okay.

8:56 Every time I go back, I seem to Oh, much better.

8:59 Wow.

9:00 So, I'm confessing to you.

9:02 But I haven't lost it.

9:03 A lot of people actually a lot of people have

9:05 like taken it upon themselves to come and confess to me,

9:07 which I found like very like very

9:10 endearing and like really really appreciate it.

9:12 But no, I think, you know,

9:15 I think something I've been realizing is we most of us live in a state

9:20 of like I'm just trying to kind of figure it out and keep it together.

9:26 And the only thing that is different between

9:29 us is people's willingness to be honest about that.

9:35 The degree to which they can admit to actually I'm

9:38 just like scrabbling around trying to keep the pieces together

9:41 versus um oh yeah I know everything's amazing and everything's

9:45 incredible and I'm having the best day ever and aren't you?

9:49 And you know, so I do love the people who who are just willing to be like,

9:54 "Yeah, it's uh it's not going so well today." I'm like, "Great, amazing.

10:00 What a good starting point." Like I don't know, failure as a starting point.

10:05 Feels like I feel like attempting things is so compelling.

10:09 And of course success is wonderful, but I love to see people who are like,

10:14 "I'm really bad at this, but I'm going to try." like I love you.

10:19 That's everything to me.

10:20 Everything.

10:21 And that seems to be becoming harder and harder now.

10:23 Like that desire to attempt something that you might not be good at because

10:27 it's exposed or because everyone will see

10:30 it or because everyone will hear about it.

10:32 Talking about attempting things.

10:33 I mean, you're currently studying, right?

10:34 You're learning.

10:36 Yes.

10:36 Yes.

10:37 Well, two things I want to say there is I think in a way

10:40 I was sort of I mean I'm

10:42 someone who's always cared about vulnerability and authenticity,

10:46 but I think I was also forced into it to a degree that that maybe even I wasn't

10:52 ready for and that like I just started so

10:55 young that like I had to learn in public.

10:58 I had to make mistakes in public and say, "Oh, okay.

11:02 Now I've learned this." And I had to be willing to go back and be like,

11:06 hm, like there was some gaps here.

11:10 Um, and here's what I know now.

11:12 And I think people's I agree with you.

11:15 I think it's becoming increasingly difficult

11:16 to learn in public and continuing to learn.

11:19 I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why

11:21 I I have gone back to school and why I

11:24 continue to do it is because I want to make

11:26 sure that I have things to say that are worth saying.

11:30 And I think you can only do that if you take

11:34 a minute sometimes and listen to some people who aren't you,

11:40 you know, like not just the sound of my own my own wonderful voice.

11:44 Um, so yeah, it's been it's been great.

11:47 And I think also I needed to I wanted to be inspired.

11:50 I think being around my favorite piece has been

11:53 being around young people who still believe that the world

11:56 is malleable and things are changeable and that like

12:01 anything can be done is um such important energy.

12:06 There's so much dystopian fiction at the moment and dystopian movies so dark.

12:12 It's so dark and I'm just like what happened to thinking about the utopia?

12:16 What happened to like planning for the best case scenario?

12:19 like where where did we lose yeah vision

12:24 excitement imagination possibility so I think it's been

12:28 um yeah it's been wonderful to be around

12:32 young people and just to sit there and listen

12:36 do you ever I mean you clearly read so much do you have

12:40 to take yourself away to do it in order to be able to do

12:42 it do you have to cordon off time like how are you still

12:46 managing to study and learn because that seems like it's important to you Yeah.

12:49 You you reminded me as you were talking

12:50 of one of my spiritual teachers, my monk teacher,

12:53 who always said to me, if you want to move three steps forward,

12:56 you have to go three steps deep first.

13:00 Whoa.

12:59 And what I found often in my life is I'm trying

13:01 to go four steps forward and I haven't yet gone four steps deep.

13:06 And so it's almost like I mean this is probably a a terrible analogy,

13:09 but maybe thinking of the movie The Substance.

13:11 I don't know if you watched it.

13:13 Okay, fine.

13:14 Okay.

13:14 Terrible.

13:14 Let's let's remove No, no, no.

13:16 Let's forget about it.

13:17 But but it's that idea of like every extra step you take

13:21 when you haven't learned and you haven't experimented and you haven't attempted

13:26 is taking away from your ability to move forward.

13:28 And sometimes I think when we feel stuck or when

13:31 we think things are not moving or they're not progressing.

13:35 You may be a sign to say well pause and go

13:37 deeper for a second or pause and go inward for a second.

13:40 And so to me, hearing that from you,

13:43 I I find that and and I'm I definitely fail at this all the time.

13:48 There are so many times I'm trying to push more forward than I've gone deep.

13:52 And so whenever I notice that myself and I notice

13:54 that I'm just kind of trying everything and nothing is working,

13:58 it's actually just the universe and self saying to me, go read, go study.

14:04 And so I found that I've had to really carve

14:06 out time to make time to do what I love,

14:10 which is to read and study.

14:11 But I found that I'm someone who doesn't love 30 minutes a day.

14:15 I'm not that kind of a reader.

14:16 I'm someone who needs to read for 3 or 4 hours, if not more.

14:20 And so I found that carving out deep immersive time is more

14:24 important to me than this kind of mechanical 30 40 minutes a day,

14:28 which is great for you if that works for you as a habit.

14:30 It doesn't bit of an extremist and I just need to spend a whole weekend reading

14:36 as opposed to I don't need to read every day.

14:39 So I'll try and I try once a month on a weekend

14:43 to just absorb into a subject that I love and I'll take a course,

14:47 I'll go to a class, I'll watch a TED talk online,

14:49 I'll read as many books as I can and I try and immerse myself that way.

14:53 What's your learning style?

14:55 I'm the same as you.

14:56 And actually u someone who I really respect and ask

14:58 for advice for often and I ask for feedback on on myself.

15:03 He said to me, Emma,

15:06 I think if you did 90% of what you wanted to do at 50% of the speed,

15:12 you would get so much more like life would be so much better.

15:17 And I was like, "Wow,

15:19 50% of the speed and only 90% of what I want to do." And he was like,

15:23 I think that's the minimum to be honest.

15:25 And I was like, wow.

15:27 But I think it, yeah, what you said resonates.

15:30 I think I often have to remind

15:32 myself that it's not about speedily getting somewhere.

15:36 It's just not the point.

15:38 Things are supposed to happen um with a certain timing.

15:42 And so um yeah, resonates.

15:46 And and to your point, I cannot just sit for 30 minutes and look at something.

15:50 I need I need kind of like a week on holiday

15:53 and then I'll start to deeply get into something and I need

15:56 quiet and I hyperfocus and I that's when I you know I

16:02 love it but I can't I can't do little itty bitty bits.

16:06 It drives me nuts.

16:07 It just doesn't work for me.

16:08 It doesn't work.

16:09 So it doesn't work for me.

16:10 Resates.

16:11 You said that you felt that you had

16:12 to learn in public and then you made mistakes.

16:14 Like what were mistakes that felt like mistakes then

16:18 that made you feel like oh gosh I made that mistake

16:20 in public but I was 10 years old or whatever it was

16:23 and now you look back and you think oh you know I was able to process it.

16:27 Yeah.

16:27 I I think the big one was feminism

16:31 and intersectional feminism and frankly it just like wasn't taught.

16:38 you know, I had to really seek out and I'm

16:41 really grateful actually that I was in many ways

16:44 quite lovingly called in as opposed to I mean some

16:48 of it was not but I think that was definitely

16:53 a moment where I had to say okay I'm talking

16:57 about something really big and important and it's actually really

17:01 important to sit this in some context which I have

17:04 not done and I think that was a big moment.

17:08 I think it was more there was an omission that was there

17:12 was things that were missing as opposed to I had said something wrong.

17:16 I just needed I just needed to fill in more gaps.

17:20 And so um that was when I started or that was actually in the middle.

17:24 I had a I had a feminist book club called Art Shad Shelf.

17:28 And um so that was part of those conversations.

17:31 But it was a good moment for me

17:34 to learn that feeling uncomfortable sometimes is good.

17:39 I think we have an alarm system that goes off which is like I'm uncomfortable.

17:43 This feels uncomfortable.

17:44 So something bad must be happening and I must leave as soon as possible.

17:49 And actually I think that was when I started to learn,

17:51 oh actually me being uncomfortable in a space um might be

17:55 a good sign because it might mean I'm about to learn something.

17:59 And I want to attribute this that was Mara Larasai who who

18:03 helped me understand that and uh was a very very valuable teaching.

18:07 So now when I'm in a space and listening to things and I feel

18:11 uncomfortable I don't think it means I

18:14 need to bolt or something bad's happening.

18:18 Yeah.

18:17 Maybe something really good is about to happen.

18:21 Yeah.

18:21 Yeah.

18:21 And I feel like that goes back to what

18:22 we started with this idea of attempting means discomfort

18:27 and attempting means incomplete.

18:30 Yeah.

18:29 In that and I love I love that point you made

18:31 that actually whenever we're sharing anything it's not that it's not true.

18:35 It's that it's not complete.

18:38 Yes.

18:37 And mostly when we see people say things or

18:40 share ideas, it's very rare to have anyone ever share a complete idea because

18:46 that means they would have had to think

18:47 about it from every single vantage point.

18:49 Yeah.

18:50 which is not even humanly possible.

18:53 It's not possible.

18:54 It's not possible.

18:55 And I think Adrien Marie Brown, I don't know if you've ever had,

18:58 she's she wrote an amazing book which um is one

19:02 of her more recent ones which is called Loving Corrections.

19:05 and she speaks to kind of exactly this, which

19:09 is there's kind of this like that we

19:14 see online when people don't attribute something perfectly

19:19 to someone else or they're missing something and it's like,

19:23 isn't the whole point of this that we're in conversation?

19:27 And if it's the right person, you can see that a good intention is there,

19:33 then maybe we can kind of do it in a way that doesn't need

19:37 to be I mean obviously there's there's

19:40 important time and place for holding people accountable.

19:44 Um but maybe I don't know attributing like great we're all going

19:49 to help each other kind of pad this out fill this out.

19:55 Yeah.

19:54 Yeah.

19:54 Yeah.

19:55 It's it's a hard I think that's the hard part.

19:57 It's like how do you differentiate between holding someone accountable

20:00 and giving them grace?

20:02 And that's a really interesting discussion in and of itself.

20:04 And I don't think I I have the answer or know exactly what it is,

20:08 but I feel like that's a thought exercise as humans

20:11 that if we were to do it would actually I don't know.

20:14 What's your take?

20:16 Maybe the grace is attributing good intention and the accountability

20:21 is the courage it takes to actually say something to someone.

20:26 because it's such a scary thing to do

20:29 and it often requires a lot of emotional labor

20:33 and I find this a lot as a woman when I'm especially as a woman

20:38 who's dating that like I I will just be like is it worth me explaining

20:44 is it worth me explaining this thing or should I just not take the time

20:49 to do this because sometimes I will really

20:53 I care about doing it kindly and compassionately.

20:56 And it's very rare for me to attribute bad intent to anyone, but you know,

21:01 sometimes it does fall on on deaf ears

21:04 and you're like that text message took me like 40

21:07 minutes like to word perfectly or that voice note

21:12 or whatever and you're like is this making a difference?

21:14 Like am I getting through to any is transformative justice real?

21:18 Like is this is this label worth it?

21:21 But I think I don't have a perfect answer.

21:24 I I I'm not I haven't lived through enough of it to know.

21:28 I guess I've just reached a point where

21:29 it's like I'd rather I'd rather die trying.

21:33 I'd rather die having tried.

21:35 And maybe some small piece of it, even if it's not now,

21:38 even if it's at some future point, like something I've said just like goes,

21:42 "Oh, something at the back of my mind here,

21:45 someone says something to me, then you know, maybe it's worth it." Yeah.

21:49 I will never believe that one negates the other and that my experience

21:57 of that person I don't get to keep and cherish.

22:04 I to come back to our earlier thing like

22:06 I just don't think these things are either or.

22:08 I hope people who don't agree with my opinion will love me and I

22:10 hope I can keep loving people who

22:12 I don't necessarily share the same opinion with.

22:15 And I think that's a very very important way for me

22:22 that I need to be able to move through life.

22:25 I really do believe in having conversations.

22:32 And I guess where I've landed is it's not

22:36 so much what we say or what we believe, but very often how we say it.

22:43 When you think about Little Emma, Yes.

22:45 like what was a childhood memory that you have,

22:47 a core memory that you have that you

22:49 feel has defined who you are today somewhat?

22:53 I think I won't share the specific memory cuz it's so personal,

22:56 but I think I've always felt other people's pain very intensely.

23:02 M

23:03 um until maybe recently,

23:07 I did not know how to give myself grace and navigate seeing

23:18 my sensitivity as a strength and knowing that it's like my gift,

23:26 but it also means I have to care for it in specific specific ways.

23:33 When you are given gifts,

23:35 there's often kind of have to compensate in some other ways.

23:42 And in the same way that like my position

23:46 in life and fame has given me this extraordinary power,

23:48 it's also given me a lot of responsibility.

23:51 And these things often have these kind of I don't know when or why it started,

23:56 but I think I've always whoever it was that was suffering in the room,

24:02 I was always the most aware of them.

24:05 And I think that has formed a lot of why I could act.

24:11 It was almost like I was kind of sucking all of this in and then

24:15 I needed to let it out somewhere or unleash it somewhere.

24:20 And I remember when my parents saw me on stage for the first time afterwards,

24:25 they were just like, "Where did that come from?

24:28 You don't have any of these experiences."

24:31 I recorded a song for my 12th birthday.

24:33 My mom bought me a day in a recording studio.

24:36 And I sing Natalie and Bruy is torn.

24:38 Like I've had my heart broken 50,000 times, you know?

24:41 Like I've been married and divorced and whatever.

24:44 And I'm 12 and I've never had a boyfriend and I don't know anything about love.

24:49 Have you ever thought about where it came from or

24:52 I would imagine I I can't say for sure.

24:55 I would imagine that my family structure

25:01 has not been a traditional family structure.

25:03 And that feeling of knowing that I'm from a situation where

25:11 we just don't quite fit the kind of nuclear family mold.

25:14 And I think coming back from France and trying to figure

25:18 out how to sort of integrate and being the eldest and having

25:24 my younger brother and having my mom and like trying to sort

25:29 of be some sort of glue or holding together for everyone's feelings.

25:35 I'm pretty sure that's probably where it that's where it started.

25:40 Yeah.

25:40 Um, and then I guess just being aware

25:43 of other people who might feel the way I did,

25:47 which is like, who else in here doesn't feel like they quite fit?

25:51 I've always found that it took me a while to recognize, but when I did,

25:55 it was so helpful that a lot of what I

25:57 do today is because I mediated my parents' marriage growing up.

26:01 And so I developed all these skills of listening and empathy and grace

26:05 and compassion because I was doing it for two people that I loved.

26:09 Yes.

26:09 And I see it as a strength and yes it comes with it comes with certain things

26:13 for sure it comes you're absolutely right but at the same

26:16 time I've always seen it as a strength

26:19 and it's something that has served me well

26:20 in my marriage it's served me well in my relationships

26:25 and at the same time it has certain

26:28 consequences that that that make you different or or make you process

26:32 things differently and so and I remember one thing you shared with me

26:36 that I was reading it you you said,

26:38 "I used to spend my weekdays with mom and my weekends with dad."

26:43 And you said it almost felt like you were changing costumes sometimes.

26:47 Yes.

26:47 And they're all like this two lives kind of thing.

26:49 Yes.

26:50 Yes.

26:50 And and I feel that's so relatable.

26:52 I feel like so many people can relate to that.

26:53 Whether whether their family was more traditional or wasn't,

26:57 I think every child has had this feeling of not fitting in quite and not

27:00 knowing which life they're meant to lead and that feels like it's kind of

27:05 Yes.

27:05 played into yours.

27:06 Yes, for sure.

27:07 I think it's also why I've had to really navigate

27:11 my relationship towards art and acting because I'm pretty sure

27:16 that I was using acting as a way of escaping

27:19 how painful um my parents like it wasn't just the divorce.

27:26 It was just like the continuing situation of living between two

27:31 different houses and two different lives and two different sets of values.

27:35 And as a child like being aware of like

27:38 hm we don't quite have the support we need

27:41 here for this like this is not quite we're

27:44 not quite like and I think it does it makes

27:49 you it made me a slightly serious child because

27:57 I was like had that consciousness and then when

28:00 I would go and spend the weekend with my dad

28:04 it was like a very different set of rules,

28:07 very different situation and so you do you kind of like

28:12 and I think everyone can relate to this to an extent

28:14 that it's not that you are be like wanting

28:17 to become different people but it's you there are different

28:20 expectations of you in different places that you understand

28:23 that you need to fill and so I think some

28:26 of that split then became I was like okay wow you

28:32 know my parents have very different views views on different things.

28:35 And the hard part of that was that no one gave me any easy answers.

28:40 It meant I had to form all

28:41 of my own opinions myself because there was no consensus.

28:45 And it made me a critical thinker for sure because

28:49 and so that was amazing and also really like gosh, okay,

28:54 I need to decide what I think is important in life and what my opinions are.

29:00 No one's handing me this.

29:02 Yeah.

29:02 Maybe it also made me aware of um not wanting to be so split as well

29:09 and why it's been important to me to try to remain whole.

29:15 Yeah.

29:15 In all the different circumstances of my life

29:17 and ask myself questions about how I can

29:19 do that best because I think I experienced as a child that the split is painful.

29:25 Like if you're living a reality one way but presenting something else,

29:31 those are the moments when it can it can you can really feel torn apart.

29:35 And I I recognized that and I didn't want that to be my life.

29:41 I didn't want pretend to be my real life.

29:48 Yeah.

29:48 I mean that's so I I I can so relate to you personally

29:52 on the idea of not having a blueprint and having to create my own.

29:58 Yeah.

29:58 And how often when you don't have a blueprint, you feel you have two choices.

30:02 And that's where you feel torn.

30:04 Whereas when you look at it as a whole and go,

30:06 okay, well now I get to craft my own narrative from this

30:10 and I may take a few pieces from here and a few

30:12 pieces from here and I'm going to form my own puzzle.

30:15 But I don't have to choose a path.

30:16 Yeah,

30:17 it's really beautiful when you do it,

30:19 but it's really hard because it just feels like there are two impact,

30:27 you know, your work.

30:27 And you you said there,

30:28 you said that one thing you mentioned that really

30:30 stood out to me was you felt that acting

30:33 was in some way escaping that kind of which version do I have to be?

30:38 And I think so much of what we do

30:40 for work or so much of what we pursue as humans

30:43 is based on something we're trying to build, create,

30:47 maybe escape from, maybe to reveal something.

30:49 And I think we haven't often looked at work that way.

30:52 Like sometimes we choose a career because

30:54 we know it will make our parents happy.

30:55 And so we're living a pattern or sometimes you choose something

30:58 because it breaks the pattern that you were growing up in.

31:01 And it it's fascinating to me to look at that.

31:03 for you, you were acting in school plays since you were a a young girl.

31:09 And was acting always something you were going to do,

31:11 or did do you feel like it was this cross-section of what was happening

31:15 in your personal life that actually made

31:17 that feel like the direction you would choose?

31:19 I think it's so interesting that you said those words, reveal and escape,

31:24 that that they kind of the same thing because

31:28 I think that it all started with a poem.

31:31 I did a poetry competition when I

31:33 was nine called the Daisy Pratt poetry competition.

31:36 And I'm actually naturally quite a shy person.

31:40 Uh and so actually for me to stand up

31:43 in front of people feels like an out-of- body experience.

31:46 Like there's so much adrenaline coursing through my veins

31:50 that it does feel like a moment outside of time.

31:54 And I remember the exhilaration of living

32:02 the kind of ups and downs of this poem.

32:06 And maybe because there wasn't space to have conversations or express

32:13 myself at that time in the way that I needed to.

32:16 I did it through performance.

32:18 And I also did it as a way of getting to feel free for a moment of of what I

32:25 was like the discomfort of that time of not quite

32:29 knowing who I was or how to be in the world.

32:33 And as I've become more healed and whole and and more comfortable being myself,

32:42 it's been interesting to ask myself, do you still need acting?

32:46 do you still need to act?

32:48 Like why what are you doing that for?

32:53 And like the kind of it used to feel like

32:55 almost like a compulsion that I needed to do it.

32:57 And what's really interesting now is I don't feel

33:00 quite that kind of urgency of needing to do it.

33:04 And I wonder if it's because actually I have

33:09 spaces where I can now take some of those feelings

33:13 and talk about some of the things I I don't think I had space to to voice

33:19 in in

33:20 without doing it on camera in front of thousands of people.

33:24 Yeah.

33:24 Yeah.

33:24 Which which is which is scary in its own way, right?

33:26 It's like it's easy to

33:28 it's easy to think, "Oh, that makes sense." But then it's like,

33:30 well, no, it's it's really challenging

33:33 to do that second part.

33:36 Yeah.

33:35 Even even if it makes sense rationally or logically.

33:38 And was was that what in in 2019 when you kind of pulled away

33:43 was your reason I want to heal and work on myself

33:46 or was it actually I don't feel a compulsion anymore?

33:49 Like was that the inflection point of

33:52 doing some self work or was that the inflection point of need to pause?

33:56 I realized I was drawing on painful stuff in my life that I was actually healing

34:02 and I didn't want to keep revisiting in order to do some of the more intense,

34:08 scarier, sadder things that I had to do.

34:11 I realized I remember by Beth's um deathbed

34:19 by her by her graveside when we shot those films.

34:22 Like normally there are like these painful

34:24 memories that I would use for those moments.

34:26 And I realized I was like I don't know if

34:30 this is super great for me actually to keep to keep revisiting

34:35 these or if I want to use these as my tools

34:38 and I don't think that means I'll never come back to acting.

34:41 I think it just meant I was like hm

34:43 I wonder if there's a different way to do this.

34:46 Mhm.

34:47 I think the second thing was to be really honest.

34:50 I was coming to those sets with an expectation

34:55 that I think I had developed on Harry Potter,

34:58 which was that we were the people I worked with were going

35:01 to be my family and that we were going to be lifelong friends.

35:06 I came to work looking for friendship and that was a very

35:11 painful experience for me outside of Harry Potter and in Hollywood.

35:16 like bonebreakingly painful.

35:20 Um because most people don't come to those environments looking for friendships.

35:24 They're looking for this is my chance.

35:28 This is my role.

35:29 This is what I want out of it.

35:31 I'm focused.

35:33 This is my job.

35:34 This is my career.

35:36 Like let's go.

35:38 And I was not of that mindset.

35:41 And so I found I found the rejection really painful.

35:47 The friendship rejection.

35:48 Yeah.

35:48 Yeah.

35:48 Of like I re I was like I I think it's so unusual

35:53 to make a set of films for 12 years and we were a community.

35:58 Like we we really were.

36:00 And so I took that as an exploitation into my into my other

36:05 workplaces and I just got my I just got my ass kicked.

36:09 I really did.

36:10 Was it competition?

36:11 Was it envy?

36:12 Was it just hierarchy?

36:13 Was it I think it was a combination.

36:15 It was a molotov cocktail of all of the above.

36:19 As we mentioned earlier, I'm just not thick skinned.

36:23 Maybe I just wasn't built for those kinds of highly competitive environments.

36:29 It Yeah, it broke me.

36:31 Yeah.

36:37 But in a way, I'm proud that it did because

36:40 I guess that means I have something left to break.

36:42 I have a heart left to break.

36:46 So, it was a hard learning,

36:50 but I think there's something that I'm proud

36:56 of in a way that there were certain things I couldn't withstand.

37:02 I'd much rather keep my humanity.

37:12 Think there might be a tissue.

37:14 I'm managing to like inside.

37:17 You need it.

37:18 There is a tissue.

37:18 That's really No, but I really appreciate you saying that and and I

37:22 I mean it's so powerful to hear how you've processed it.

37:26 like just what you added there cuz when when I saw

37:29 your voice change and and just when you were expressing it

37:33 and and it and it hit me as you said it and I felt it and then the way

37:38 you reflected on it kind of helped that feeling

37:41 rise really beautifully because what you said is so

37:45 true that if you were broken by a frequency

37:49 of envy and competition and whatever else it was

37:54 that's only proof that you were vibrating in a way

37:58 that didn't want to be pulled down into that.

38:01 And it's so interesting though how when we

38:04 break to those sorts of emotions and ideas,

38:08 we feel we're the weak one.

38:11 Yeah.

38:11 When it's completely the opposite.

38:13 That was that was the most painful thing was I thought I I beat

38:19 myself up for years afterwards really thinking

38:23 like punishing myself saying you couldn't hack it, you weren't strong enough.

38:29 And yeah, what what bliss and what peace

38:33 I think to understand that to have come out

38:38 on top would have been a greater failure I

38:45 think in terms of who I actually care about being.

38:50 Yeah.

38:50 It's almost like if you abandoned yourself in that moment

38:53 in order to align with that new way of thinking.

38:59 Yeah.

38:59 You'd probably beat yourself up more long term and have a much harder time.

39:04 Yes, I think so.

39:06 I don't know.

39:06 I've just got to this place where it's just if it costs me any part of my piece,

39:11 it's just too expensive.

39:13 And of course, like there's opportunities that I think,

39:19 wow, like that would be amazing.

39:21 And I care deeply about my work.

39:27 Um, but I think it's just I think I just used to completely

39:35 sacrifice myself for whatever the thing was I was trying to achieve.

39:39 And that could be a grade, it could be a movie, it could be promoting.

39:44 I just was obsessed with excellence and doing everything,

39:48 giving my all to everything and doing it to the best of my ability.

39:51 And unless you have the right people around you

39:54 that can hold that kind of level of commitment, you're going to get smashed up.

40:00 You're just going to get crushed.

40:02 And so I think now it's just a case of me being like,

40:05 okay, I know that for me to do anything,

40:09 I have to have people in the room that care about me

40:12 more than whatever the product is or whatever the final product is.

40:16 And if that isn't the case,

40:19 I cannot be there because I'm just someone who like gives it all.

40:25 It's how I'm built.

40:26 And I think understanding that makeup of myself and not

40:31 punishing myself for that, but just knowing it needs

40:35 certain kinds of conditions is how I've come to hopefully

40:41 I'll keep doing it forever and probably every day, but accepting myself.

40:46 Yeah, it seems like I' I've spoken to so

40:48 many and we were talking about this last week

40:50 when we were when we were speaking on the phone

40:52 that I I've worked with so many young people,

40:56 musicians who who've all been told like, "All right,

40:59 if you don't do this over the next 12 months, you're not going to make it."

41:03 Yeah.

41:02 Or like if you don't do this right now,

41:04 if you don't say yes to this song or this movie,

41:07 it's like you might as well wave it goodbye.

41:09 You're never going to get the Oscar or the whatever

41:12 it may be or the Grammy or whatever it is.

41:14 And I can't imagine being a young person like I'm 37 now and it's you process

41:21 ideas like that differently.

41:22 Yeah.

41:23 But if you're in your teens or even 20s there's and maybe even 30s,

41:29 but you process those statements with so much gravitas,

41:33 especially when it's someone of influence and power saying it to you.

41:37 Yeah.

41:37 It feels like being surrounded by people who really believe in you

41:40 and your longevity and your art versus But that's hard to find.

41:44 It is.

41:45 It's hard to find.

41:47 And you know, I I I had a wonderful team.

41:52 Like I I really did.

41:54 I think it's just like understanding that no one at the end of the day

41:58 is going to be in the room like when you're actually doing the thing.

42:02 You have to carry that moment and you have to carry that pressure.

42:06 Also, making films, the hours on them are so demanding that to have

42:12 your own life alongside that, to have that balance is almost impossible.

42:19 It's so all or nothing.

42:20 It's so all-encompassing, especially if you're in a lead role.

42:24 Um, you kind of go through these, you know, working six days a week,

42:30 14 to 16 hour days, and then you're just kind of dropped off at the end of it.

42:34 and maybe you'll have a 2 or 3 month

42:36 gap and then there's just kind of like nothing.

42:38 And so you're like riding this like

42:40 incredible peak of like adrenaline and cortisol

42:43 and then you just get like dropped off

42:45 the edge and then you're like, "Okay, wait,

42:47 now I have to be a functioning human again

42:49 and I have to like figure out how to be

42:52 a person in the real world." And I think some

42:57 of those extremes then force an actor to either decide,

43:02 well, I'm going to back to back it,

43:04 so I'm going to basically go from one movie to the next,

43:06 and that's going to be my full life.

43:09 Or you have to navigate these huge impacts on your nervous system

43:15 that you need a system and a support system to help you navigate.

43:19 And I think it's why addiction and mental illness

43:26 in my profession and in a lot of high stress,

43:29 high profile professions is so common place because you're

43:33 trying to balance out these enormous chemical ups and downs.

43:41 Yeah.

43:41 talk talk to people about why because I think from the outside

43:45 when someone sees a red carpet

43:47 or when someone sees an event it looks really glamorous like

43:50 until I ever attended anything and you know I I always

43:54 looked at it as like oh my gosh it's so glamorous

43:56 and everyone's there and everyone must be friends and everyone must

43:59 know each other because they all you know but but then

44:02 you're not saying that and neither is and and anytime I've

44:05 ever been on a red carpet everyone's anxious and everyone's nervous

44:09 and that's the real experience People are almost waiting to leave.

44:12 Yes.

44:13 And some people do the red carpet and leave immediately,

44:14 but but what's going on there?

44:16 Like walk us through like for people who may not

44:19 I think the first step is to just understand even though you're

44:23 wearing an incredibly glamorous dress and you're there to do something exciting,

44:27 I don't think there's anything that can make it not

44:30 weird that people are screaming at the top of their lungs.

44:35 Like it it just everything in your body says something's wrong.

44:40 like people are screaming something's wrong.

44:44 But then you have to try to pretend as though

44:48 this is all normal and you're unfased.

44:50 So you have like two things going on.

44:52 One, you're like navigating this like sensory overload that's like telling you,

44:58 oh my god, something is really wrong.

45:00 Telling you how to pose, telling you where to look, telling you

45:03 Yeah.

45:03 So, so you're trying to navigate, okay, something feels wrong,

45:07 but I need to also simultaneously make it seem as though I am

45:11 the most graceful and the most calm I've ever been in my whole life.

45:15 And I need to like pose for this person and there's 50 different cameras

45:20 and I need to make sure that I look perfectly into each and every one.

45:23 And I probably would have had four different notes from the stylist about

45:27 how I'm supposed to stand and what I need to do for the dress.

45:30 And then I've got like 25 different talking points from the movie of like

45:35 what I need to get across and also avoid saying or talking about.

45:40 And so like you need to be thinking about that.

45:42 And the the juggle is crazy.

45:44 And then I think everyone is in this like kind of jumped up state.

45:52 And so like trying to have a normal conversation with anyone

45:55 is basically impossible because you feel like an insane person.

45:59 And so these are not environments in which

46:02 you like have a nice chat with someone really.

46:05 I mean, maybe if you're really lucky and you've worked

46:07 with someone for a long time and you've established some trust,

46:10 but I think that was the other thing that was like

46:12 really difficult about movies and what like I kind of laugh at.

46:16 Well, not not in a mean way.

46:17 I don't but like you know you always

46:20 get asked when you're like promoting these big films

46:22 like so do you guys hang out on set and like do you guys hang out and like

46:25 are you all friends and everyone sort of like

46:27 nods enthusiastically but the truth is no one

46:30 has seen each other outside of work like very

46:32 very very rarely mostly because the schedule is insane.

46:36 Everyone's so tired that when they get any

46:38 time off you're going straight back to your hotel

46:40 room to try to like claw in any piece of rest that you possibly can.

46:45 And like I don't know like it friendships require time

46:51 and trust and presence and those things like very rarely come about.

46:56 They they can and they like do occasionally but it it's more

46:59 of a more of a you know solar eclipse than a than an everyday situation.

47:06 So yeah, but you have to pretend.

47:09 I think that's the part that starts to feel icky after a while

47:12 is like you you have to pretend that you're all best friends.

47:15 And what's so sad and and I I know this isn't just the case for me,

47:19 but like I think people wish they were.

47:22 I think we wish we did have those real

47:25 connections and we did have that real support.

47:27 And so having to pretend that something exists

47:30 that you actually really want but don't have is like

47:35 it's like pretty grainy in the wound, you know?

47:38 It's like it's pretty like tough pill to swallow to have

47:41 to act out something that you wish were real but isn't real.

47:45 Yeah.

47:44 Um and I think that's the part that starts to kind of Yeah.

47:48 I can only speak for myself but those are

47:51 definitely the moments where I've been like this feels dark.

47:54 Like is anyone else like this feels dark?

47:58 Um,

47:59 yeah.

48:00 And and there's such a real reminder that it's still work.

48:04 And it's almost like asking anyone who works at any company and saying, "Hey,

48:07 do you hang out with your team after

48:09 work every night?" And the answer is probably no.

48:12 Yeah.

48:12 No.

48:12 Everyone's go home to their family.

48:14 And maybe you've got a couple, of course, you got a couple of friends at work.

48:16 And it's wonderful if you have a friend at work

48:18 that you work out with or see after hours,

48:21 but you're not hanging out as the whole crew.

48:23 It's it's very unlikely.

48:25 100%.

48:25 and and it and it is that reality check of no but this is also just work

48:30 and their character stories are not their personal

48:33 stories and it doesn't and that's why I

48:35 wanted to go back you mentioned that you

48:37 talked about how Harry Potter had a family feel

48:41 and I wanted to ask you like how did that come about in the first like what what

48:44 was where where did the auditions come from like

48:46 how did that become a part of your life

48:49 yes so I did not go to a performing arts school I'd never done anything.

48:55 I never acted professionally, but they came they they did like a basically

49:01 countrywide search to find Harry, Hermione, and Ron.

49:05 And so they asked my school if they wanted

49:08 to submit any students who love drama who wanted to audition.

49:13 And so I was one of I think about

49:16 12 students that was asked if I wanted to audition.

49:20 I don't know.

49:20 It was weird.

49:21 I had this weird weighted fated sense of destiny pretty much

49:28 from the moment that that they said they mentioned the audition.

49:34 I remember I brought I think maybe like

49:38 seven different Beanie Babies with me along and like

49:40 all these different like lucky talismans and I

49:44 loved the world and the books so much.

49:46 My dad had been reading them to me before bed when

49:49 I would spend the weekends with him and on long car journeys.

49:52 We'd often drive back and forwards to France

49:54 and that's how the time would be passed.

49:57 And so I was just like loved the world, loved her.

50:03 And for me it wasn't so much about acting so much as it

50:08 was that like I just the books meant so much to me personally.

50:16 Did you feel like it was destiny for you or did it

50:18 feel like did you always feel like it was going to be this?

50:21 I always

50:21 because obviously the books were already you know

50:24 I always felt like Hermione was I knew I was

50:29 never auditioning for anything else like I knew it was her.

50:32 I don't know.

50:33 I don't know how to explain it.

50:35 Something felt right about it.

50:37 And my yeah, my poor parents because if I hadn't have got it,

50:44 I think they knew her crush.

50:45 I ended up doing nine auditions over a period of over a year and a half,

50:50 which for a 9-year-old is

50:52 a lot of work,

50:52 a massive commitment, but I was I loved her.

50:59 I loved it.

51:00 I really did.

51:02 What do you wish now that you would have known before you became Hermione?

51:08 I did a pretty good job and I'm

51:12 actually I give my mother specifically credit for this.

51:16 She was like a warrior for my normaly and for me having

51:24 an ordinary life and going to school and no one wanted that.

51:29 I mean, it would have been considerably easier

51:32 if I had not continued going to school.

51:35 Um, but she, wow, like I will forever be in her debt.

51:42 She somehow knew that me feeling part of the ordinary world and feeling I had

51:50 a place in it and that I belonged

51:53 outside of those films was going to be crucial.

51:56 Wow, that's really incredible.

51:58 It was because she basically didn't have anyone on her team.

52:02 She was kind of on her own on that one.

52:05 And she fought tooth and nail.

52:07 She was like on the phone for hours saying she has to sit her exams.

52:12 She has to go back.

52:13 Like she needs to be here.

52:14 She she needs to have some parts of a normal childhood.

52:18 And yeah, forever in her debt.

52:23 That's so special to have had that.

52:25 And have those Yeah.

52:27 to have a parent who who can foresee

52:30 like and you can't see anything for yourself.

52:32 You're Yeah.

52:33 No.

52:33 And to be honest, I didn't really I didn't really get it if I'm going to be

52:37 I was like okay like I guess it's

52:40 important like you know I didn't really get it.

52:43 So I think

52:45 yeah she was amazing.

52:47 Yeah.

52:47 When when did because from what I was reading

52:49 from what you shared with me I was when did

52:52 Emma you Emma Watson and Hermione and the characters

52:57 that then followed start to get blurred and intertwined because

53:03 that expectation that comes with I I remember this and I and I

53:08 share it because to to give it to context to people I

53:11 was walking down the road with one of my friends who's an actor

53:14 who gets recognized a hundred times for every one time might get recognized.

53:18 So, just put in contact.

53:19 And so, if we're walking down like this person get

53:22 stopped 100 times for pictures and then I'll get stopped once.

53:27 And it was really beautiful cuz we we'd spent a day together and that person

53:30 had been stopped 100 times and maybe I've been stopped a couple of times.

53:33 And then they said something to me.

53:34 They said, "Jay, Jay, you're really lucky." And I said,

53:37 "What do you mean?" And and I thought they were going to say,

53:40 "Because I'm I'm anonymous to some degree." But they didn't.

53:45 He he said to me, he goes, "Jay, you're really lucky because he goes,

53:47 "When people stop me, they stop me for who I play to be.

53:52 And when they stop you,

53:52 they stop you for who you are." And it was

53:55 really encouraging words from someone that I respect a lot.

53:58 And I was like, "Wow." Like, I never thought about it like that.

54:00 I just I just it hadn't hit me how different it was.

54:05 And because I think you just see

54:08 fame or success or whatever is this one big bubble of of stuff,

54:11 especially when you're not that close to it, you don't know too much about it.

54:14 And it was that conversation that made me even be even more

54:18 personal with everyone that I ever spoke to because they'd always have

54:21 a personal story or and and that's not not to say

54:24 that isn't true for music and for acting and of course there is.

54:27 I don't want to take away from it.

54:29 No.

54:29 No.

54:29 Um and I'm not saying that as a egotistical statement.

54:33 I'm saying it as like how hard it is for an individual to go through that.

54:40 Yes.

54:39 And to be disassociated from themselves.

54:42 Yes.

54:42 Uh because that role could be a part of you.

54:45 It could be an expression of you.

54:47 It was a part of your life at a certain period of time,

54:49 but of course it isn't you.

54:52 Yes.

54:52 Um but does that make any sense?

54:53 I remember when I gave my UN speech about

54:57 he for she and about feminism and women's rights

55:01 and people started stopping me because of things that I

55:07 had come from me and that I had said.

55:09 It felt like a very significant transition for me because I

55:14 for the first time I felt like I could look someone in the eye

55:17 and receive and accept something that they were saying because I I felt

55:20 like it actually had something to do with me and I wasn't just kind

55:24 of a like a custodian of something sacred which I did take very

55:28 seriously and I still do but it had been a direct transmission from me

55:33 and I think that's why writing has become so important to me is

55:37 because it's a way that I say things directly and that feels really meaningful.

55:43 Yeah, I love I love the word you just used there of the difference

55:46 between being a custodian and you know

55:50 direct transmission you said and and that's

55:53 such an interesting way to think about it and I think each and every

55:56 one of us don't want to be known as a lawyer or an accountant

55:59 or a doctor or a like that yes that's a part of us and it's

56:03 a role we play in society and it of course brings significance and value

56:08 and worth and all of these wonderful things but I think everyone wants

56:11 to be something beyond that And no one wants to be that in their home.

56:15 And no one wants to be that with their friends.

56:17 And

56:18 no one no one want and and me included, by the way.

56:20 It's like I I try and me and my f

56:23 one of my friends who's a who's a well-known stand-up comic,

56:25 we always joke about how he hates to be asked to tell jokes on command

56:31 and and I try with my friends to not say smart.

56:34 I try not to say thoughtful revelatory things because of my friends.

56:38 I just want to be like I I don't want

56:40 to have to coach someone's marriage or solve their thing.

56:44 I I don't want to do that.

56:45 Like I I just want to be and and so even

56:48 for someone who love who is doing direct transmission a lot

56:51 more of the time even then there's a feeling of well

56:54 I don't want to say anything profound in this conversation.

56:56 I need to put this down.

56:57 Yeah.

56:58 I need to put the one down.

56:59 Right.

57:00 Yes.

57:00 Yeah.

57:01 I think a big piece of me like understanding again

57:05 like why I needed to take a minute is that like

57:09 even being the person who was promoting the work became

57:14 a kind of role like Emma Watson became this like avatar

57:19 this this person that I identified with but also kind

57:23 of didn't she'd become reproduced so many times over and and kind

57:29 of had become so loaded by all of this different

57:32 stuff that I she almost felt too heavy to carry.

57:35 Like I kind of was like I don't even know if I can if I can be that anymore.

57:41 Like I like you know I went on a date like

57:45 2 years ago and like it was the best confession ever.

57:48 But I was like messaging this person.

57:50 And they were like, "Emma," and he was like, "Can I just say something?

57:52 Like, Emma Watson makes me anxious." And I was like,

57:54 "Emma Watson makes me anxious, too.

57:57 That's so good." Are on the same page.

58:00 Like, I get it.

58:01 Like,

58:02 I I can't even be her.

58:04 I I don't know how to be her.

58:06 Live up to to what I look like on the cover of a magazine.

58:10 I don't look like that.

58:11 Like, I I can't I don't know.

58:14 I don't even know how to touch what that person's become.

58:18 That was kind of a funny realization at some point where I was like,

58:22 I really need to step off this thing cuz I just once you've I don't

58:27 know there's such a glamorization that comes

58:30 hand inhand with being a public famous person, especially if you're a woman,

58:34 like I feel I feel so envious of my male

58:39 co-stars who can just put on a t-shirt and show up

58:42 without like this like whole rigma roll of kind of becoming

58:48 being acceptable enough to be on camera and like kudos

58:53 to Pamela Anderson recently just like doing the thing because

58:56 it's like the amount of courage it will have taken

58:59 to do that like I cannot even begin to express

59:01 to you it's wild the the expectations are insane it's impossible so

59:12 short on vacation

59:14 private space yeah just the the the the the beauty expectations are

59:20 so difficult to reach and the bar gets raised all the time.

59:23 So, it's like you're on this constantly like I don't know,

59:28 it's like a some sort of like like Survivors Island

59:32 game show beauty nightmare where you know, I don't know.

59:38 It's it's it's nuts.

59:39 So I Yeah, I think part of also not feeling like Emma Watson is

59:45 just like the whole like glam squad culture of of it all is it's intense.

59:54 It's yeah it's so fascinating because there's

59:56 almost like this this learning of becoming

1:00:00 you know becoming Emma Watson becoming you know being

1:00:03 all the roles you play and then it almost feels

1:00:05 like what you're saying is there was a moment

1:00:07 you wanted to step off and unlearn what that meant.

1:00:13 Totally.

1:00:12 But that seems really hard.

1:00:16 Yes.

1:00:17 Because

1:00:17 Yes.

1:00:17 Learning it was hard enough and then to unlearn it when it's linked to

1:00:23 your work, your finances, your worth, your friendship,

1:00:26 community, connection, all of the where you live.

1:00:30 How do you even begin to unlearn being Emma Watson?

1:00:34 It's a knotted ball you have to sort of unravel very carefully and carefully.

1:00:38 That's it.

1:00:39 Yeah.

1:00:40 Yeah.

1:00:40 I think it's not like a wrecking ball.

1:00:42 like you're not just

1:00:43 I mean some things had to be done like the wrecking ball honestly and then

1:00:48 some parts of it were like a much slower more gentle teasing out but I

1:00:54 mean I don't know if you find this but I imagine that a lot

1:00:58 of your friendships are made through the podcast

1:01:01 and made through your work and there's kind of this like non-separation between

1:01:07 your home and your family and your relationship

1:01:09 and the podcast your but tied tied into that there's also like the very real

1:01:14 some people will be wanting you to reference

1:01:17 their new book or like promote something

1:01:19 for them or whatever and like navigating

1:01:22 that so many of these threads are entwined.

1:01:24 Does it ever start to feel like you're like, "Wow,

1:01:27 this is a lot." People ask me all the time,

1:01:30 "Do you ever wonder why people want to hang out with you

1:01:35 or be your friend or whatever?" And does that ever get complicated for you?

1:01:41 I think because my direct transmission is so clear,

1:01:46 that if anyone in the industry wants to connect, Yeah.

1:01:50 there's usually quite a distinct journey that they're on

1:01:55 that mine can support or help with as a friend

1:02:00 or in in a more formal capacity and

1:02:03 that I deeply enjoy and I'm grateful for because

1:02:06 people are not inviting me out to crazy parties and I'm happy.

1:02:11 Yeah, they're not.

1:02:11 Yeah.

1:02:12 They don't think I'm fun enough.

1:02:13 Yeah.

1:02:14 I just I just saw I just saw a clip

1:02:16 of the other day of Austin Butler saying he's

1:02:19 he's he does he's never been invited to a bachelor

1:02:21 party before and I was like I couldn't believe it.

1:02:24 But but that that kind of feel like I don't

1:02:26 get invited to crazy parties and and I'm grateful for that.

1:02:28 I don't that's not really a part of my life, right?

1:02:31 Unless it's a spiritual party and then then I'm

1:02:32 all game and uh uh but but there isn't that.

1:02:36 And so sometimes I think it's a good my direct

1:02:39 transmission is a good protective mechanism because I don't really

1:02:42 get asked to come to things but then at the same

1:02:44 time it takes me to get to know someone deeply.

1:02:46 Like I just traveled with a friend uh to Greece and we played and I don't

1:02:51 think they were anticipating this but we played

1:02:53 three nights of poker from midnight to 7:00 a.m.

1:02:55 and it was amazing and I loved it and I had

1:02:57 the best time and I don't think they expected me to do that.

1:03:00 They expect me to get to bed early but I was on vacation and I was like game.

1:03:04 Yeah, exactly.

1:03:05 and I won.

1:03:06 So I was like, you know, I'll take it.

1:03:07 And I'm very competitive in that way and I enjoy it.

1:03:10 And so I think what it is for me is I I think there's a big

1:03:14 thing for me has been from I grew up as part of a big community.

1:03:22 Mhm.

1:03:22 Uh in London.

1:03:24 Yeah.

1:03:23 And a big spiritual community that I became a part of when I was young.

1:03:27 And I think that what I found is it's very difficult to discern for people

1:03:31 externally and even for people in that community

1:03:34 as to how close they were to me.

1:03:37 Right.

1:03:36 And so there are some people that assume that because we sat

1:03:39 in a class together and there were 200 people in the class.

1:03:42 Yeah.

1:03:42 Yeah.

1:03:42 Yeah.

1:03:42 But now that their opinion on me or that their relationship with me is close

1:03:47 when in actuality I've never had a one-to-one conversation with that person.

1:03:51 And so now their opinion matters to the outside world.

1:03:54 It matters to the media.

1:03:55 it matters to whatever,

1:03:57 but I actually don't know that person and they don't really know me,

1:04:01 right?

1:04:01 It's just so that we went to the same congregation

1:04:03 in the same year which has lots thousands of people in it.

1:04:07 And so I struggle with that and then I also struggle with

1:04:11 people coming up to me and saying, "Oh, Jay,

1:04:12 I've known you for 20 years and you know,

1:04:14 like from back in the day at the temple

1:04:15 and but I'm like we didn't like we didn't ever have

1:04:18 an like a conversation." And I still have all my best

1:04:21 friends from that community that are still my closest friends

1:04:24 and they also feel the same way because they see it.

1:04:27 And so I think I find that very difficult.

1:04:30 Yeah, that's true.

1:04:31 Is is hard to navigate because it's not that I

1:04:33 don't have positive feelings towards people or the community or anything.

1:04:36 I do.

1:04:37 But I struggle with people feeling they know me when they never did, right?

1:04:43 But they've almost created a story within

1:04:45 their mind that they really knew me well.

1:04:48 And because it was a big community, this isn't a group of school friends

1:04:51 or something which I'm still really close with.

1:04:53 It's more this expanded community which you were just visible in, right?

1:04:57 Not even audible or

1:04:59 or if that makes any sense.

1:05:01 No, that makes perfect sense.

1:05:02 I think

1:05:03 yeah, being part of a larger community would be tricky to navigate with Yeah.

1:05:08 with the kind of I guess like being a famous person in essence is like lots

1:05:13 of people can project lots of things onto you and like if they had some level

1:05:17 of contact with you it makes those kinds

1:05:19 of projections a lot easier and then you're like

1:05:21 oh wow we're in a completely different like

1:05:24 your experience of this is so different from mine.

1:05:26 Yeah.

1:05:27 Yeah.

1:05:27 And and yeah, and I mean yours is like

1:05:29 a million x that and you know I can't imagine

1:05:33 I can't I can't imagine I can't imagine how hard dating is

1:05:36 like you talked about in some of the journal reflections

1:05:38 that you sent me like this idea of just like

1:05:42 dating is hard as a 20-year-old 30-year-old woman anyway.

1:05:49 Yeah.

1:05:47 And then to add your life to it.

1:05:51 Yeah.

1:05:51 Talk to me.

1:05:51 You've referenced it a couple of times in conversations you've had.

1:05:54 Like

1:05:55 what does it feel like when you're

1:05:56 having a normal conversation and someone goes,

1:05:58 "Wait a minute, you're

1:06:00 Hermione Granger, Emma Watson, you know, list goes on." Yeah.

1:06:04 Yeah.

1:06:04 I mean, it does it does feel like

1:06:06 my avatar enters the room unexpectedly all of a sudden

1:06:11 and then I'm like navigating a completely different conversation

1:06:15 if someone hasn't figured out that it's me yet.

1:06:18 And that can feel really dehumanizing

1:06:23 and sometimes quite kind of seeing someone's like

1:06:28 behavior like completely switch and turn and change

1:06:31 can be kind of a jarring experience.

1:06:35 I think what's nice is at the very least like dating

1:06:39 for everyone is a is a basically a complete disaster and free-for-all.

1:06:46 So, like I feel like I'm in good company in that sense.

1:06:49 But I think it's funny occasionally people will apologize to me for the fact

1:06:54 they've not seen my films and I will be like please don't apologize.

1:07:00 That is bliss to me like music to my ears that like

1:07:04 you're not going to constantly be navigating and me also navigating with you.

1:07:08 This projection of me or this Emma Watson avatar

1:07:12 person will not be this ghost in the room.

1:07:14 So, um, that's happened a few times where people have been like,

1:07:18 "I'm really sorry." And I'm like, "Please apologize.

1:07:22 I'm so relieved.

1:07:23 I'm so incredibly relieved."

1:07:25 And then you realize they have the box that later on.

1:07:27 Yeah.

1:07:27 No.

1:07:27 I'm like, "God, I hope not." But I mean,

1:07:30 I guess like I want people to appreciate my work,

1:07:34 but I think knowing you don't have to navigate

1:07:37 that extra like degree of weirdness is uh helpful, a relief.

1:07:42 How do you help people get to know the real you at this stage in your life?

1:07:46 You know, I wrote this play that I actually sent to you to read,

1:07:50 but I actually read parts of it to people um because I

1:07:55 find that trying to explain sometimes how weird it is to be me.

1:08:03 Like I almost need AIDS.

1:08:05 like it's not it's so difficult to convey like how weird it

1:08:11 is and how surreal sometimes that I sometimes I'll just be like can

1:08:16 I just like weed you this thing I wrote because I think

1:08:18 it's going to shortcut you somewhere

1:08:20 and so that's actually been incredibly helpful

1:08:23 and I'm I'm so glad I I went and did this this creative

1:08:26 writing masters and I've spent more

1:08:29 time writing about my experiences because sometimes

1:08:32 I can't even articulate it to myself like how how are you supposed

1:08:36 to explain something to someone else

1:08:37 you can't really even understand for yourself?

1:08:40 So, I think writing, creative writing,

1:08:44 making art has been the best therapy I've ever done because it's helped me get

1:08:51 clarity and also just be able to laugh at myself and laugh at the situation.

1:08:57 I think one-on-one therapy can be amazing,

1:08:59 but like there is a kind of intensity and a seriousness

1:09:02 to that that maybe when you're writing something down and when I wrote the play,

1:09:08 I wrote it for my friends and family and I was able to kind of be more bring

1:09:13 more of myself to the picture in a way

1:09:15 which is someone who's like this is just nuts.

1:09:19 like I just can't like I can't sometimes I just genuinely cannot believe

1:09:23 that my life is my life and um I need a place I can put that.

1:09:30 Yeah, I I loved So just for everyone who's you know

1:09:35 hearing about the referencing of this play, Emma wrote a play

1:09:39 which helped her closest friends and family

1:09:42 understand her experience of life basically.

1:09:46 Yeah.

1:09:45 Right.

1:09:46 Is that a bad description as a No, no, it's not a bad description.

1:09:49 But like specifically,

1:09:50 I wrote the play about me

1:09:52 transitioning from basically being a full-time actress,

1:09:55 an activist to trying to move home and like be a normal

1:10:02 student and attend a normal university as a super famous person.

1:10:08 And I I basically kept a journal of what those experiences were like

1:10:13 and chronicled them for my friends and family for about a year and then

1:10:17 performed it as a onewoman show at the end of the first year

1:10:20 and handed that in as my as my first year piece of work and Yeah.

1:10:26 Yeah.

1:10:27 Did it again.

1:10:28 E it got a distinction.

1:10:30 Oh, amazing.

1:10:30 Great.

1:10:31 There we go.

1:10:31 I love it.

1:10:32 It actually did.

1:10:33 Not that that was the point, but it kind of wasn't the point,

1:10:36 but I think the coolest thing was was like I read it for my roommate,

1:10:40 for example, who's belonging with me for 7 years, and he was like,

1:10:42 "Wait, wait, stop, stop, stop, stop." He's like, "Is this actually how you feel?

1:10:46 Like, do you actually feel this?" And I was like, "Yeah,

1:10:49 I wouldn't have written it if I didn't." And he was like,

1:10:51 "I had no idea that this was how you felt." And this is someone I live with.

1:10:56 And so for me who I perceive myself to be this like massive open book

1:11:01 and actually I realized I was like wow I think I'm doing a good job

1:11:05 of bringing the people that I love along with me on what this feels like

1:11:10 and actually I'm not saying nearly enough or explaining

1:11:15 it in a way where it makes sense.

1:11:18 And so even my parents were just like couldn't believe it really.

1:11:22 Yeah.

1:11:23 I'm sure they were brought to tears by parts of it.

1:11:25 I mean, I was I was so moved by it and I really hope

1:11:28 you do one day make it a uh a production in some capacity because it

1:11:33 it was so moving and so powerful and it

1:11:35 was Emma honestly it was what every public figure

1:11:41 has ever tried to explain to me about their experience yet

1:11:46 put so succinctly powerfully and meaningfully that anyone could relate to it

1:11:50 and I think anyone meaning anyone who's ever felt misunderstood stood

1:11:55 to loved for what they have and not who they are.

1:11:58 Seen for parts of themselves and not all of themselves.

1:12:01 And I I really believe it would be such a service to everyone to share

1:12:06 it one day in however way you decide to because honestly I was gripped.

1:12:10 I was completely captivated.

1:12:12 I couldn't put it down.

1:12:13 I feel like I'm going to read it again and again and again.

1:12:15 It's not something that I think you read once.

1:12:18 Not only are you a brilliant writer, but it is so true and honest.

1:12:23 And for everyone who's listening and watching,

1:12:25 I think the lesson from it for me is that your therapy could turn into something

1:12:31 creative that when you shared that with me when we were speaking on the phone,

1:12:36 I was so in awe of that that therapy in onetoone

1:12:41 setting or in whatever way of healing you believe in,

1:12:44 if it turns into something you have to put together to communicate to others,

1:12:50 that's the revelation.

1:12:51 Like the revelation is in that process, not in the listening, telling,

1:12:55 share, uh, speaking, that that's great and that's a part of it.

1:12:58 But if you can go one step ahead truly, I I feel this like urgency

1:13:04 and like desperation to communicate this specific piece,

1:13:07 which is like make art about your experiences.

1:13:10 Like the neurosis of being a writer,

1:13:13 anyone making anything is like, I don't have anything valuable to say.

1:13:17 It's all been said before.

1:13:18 This is so self-indulgent.

1:13:20 This is so narcissistic.

1:13:22 Who even wants to hear this?

1:13:24 This is bad.

1:13:26 I thought all of those thoughts probably most days as I wrote this.

1:13:31 But trust me, like whatever you think people know about you or they

1:13:36 know about your life or how you feel about it, they don't.

1:13:40 And they need you to write poems, write songs, make pictures, write plays.

1:13:47 And you don't need to be someone with the title

1:13:51 of an artist to be able to do that.

1:13:54 You really don't.

1:13:54 And in fact, I have to write on my mirror.

1:13:57 I have it written on my door,

1:13:59 I am an artist because I don't think anyone feels like they deserve that title.

1:14:04 I've been making films and writing and making art since I was 9 years old.

1:14:08 And I don't feel like I deserve that title.

1:14:10 And I have to work at it all the time

1:14:12 to feel like I have anything that's worthwhile saying.

1:14:14 I really understand the struggle.

1:14:16 I really really do.

1:14:17 But there is something about doing it and like

1:14:22 having a physical thing because I think so many

1:14:26 of these thoughts and feelings live in our heads

1:14:29 and it's not a great place for them to live.

1:14:32 They need to come out somewhere and once

1:14:35 you can put them somewhere then you're free.

1:14:39 being understood or feeling like you're understood by the people around

1:14:42 you has got to be the best feeling in the world.

1:14:48 And I think it's what we're looking for when we do so many things,

1:14:54 but often that's not the way to find it.

1:14:56 And

1:14:57 I just God Yeah.

1:14:59 If I honestly I want to go to every person

1:15:01 in the street and be like you need to write a one person

1:15:04 show about your life and then perform it for your friends

1:15:07 and family or like you need to like you know paint the thing,

1:15:11 write the song, like just do it because it's kind of one

1:15:15 of the best most meaningful things I've I've done is trying to make sense of

1:15:20 sense of it all.

1:15:21 Yeah.

1:15:21 And I love that you did it for your family.

1:15:23 Like that's the part that proves to me when

1:15:25 you say the message of make your art and

1:15:27 you know you don't need to be a full-time actor or director or movie filmmaker.

1:15:31 It's like you actually lived that part and that's what I love about it the most

1:15:35 is that you didn't make it for a stage or a movie or a documentary or whatever.

1:15:41 And honestly first I wrote it for myself.

1:15:43 I didn't think I honestly I didn't think I

1:15:45 had the guts to read this aloud to anyone.

1:15:47 I thought it was just for me and maybe

1:15:48 like two other people and performing it for my like

1:15:51 I didn't even invite my family until like two days

1:15:54 before because I just didn't think I had the courage.

1:15:57 Make art for people you love.

1:15:59 Like make beautiful things for people that you love.

1:16:02 Just for people that you love.

1:16:04 Like that's one I I I guess like I had the extraordinary experience

1:16:08 of making things for like the world basically from such a young age.

1:16:11 And I I never made anything that I

1:16:14 didn't feel like needed to be shared publicly.

1:16:17 And I remember when I made Little Women, I mean,

1:16:21 that's such an amazing thing about Louise May Alcott

1:16:23 is that really she wrote those stories for her sisters.

1:16:25 And so many people's journeys and paths start because yeah,

1:16:29 out of love, they wrote them for just one person.

1:16:31 There was a certain point I remember in my life where I was like, "Right,

1:16:34 I'm done with university now and now I'm going to just

1:16:37 like focus full what I should be doing is just focusing

1:16:39 full-time on being an actress." and you know doing all

1:16:42 of that and I had completely missed actually that Emma the academic,

1:16:48 Emma the student, Emma the person that needs

1:16:51 to needs to constantly be learning things facilitated my ability

1:16:57 to be a famous person and in Hollywood

1:17:00 and that without her I actually couldn't do it.

1:17:03 I needed I need to have both and that when one gets stripped

1:17:08 away and like even as I'm and I explore this in the play

1:17:11 as well like even as I have returned to some form of normaly

1:17:15 ordinary life whatever that looks like to me now like I also can't

1:17:20 kill her off completely you know my public person there's parts of me

1:17:24 that like still does need those outlets and to do those things too

1:17:29 and I'm figuring out what those are but I think that's what's so

1:17:32 complicated about being human is is is it's yes and not either or.

1:17:37 It's we need we need to be all of ourselves so

1:17:40 that we can do the extraordinary things that we we want to do.

1:17:45 Maybe it's about not leaving parts of ourselves behind like kind

1:17:49 of finding a way to keep threading the tapestry of all of it.

1:17:54 Yeah, I think that's I I mean you you've said it so

1:17:57 well and I really feel that that's what it's been for me.

1:18:00 I feel like as humans, we're very good at being like,

1:18:02 "Okay, this chapter of my life is over."

1:18:04 And we do it because labeling helps,

1:18:06 but it's like you went from being a toddler Yes.

1:18:08 or an infant and then you became, you know,

1:18:11 a teen and then a young adult and then an adult and then So,

1:18:14 we have all these labels and it almost feels

1:18:16 like we live our life that way of like,

1:18:18 okay, I was a student at university.

1:18:20 If I went to university and now I am a I have

1:18:23 a job and I'm an employee or an entrepreneur, whatever it is.

1:18:27 And labels are useful.

1:18:28 So I'm not going to say they aren't.

1:18:29 But what ends up happening is you start labeling phases of your life,

1:18:33 which means now there isn't a yes and it's an either or.

1:18:36 So it's like I was an actress, now I'm going to be an academic.

1:18:40 And it's like, well, no, I'm an academic and an actress and a whatever else.

1:18:45 Yeah.

1:18:45 You know, and and I think that's what it's been for me.

1:18:48 It's like I know that the people that know me best will say,

1:18:52 "Jay, I love you because we can talk about spirituality.

1:18:55 We can talk about business and we can talk about communication, media, art,

1:18:59 and I love you because we can do all those three things in one day.

1:19:02 Yes.

1:19:02 And I'm like, yes, I feel so seen.

1:19:04 Whereas if someone only said one of those things, I'd feel so limited.

1:19:08 And what I've realized is

1:19:10 I'm now at a place where I've given myself permission to be all of myself,

1:19:14 even if others don't give me permission to be all of those things.

1:19:19 Yes.

1:19:18 Because Yeah.

1:19:19 And how amazing to get to that point where I realized

1:19:23 for a long time I was pushing for I need everyone

1:19:26 to understand me and I need them to understand these decisions

1:19:30 and I need them to understand that I'm all of these things.

1:19:32 And I'm like but do you really Emma?

1:19:34 Do you actually really need them to get it or is it enough that you get it?

1:19:37 You see it and understand it and you're making

1:19:40 it possible and giving yourself permission to do that.

1:19:42 And I think once I kind of let go of like,

1:19:46 okay, it it matters way more that I accept myself

1:19:52 then that I spend so much energy and time trying

1:19:55 to force other people to see these things about me.

1:19:57 And then paradoxically, of course, once you let go,

1:20:01 people start getting which is which is funny.

1:20:06 Emma, how do you how do you see love today?

1:20:09 God, what a great question.

1:20:11 H.

1:20:12 Um, how do I see love today?

1:20:17 Oh, okay.

1:20:18 I think I have an answer for this.

1:20:19 How exciting.

1:20:19 I was right there for I was like to say, God, I hope I do.

1:20:24 Am I that deep?

1:20:25 Yeah.

1:20:26 Okay.

1:20:26 So, um I think that h we don't talk about love nearly

1:20:33 enough or I think we need to talk about it so much

1:20:37 more because I had such a not a misunderstanding but I think

1:20:43 I had a very limited understanding of it for a long time

1:20:46 which was that we see in Disney movies and in Hollywood movies

1:20:50 this idea that like falling in love once it's sort of happened

1:20:53 to you it's like irreversible you know like step into this portal

1:20:56 that you can't get out of anymore because you've fallen in love.

1:21:00 And actually, I I think falling in love might be quite easy to do in some ways.

1:21:06 That's sort of the easy bit.

1:21:07 The hard part is finding someone who actually wants to be

1:21:11 in a dance with you and be in some form of partnership with you.

1:21:17 And things like, can you argue?

1:21:20 Well, can you be is the conflict that you have generative?

1:21:25 And can you make someone else feel safe?

1:21:28 Like, and when I say safe, I don't mean like out of physical danger.

1:21:32 I mean like, can you either respond to a text

1:21:36 message quickly enough that doesn't send the other person

1:21:38 into like a complete freef fall and or not pelt

1:21:41 them with so many that they feel completely overwhelmed and flooded.

1:21:46 And like that kind of like compatibility and that kind

1:21:50 of willingness to be in this like is this okay for you?

1:21:55 Does this feel good to you?

1:21:56 This is how it feels for me.

1:21:57 And like there's like that constant back

1:21:58 and forth and that constant check-in is like

1:22:01 a a game of um check-in in a way of like can you find someone

1:22:07 who's willing to be as vulnerable as it

1:22:10 necessarily requires I think to like figure

1:22:13 out those micro adjustments until you're sort

1:22:16 of in some kind of dance with someone else.

1:22:19 And that is a very different understanding that I

1:22:23 have come to of what love is than I had.

1:22:25 I mean like loving someone is so much more complex than the projections that we

1:22:31 put on someone or even like just lusting

1:22:34 or having some small feeling for someone else.

1:22:37 But I just think that we have such a black

1:22:41 and white idea about what love is supposed to be.

1:22:47 And I wish I'd understood more before I went into battle.

1:22:53 I do.

1:22:53 I really, really do.

1:22:57 What do you think love is, Jay?

1:22:59 Oh, wow.

1:22:59 Oh my gosh.

1:23:00 You're flipping this back, Emma.

1:23:01 This is about you.

1:23:02 It's not about

1:23:02 This is a conversation.

1:23:04 I know.

1:23:04 I just

1:23:06 Well, does any of what I've said resonate?

1:23:07 It does.

1:23:07 It does.

1:23:08 It resonates a lot.

1:23:09 I'm on the right track, Jay.

1:23:10 I need you to tell me.

1:23:13 I think it resonates a lot.

1:23:14 I I grew up in a I grew up

1:23:16 with a very film naive Disney version of what love was.

1:23:21 Like I love that version of love.

1:23:23 I love the idea that

1:23:25 love was this really romantic, really sweet

1:23:30 writing letters every day kind of love.

1:23:32 Like that that's the love I dreamed of and love I thought of as a kid at least.

1:23:35 Yeah.

1:23:36 And then, you know, I think I realized that you do all of that with the first

1:23:42 person you're with in your teens and and you kind of think it's the real thing,

1:23:46 but then they're in a mood every night for no

1:23:48 reason and you're just people pleasing and trying to figure out

1:23:51 what's going on and you think it's all about making

1:23:53 that person happy and so you mold and you bend and you,

1:23:56 you know, sabotage parts of yourself.

1:23:58 And I realized very quickly that

1:24:01 that wasn't love.

1:24:02 And I think

1:24:03 what's really interesting about love now is that

1:24:06 marrying my wife who I've been with now for 12 years and married for nine.

1:24:10 Wow.

1:24:10 And so it's the longest time I've ever spent with anyone and also

1:24:14 the only person I've been with after I left the monastery.

1:24:16 And so there's been a certain chapter of my life that I've been with her for.

1:24:21 And I really feel she's taught me more about love for two reasons.

1:24:26 The first is she doesn't subscribe to any of the movie Disney versions of Love.

1:24:32 Wow.

1:24:33 At all.

1:24:33 Oh my god.

1:24:34 What education did she have?

1:24:36 Where can I get it?

1:24:37 Yeah.

1:24:37 Literally.

1:24:38 And and the other part is that I think she's

1:24:41 the only person I've ever loved enough to be taught by.

1:24:45 Oh my god.

1:24:46 Which is like a really interesting part of love that I think's missed.

1:24:50 M

1:24:51 and I feel like love is the humility to feel.

1:24:57 It's humility on both parts because the other

1:24:59 person's not actively teaching and you're actively receiving.

1:25:04 Yes.

1:25:04 So it's this really strange dance between it's almost like if you're dancing.

1:25:09 There has to be a humility on both sides because

1:25:12 it's not that one person leads and the other person follows.

1:25:15 It's the other person's kind of like should we do this?

1:25:17 Should we try this?

1:25:18 there's a anxiety and a humility in requesting

1:25:21 that and the other person gets to choose to go

1:25:24 with it or not go and say no we're going to go in this direction and that's

1:25:28 a great dance to watch and I feel like with my wife

1:25:31 she's never directly taught me

1:25:34 but she's challenged me in ways that

1:25:36 if other people would have I might have left.

1:25:38 Oh my god, how beautiful.

1:25:40 And so why am I staying?

1:25:42 And then you go okay I'm staying because there's love.

1:25:46 And so love is the ability to be taught without teaching and

1:25:52 learning without feeling like you're being led or misled.

1:25:57 And that for me has been a really beautiful lesson.

1:26:02 And if I just said this to my wife out loud right now,

1:26:04 she would just laugh because she'd just find it funny.

1:26:07 And then and then she's Yeah.

1:26:10 She she also taught me how to love me for who I was and not what I had.

1:26:13 Because I think a lot of men go through this, at least men

1:26:16 that I'm friends with and that I've spoken to, that

1:26:20 we want people to respect us for our success.

1:26:25 Yes.

1:26:24 And rever us for our accomplishments.

1:26:26 It's how men have been adored since the beginning of time for going out

1:26:31 and getting the food or going out there

1:26:34 and winning the battle or conquering a nation.

1:26:38 And that's what you were known for.

1:26:39 And so my wife's been with me since before

1:26:42 my career took off and I had any success.

1:26:44 And I think as I gained success,

1:26:46 I think my immaturity was to want her to love me for that more.

1:26:50 And she never did.

1:26:51 She just didn't do it.

1:26:55 Wow.

1:26:53 And it drove me crazy.

1:26:55 And she didn't do it in a rejecting way or in a

1:26:59 in a it just didn't make a difference to her.

1:27:02 This isn't why I love you.

1:27:03 And and it took me a long time to wrap my head

1:27:05 around that and realize because you know those are the times when

1:27:09 you could start liking other people who love you for what you

1:27:12 have achieved and what you have built and all the rest of it.

1:27:15 And I think I just have so much respect for her that she never gave in on that.

1:27:20 Yeah.

1:27:20 She never gave in and and she helped me love myself for who I am.

1:27:23 And I think that's the point that I think

1:27:25 I would have if I had met someone else,

1:27:27 I would have valued myself for very different reasons.

1:27:31 and knowing you're with someone who truly is with you because

1:27:33 of who you are and your character and that's what they honor.

1:27:38 And and I think that word honor and respect probably the last thing I'd

1:27:41 say I think we always say like love is respect and based on respect but

1:27:47 I wrote a list of things that I

1:27:49 I tried to be clear with myself about what it is I was really

1:27:52 looking for and I really want and one is someone that I can learn from.

1:27:57 So it's really interesting that you said learning without teaching,

1:28:00 teaching without learning and that kind of reciprocal like I

1:28:03 really want to be with someone that I can learn

1:28:05 some learn from and I hope that yeah as you

1:28:08 say has the humility to be willing to learn from me.

1:28:11 But the other thing is I think it's why I'm so obsessed

1:28:15 with the musical musical Hamilton and why so many people have been.

1:28:18 Like maybe this is it's so funny that we're on on the purpose podcast,

1:28:22 but like are you with someone who cuz obviously

1:28:26 what you have with someone is is wonderful, right?

1:28:29 Like what you two share together,

1:28:31 but if you can be in service of a vision

1:28:34 that you both share or at the very least are you willing

1:28:38 to honor and give dignity to the work of the other

1:28:40 person and whatever their vision or mission is in this world.

1:28:44 That to me seems far more sustainable than anything else.

1:28:49 And so I guess my big hope or wish would be that I

1:28:53 met someone who feels like what I want to do in the world.

1:28:58 Yes, that I'm important,

1:28:59 but they also feel that what I'm here to do is important to them, too.

1:29:03 And in some way intersects with what they're here to do.

1:29:07 I couldn't agree more.

1:29:08 It's exactly what I was going to say.

1:29:09 Is it?

1:29:10 Yeah.

1:29:10 that that I think the word respect and relationship

1:29:12 is thrown around a lot but this is

1:29:14 the deepest form of respect where there's a famous quote that I don't know who

1:29:19 said it but there's a and I would you know you could take the genders out

1:29:22 of it now but there's a famous quote

1:29:24 that says men marry women hoping they'll never change

1:29:29 and women marry men hoping they can change them and to me wanting someone

1:29:35 to never change or wanting to be able to change someone are both signs

1:29:40 of disrespect because I think the greatest respect you can have is to respect

1:29:48 what this person values in this moment

1:29:50 and how that evolves and that's their purpose,

1:29:53 their offering, their values.

1:29:55 And at no point are you trying to change them.

1:29:57 And I've I've talked about this often where my wife and I

1:30:00 I do this exercise with couples when I'm working with them,

1:30:02 but I've also done it in our relationship.

1:30:05 And I ask people to rank their top three priorities in order.

1:30:09 Wow.

1:30:10 And people do it privately and then they share them.

1:30:14 Wow.

1:30:13 And so generally one person will put themselves first,

1:30:18 their partner second, and then the kids third.

1:30:22 And the other person will put the kids first,

1:30:24 the partner second, and themselves third.

1:30:27 And the person who put themselves third is

1:30:29 always mad at the person who put themselves first

1:30:30 because there's this friction of well wait a minute

1:30:34 how can you not put the kids first

1:30:36 or how can you not put family first or whatever it

1:30:38 may be in your given situation and the other person is like

1:30:41 well if I don't put myself first then what can I

1:30:44 give to you all and that that kind of displays this dichotomy

1:30:47 and this belief we have around love means complete sacrifice

1:30:50 and love means self-sabotage to some degree or love means putting yourself

1:30:54 aside and the reality is actually no my goal is to make

1:30:57 sure that you live your purpose and greatest vision of yourself

1:31:01 and your purpose is to help me do that.

1:31:02 When we both do that, everything's poetry.

1:31:07 And my wife practiced that and she does it naturally.

1:31:10 And it's hard to do that in a world that constantly

1:31:12 reminds you both that sometimes the other person isn't where you are.

1:31:18 Or, you know, the idea of why haven't you had kids yet?

1:31:21 Or when are you going to be in the same country for longer than a month?

1:31:26 or whatever they may be because it doesn't

1:31:28 fit into the norm of what relationships look like.

1:31:33 And I was thinking about that with you as well, like

1:31:35 you know, I know you you talked about how getting asked the question,

1:31:38 when are you getting married or why aren't you married yet?

1:31:42 Yes.

1:31:42 And that's something every woman's hearing.

1:31:45 What's your reaction when you hear that?

1:31:47 I'm just so happy not to be divorced yet.

1:31:49 Like that sounds like a really negative answer,

1:31:51 but I just like I think that we are we're being pressured

1:31:56 and forced into this thing that like I believe is a kind of miracle.

1:32:05 I might never be worthy of it.

1:32:07 I hope it happens to me, but like I don't feel entitled to it.

1:32:13 like it will either be part of my purpose here and my destiny or it won't.

1:32:21 And I think the way we treat it as though well why

1:32:25 haven't you and this is something that has to happen in this certain

1:32:32 time span and at this certain age in this kind of way

1:32:36 is like the least romantic thing I can possibly think of.

1:32:39 Like truly, like if I had tried to get

1:32:43 married any point basically before about a year ago, it would have been carnage.

1:32:51 I just didn't know myself well enough yet.

1:32:56 I didn't have a clear enough idea of what my purpose,

1:33:01 my vision, like how I was going to be of service.

1:33:03 I didn't know where I really felt like I needed to be.

1:33:08 I think I have some of those answers now.

1:33:10 So when I meet someone, I can say, "Hi, I'm Emma.

1:33:14 This is what I care about.

1:33:15 This is where the people I love the most live.

1:33:17 This is where it's meaningful for me to be

1:33:19 in the world." And then they can decide whether they can see

1:33:24 that there's a way that I can serve what they're trying

1:33:28 to do and they can serve what I'm trying to do.

1:33:31 But before that, like they would have just got like a very mixed signal.

1:33:36 I mean, there's some parts of me that have stayed utterly consistent,

1:33:40 but there are some parts that like I

1:33:42 was really still teasing out and figuring out.

1:33:45 And I think it's such a violence and it's such a cruelty on people

1:33:50 and especially young people I think to make

1:33:53 and especially women to make them feel like they have no worth or like they

1:33:58 haven't succeeded yet in life because they haven't

1:34:02 forced to its culmination something that I just

1:34:05 don't think can or should ever be forced.

1:34:10 It's something that like honestly I feel like I've had to earn.

1:34:15 I've had to work for to be in a place where I feel

1:34:19 like I can look someone in the eye and be able to tell

1:34:21 them who I am and to have some some idea and it will

1:34:26 change and grow of of what I want and what I'm here to do.

1:34:29 That takes work.

1:34:31 Like I have like really sat with myself in a lot of discomfort

1:34:39 and asked myself a lot of very difficult questions to be at that point.

1:34:43 It hasn't happened to me yet.

1:34:45 I do think everyone's worthy of love,

1:34:47 but I like I I and and I don't think that's what you're saying either.

1:34:51 Yeah, I think so.

1:34:54 I guess maybe like partnership or marriage I guess is

1:34:57 what we're both saying is like almost a different game.

1:34:59 Like it's it's almost a different playing field actually.

1:35:03 Like actually co-joining and like properly sharing your life

1:35:06 with someone and being in partnership with them

1:35:09 seems like it's its own thing.

1:35:12 It is.

1:35:12 It takes so much work and it takes so

1:35:15 much adjustment and adapting more than compromising and sacrificing.

1:35:22 There's so much flexibility.

1:35:24 There's so much allowing.

1:35:26 It's it's so different at different times.

1:35:28 Like sometimes patience looks like being

1:35:32 by that person's side and saying nothing.

1:35:35 And sometimes patience means being halfway across the world

1:35:39 and not communicating.

1:35:41 And sometimes patience looks like uh talking and listening.

1:35:45 Like you know it's it's patience doesn't look like one thing over a a lifespan.

1:35:50 And there are parts of my wife that have stayed exactly the same in 12 years.

1:35:53 And there are parts that have completely changed.

1:35:56 And I have a choice every time that happens to learn to love the new or not.

1:36:03 And that's a choice I have to make and she has to make as well.

1:36:06 And so there's so much constant choosing

1:36:09 and constant evolving that it's very easy to just

1:36:13 it's very easy to be like, "Yeah,

1:36:14 I chose them the day we got married." And people always ask me,

1:36:17 I'm like, I don't think I even knew who my wife was the day we got married.

1:36:22 Like now when I think about it, like I loved her, but I had no idea.

1:36:27 And and that's what it should feel like.

1:36:29 I don't think if I was here to say like, yeah,

1:36:31 the wedding the wedding day was one of the best days of my life,

1:36:33 but it's not the day I loved my wife the most.

1:36:38 Yeah.

1:36:37 Because I didn't really even know what I was getting myself into.

1:36:41 That's amazing.

1:36:43 I was thinking recently about trust and telling the truth

1:36:48 and I realized the scary crazy thing about it seems to me about intimacy is

1:36:55 that it seems to be conditional on your ability to like keep telling the truth

1:37:01 and perhaps even revealing deeper and deeper and deeper truths at the risk

1:37:06 that that truth might mean that that person might not continue to choose you.

1:37:11 Yes.

1:37:12 So, even though you've been in this relationship for 12 years,

1:37:16 like every day you have to choose to risk it all if you want

1:37:21 there to be continued intimacy by continuing

1:37:24 to tell your truth to this other person.

1:37:27 And that seems so courageous to me.

1:37:30 Like, in order for there to be genuine connection and closeness,

1:37:33 you have to be willing to risk

1:37:35 it all sometimes or like probably almost constantly.

1:37:39 And that it seems like it takes so much courage because we don't like change.

1:37:44 We don't want things to change.

1:37:45 So you also want a relationship that's alive and still

1:37:48 living and breathing and not some like dead thing.

1:37:52 Yeah.

1:37:52 So well said.

1:37:53 And and what you're saying is like that feeling

1:37:55 of when you're not actually being truthful consistently,

1:38:00 that's when we feel people have had big changes in their life.

1:38:03 Because if you had the consistent truthfulness,

1:38:06 the change felt more smooth and gradual.

1:38:09 Whereas when the change came like, you know,

1:38:12 a wrecking ball where I had this feeling and I'm just telling you it,

1:38:16 it's because I didn't tell you about all the little

1:38:19 the little incremental changes and sometimes you don't know it's even happening.

1:38:23 So it's not your fault or this is not

1:38:25 something that you can say has to be the case.

1:38:27 But I think that's why being more truthful, more honest,

1:38:31 more regularly and consistently allows for the change to feel more gradual.

1:38:36 It's almost like going back to your dance analogy,

1:38:38 like if you're about to throw someone up in the air and catch them.

1:38:42 Yes.

1:38:41 There has to have been a touch or a preparation.

1:38:45 Yes.

1:38:45 Before someone just grabs hold of you and throws you in the air.

1:38:47 And it's like, well, I would have liked a warning.

1:38:50 Yes.

1:38:50 Uh and and that's why your analogy is so good because it's

1:38:55 you would throw someone up in a dance at some

1:38:56 point if you were both talented and gifted enough,

1:38:58 but there would have been a preparation.

1:39:00 There would have been a nod, there would have been a look, a feel, a touch or

1:39:04 you know to set that up.

1:39:05 And yes, like one of the hardest questions you talked about asking answer asking

1:39:09 yourself difficult questions and I want to ask you something about that.

1:39:12 But one thing I've said to my wife is if you ever fall out of love with me,

1:39:16 please tell me because I don't want to live a day without love.

1:39:20 I'm really confident about the fact that I'm worthy of love

1:39:23 and that I want to experience love in my life.

1:39:26 If you ever fall out of me, just tell me it's okay

1:39:29 because I don't have the desire to stay somewhere for any other reason.

1:39:35 And it sounds risky saying that and extreme,

1:39:38 but to me it's a greater risk to have spent

1:39:40 10 extra years with someone and then they tell me,

1:39:42 "Yeah, I haven't really loved you for the last 5,

1:39:44 10 years." And then I'm like, "Wait a minute.

1:39:45 I've lived without love for 10 years of my life and I don't want to be

1:39:49 in that place because I've seen people go

1:39:51 through that and and not be happy." And so it does come with a humility and a

1:39:57 openness to have very difficult conversations.

1:40:01 Uh and not to force something that, oh, it's been going great for 12 years.

1:40:04 It has to.

1:40:06 It should do.

1:40:07 It must do.

1:40:07 And it's like, well, maybe no.

1:40:09 Like, yes, if it does, it's great.

1:40:11 And it is right now, but

1:40:13 why shouldn't right now be a prediction for how you feel in 15 years

1:40:18 with everything else that's going to change?

1:40:20 I think if I knew I really couldn't meet

1:40:22 the needs of someone and they couldn't meet my needs,

1:40:24 if I really couldn't make them happy and they couldn't make me happy,

1:40:27 like forcing them to stay in that situation,

1:40:31 surely that like makes love impossible.

1:40:34 like negates.

1:40:35 So I I totally get what you're saying and my mom said this thing to me which

1:40:40 was like you want to be with someone

1:40:43 because you want them not because you need them.

1:40:46 And I think maybe another reason why I

1:40:51 didn't get married younger is because I think

1:40:54 maybe I would have married someone not knowing

1:40:56 who I was and I would have needed them, maybe not wanted them.

1:41:02 And I think now I have a life that's whole and complete as it is.

1:41:07 And I would be making a choice from a place

1:41:09 of I just want you and I don't need you, but I just want you.

1:41:17 And I don't I don't think I was that woman five years ago.

1:41:21 Yeah.

1:41:21 I love that.

1:41:22 And and and there's so much so much

1:41:24 to be said for attracting from a place of peace

1:41:28 because you know what peace feels like.

1:41:31 M and so then anyone or anything that comes into your life

1:41:34 and what feeling satisfied feels like satisfied is probably even a better word

1:41:38 and that feeling of I know what it feels like to be satisfied and so I now

1:41:43 know whether someone makes me more satisfied or less.

1:41:46 I know what my baseline is.

1:41:48 If you don't know what your baseline happy is then how do

1:41:50 you you've got no idea of knowing what's going on at all.

1:41:54 And that's not a feeling of being complete or having it all figured out.

1:41:57 It's like I know what satisfy is a great word.

1:41:59 It's like I know what it feels like to

1:42:01 be at peace with myself or satisfied with myself.

1:42:04 And now everyone can show me Yes.

1:42:07 where that pendulum swings.

1:42:11 Yes.

1:42:10 Um, one thing you said which I which really resonated with me

1:42:13 is that you've had to ask yourself so many hard questions to do the work.

1:42:17 And I wanted to ask you what what's one of the hardest

1:42:19 questions you've ever had to ask yourself if you could recall.

1:42:23 Well, the first one that comes to mind and then maybe I'll

1:42:26 dig for a deep or a different one is like to have

1:42:29 to admit to myself or ask myself the question of like you right

1:42:35 now have the career and the life that like looks like the dream,

1:42:42 but are you really happy, Emma?

1:42:45 Are you really healthy?

1:42:46 Are you really happy?

1:42:47 Like is this really what you want?

1:42:49 And to be at that point and like realize and have to admit to myself

1:42:54 that I wasn't and I didn't was one of the scariest things I've ever had to do

1:43:00 because you know I basically had to ask myself on a daily basis like I

1:43:05 felt like I was crazy and walking away

1:43:09 from something without knowing what you're walking towards

1:43:15 was not having the answers but leaving something that was con

1:43:19 that the world considered to be such of such high value,

1:43:24 such a high value kind of moment in my professional life and career.

1:43:29 I think that was a real sitting with that was a real

1:43:33 moment of reckoning of like can you tell yourself the truth?

1:43:38 Can you live with your truth?

1:43:39 Can you accept the fact that for most

1:43:41 other people your truth is pretty confusing and unpalatable?

1:43:46 That was definitely a hard moment of sitting more

1:43:52 recently because I've been being my own partner asking myself,

1:43:58 are you really living your values, things that you preach?

1:44:03 Are you actually aligned?

1:44:06 And actually looking at some spaces in my life where I was like, no, not at all.

1:44:12 I'm actually not doing what I talk about.

1:44:14 And I need to like create some sort of urgency or a deadline

1:44:18 for that so that I make sure that I'm a person of integrity.

1:44:22 I purport to be someone that cares about

1:44:24 the world and about the planet and sustainability.

1:44:28 And you know, there are some things I was doing.

1:44:31 Was it enough by my own standards?

1:44:33 Not by anyone else's.

1:44:35 Just by my own.

1:44:36 Probably not.

1:44:38 But what's nice is is I actually have the time now to be like, "Okay,

1:44:43 what are you going to do about it?" Like, "Get get on with it." And like,

1:44:46 but those those are Thank you for those.

1:44:47 Those those are great questions.

1:44:49 Really really great questions and so hard for so many reasons.

1:44:53 Especially when you talked about like when you're

1:44:55 stepping away from and and stepping toward Did you

1:44:58 have people in the industry or like people

1:45:01 that you could talk to that felt the same way?

1:45:03 Like did you have co-stars or friends or No.

1:45:06 Wow.

1:45:06 I no I don't know anyone else.

1:45:08 I'll never say that I I quit acting.

1:45:10 I'll always be an actor.

1:45:12 I'm still open to doing it again.

1:45:13 It's but I certainly made a decision to to take time to figure out to not know

1:45:20 and to you know I had like this whole

1:45:25 disassembling the structure that's needed to carry the loads.

1:45:31 And it's like there's an agent and a publicist and a manager

1:45:35 and a a personal assistant and there's all these people and lives who are

1:45:41 intertwined with mine and navigating and caring

1:45:45 for and negotiating that with people

1:45:47 as well was like was really tricky and also I was just bloody terrified.

1:45:53 Like I think there's a kind of infantilization

1:45:58 that can happen when you work as much

1:46:02 as I did and a kind of loss of independence that means that you're like,

1:46:07 "Oh my god, can I even do my life if I don't have this like

1:46:13 army of people who are like helping me do the most menial and basic of things?

1:46:18 Like can I actually like do this stuff myself?"

1:46:22 And and I don't even say that in terms of like capability,

1:46:25 but like just from the place of like it's

1:46:27 difficult for me to walk down the street sometimes.

1:46:30 So if I'm going to start to take

1:46:32 on truly the responsibility of most of my life myself,

1:46:34 like what's that going to be like?

1:46:36 Like can I really do that stuff?

1:46:38 I think fame makes you feel like you can't do things for yourself in a way

1:46:43 that can really disempower you and and remove

1:46:48 your confidence and autonomy as a human being.

1:46:51 That's That's really disabling.

1:46:54 And for everyone who's who's wondering, yeah, Emma called me up and I was like,

1:46:57 "So, should I speak to your publicist?" She's like, "Nope,

1:46:59 I am my publicist." Like I was like,

1:47:01 "Do I need to check with the manager?" "Nope,

1:47:02 I am my manager." And like that was literally the conversation we had.

1:47:05 She booked this podcast herself.

1:47:08 There was no booker.

1:47:09 There was no booking system.

1:47:11 There was no There was no reach out.

1:47:14 No, it was literally Emma doing it herself,

1:47:15 which is proof you are living your values.

1:47:17 Thank you.

1:47:18 And and you are aligned with what you're saying.

1:47:19 I wanted people to know that.

1:47:21 Thank you.

1:47:21 I appreciate that.

1:47:22 What's so funny though now is like because I do everything myself,

1:47:26 there's like a 50% chance you would have not thought it

1:47:29 was me or like sometimes when I reach out to people,

1:47:31 I had plenty of moments I had to double take.

1:47:34 I was like, "Wait a minute." Like

1:47:36 verified verified amount of followers who you follow.

1:47:40 People think it's not me.

1:47:41 And so like I have a 50/50 rate of people actually just like

1:47:45 not responding to me because they don't think I'd be reaching out myself.

1:47:49 That that's real.

1:47:50 I I had to do a second date.

1:47:52 I think I rejected this morning.

1:47:53 Like, wait a minute.

1:47:54 Was it definitely her?

1:47:56 Is it definitely her or am I going to turn up in some like,

1:47:58 you know, catfish situation?

1:48:00 No, it's wild.

1:48:01 Yeah, it's Yeah, oddly sometimes it takes more work me trying

1:48:05 to do things myself than through the system.

1:48:09 Yeah, I know.

1:48:10 You did a great job.

1:48:11 But that that Yeah, those those hard questions that you asked yourself.

1:48:16 I mean, what was it that gave you courage

1:48:21 to walk a path where you don't know the next three steps

1:48:25 when you have a entire career lined up on the other side?

1:48:28 You have an amazing career.

1:48:29 You've every movie you've been in has been magical and amazing.

1:48:32 Like it's when you look at your portfolio of

1:48:35 choices like they're all brilliant performances.

1:48:37 They're great films.

1:48:38 They're and you only would have more of that.

1:48:41 So, it's also not like you're leaving a career that's kind of had its you

1:48:46 know what I It's it's it's at a place

1:48:48 where no businessoriented person could imagine why.

1:48:54 And so what gives you courage when one side is

1:48:57 so clear and one side is not clear at all?

1:49:01 Again, I'm going to tell the honest version of this story.

1:49:05 I'd love to tell you that it was like

1:49:09 this incredible courage and determination I have inside of me.

1:49:12 And yes, there's there's part of that.

1:49:17 Not going to like completely erase my role in all

1:49:19 of this, but I think a big part was that it was

1:49:22 coming to a point with my health and nervous system where

1:49:30 I was starting to hit a point of not no return, but like it's interesting.

1:49:36 I eat well.

1:49:39 I do yoga.

1:49:40 I do medit.

1:49:41 I do all the things right,

1:49:44 but I think I was using those as a way of mitigating how much stress I was

1:49:49 under as opposed to actually what those things are

1:49:52 really for are compasses and points towards our truth.

1:49:58 And I so was I was using them as a way of like bolstering myself and allowing

1:50:09 myself to continue down a path that actually was kind of wrecking me.

1:50:14 And I think it was just like my immune system couldn't pretend anymore.

1:50:21 I was on seven or eight packets of an antibiotic

1:50:24 every year because my immune system was so low

1:50:27 that I would just constantly be getting a I just

1:50:29 constantly be getting sick and a sinus infection and whatever else.

1:50:32 Like I have no idea.

1:50:33 My body just started being like no.

1:50:37 I went from being someone who I would say I still handle

1:50:41 stress and pressure well and in the moment I could always do it,

1:50:45 but the cost afterwards was starting to get more and more

1:50:51 serious to the point where it was like I'd always

1:50:54 turned down or actually I remember I was in my early

1:50:59 20ies when a publicist first offered me a beta blocker.

1:51:02 I was nervous before I could carpet and it's the only other time I

1:51:06 ever took anything and I was fine for the two hours after I took it

1:51:12 and then I got back to the room and when my feelings came back

1:51:15 to me I was like over wrought with grief and feeling of of having blocked it.

1:51:24 And so I' i'd always and after that I I never allowed

1:51:28 anyone to give me anything again even though I was offered things multiple

1:51:33 times and doctors wanting to give me things for jet lag

1:51:36 and for sleep and for nerves and oh everyone takes it this is you

1:51:41 know there's no shame in this or whatever but I just I felt

1:51:45 like in order to keep going I was going to have to make

1:51:48 a decision of like are you okay with being lowle level unwell

1:51:55 and medicated essentially and I just knew that wasn't a choice for me.

1:52:02 So in a way I have my body to thank because

1:52:05 my body just I didn't want to ignore my body anymore.

1:52:08 And it didn't matter how many silent retreats I went on or how much yoga

1:52:12 I did or like what new thing I did to try and take care of myself.

1:52:16 It my body was done.

1:52:18 And that was then I think when I went away and found a relationship with myself

1:52:30 and my practice and and just having trust

1:52:33 and faith in a way that I never had before.

1:52:37 And I started listening more carefully

1:52:40 to like these little whispers of like, oh,

1:52:43 like maybe this should be the thing you do or like even coming

1:52:46 and doing this of like I think you should go and do this podcast.

1:52:50 Just listening to myself for clues basically and listening to the universe,

1:52:54 whatever that means.

1:52:55 But I never had that before.

1:52:57 I never had I never knew how to listen for those things before.

1:53:01 I truly went away and had nothing for a while.

1:53:05 So that was probably the the best result of of all of that.

1:53:11 Yeah.

1:53:12 And I and I think it still takes so much courage because

1:53:15 it does even though you didn't see it that way and you

1:53:18 may not have noticed it, it still takes so much courage to listen to your body

1:53:24 because it is easy to keep medicating in all the ways to to break it anyway.

1:53:29 Yeah.

1:53:29 and to to push it to the edges and the limits of its ability

1:53:35 and because you're so addicted or intoxicated

1:53:37 by the success or whatever it may be.

1:53:40 I guess the courageous part was just knowing I didn't want to numb out.

1:53:42 That was the point at which it got too big of a cost cuz I was like, okay,

1:53:46 if I feel like I need to be I'm at the point where the price is too high now.

1:53:54 Yeah.

1:53:54 Yeah, I loved what you said about when they're meant to be

1:53:56 compassed to our truth and not like this band-aid pacification of and

1:54:03 I've been highly really effectively using those band-aids.

1:54:06 They will carry you far.

1:54:07 Like I had a lot of practice.

1:54:09 I think that's how they're presented now too.

1:54:11 Like it's become this and and that's why when you said that I think you

1:54:16 it's almost like I'm trying to think of a good

1:54:18 metaphor but the one that's coming to my mind.

1:54:20 It's almost like driving to the grocery store in a sports car.

1:54:23 And it's like a sports car is made for this high-speed track.

1:54:27 Like that's what it's for.

1:54:29 Y, but you're using it just to drive 25 miles an hour.

1:54:33 Yeah.

1:54:32 To the grocery store.

1:54:33 And it's like, no, it's it has so much more capability and

1:54:37 ability to take you somewhere

1:54:39 phenomenally, but you're using it for a really simple basic task.

1:54:42 Not going to lie, though.

1:54:43 I remember when I did my first vapassa and sat long enough

1:54:50 and I went to my teacher and I was like what have I done?

1:54:54 Go on tell me about this.

1:54:55 Go on.

1:54:56 What have I done?

1:54:57 What do you mean?

1:54:57 In what way?

1:54:58 I I because in a way it was almost like

1:55:00 I realized once you start paying attention to your truth,

1:55:05 it's very difficult to go back.

1:55:07 And in some way it felt like I was like,

1:55:12 "Oh my god, I don't know if I like this.

1:55:14 I don't know if I like this.

1:55:15 So good.

1:55:16 I I I maybe I want to go back." And once you step through it,

1:55:20 you you kind of can't go back.

1:55:21 And I remember him looking at me calmly and saying,

1:55:25 "Could you even go back now even if you

1:55:26 wanted to?" And I was like, "I guess not.

1:55:29 I guess this is the path I've chosen to walk." And to some degree,

1:55:35 in the same way that getting cast as Hermione and like making

1:55:38 my piece with the way that that changed my life were my marching orders,

1:55:42 I think trusting that is that's that's all I can do at this point.

1:55:49 I'm just holding on for dear life.

1:55:52 Yeah.

1:55:52 It's like the mafia.

1:55:53 Once you're in, you know too much like I'll I'll never forget that moment.

1:55:58 I'll never forget that moment.

1:56:00 I was like, "Oh no, this is undoable now,

1:56:03 isn't it?" And he was like, "Kind of." Yeah.

1:56:06 I was like, "Oh no, it's so uncomfortable.

1:56:08 It's so uncomfortable being honest with myself." And then

1:56:11 I have to be honest with other people as well.

1:56:13 This is a nightmare.

1:56:14 Why did I do this?

1:56:15 Why am I here?

1:56:17 Oh god, what's I'm just imagining you on the retreat like

1:56:24 coming out of it and just having that reaction.

1:56:28 Yeah, it's so funny.

1:56:28 So good.

1:56:29 That that needs to get added to the play.

1:56:31 That moment that moment needs to be added to the play.

1:56:33 Actually, yeah, I wrote something I wrote something about

1:56:36 my doing the doing the 10day of pastor for the first

1:56:39 for the first time cuz my god that is such a it's such a roller coaster.

1:56:44 Yeah.

1:56:44 It's such a roller coaster.

1:56:46 Anything you want to share about?

1:56:47 Sure.

1:56:47 Yeah.

1:56:48 I don't want to bore you to death, but I mean I think what was funny was like

1:56:51 I I have this picture that I drew of day day two

1:56:56 and it's like green and pink and there's butterflies on it

1:57:00 and it literally says I think it says this is so embarrassing.

1:57:02 It says I am beautiful.

1:57:06 So embarrassing.

1:57:07 I just felt like in I was like oh my god this is blows.

1:57:11 I was like riding this wave of like meditation ecstasy basically.

1:57:15 Whatever dopamine hit I was getting from that was wild.

1:57:19 I just felt unbelievable.

1:57:21 And then I surfed that wave straight into some

1:57:25 kind of like brick wall of oh my god like all the things in life that you

1:57:32 think are outside of you actually live inside you.

1:57:36 And so even when you're like in this beautiful place

1:57:38 on this gorgeous meditation retreat with all

1:57:40 of these like wonderful enlightened people,

1:57:42 everything starts to drive you crazy.

1:57:44 And even the like salt shaker and the pepper pot in front of you,

1:57:48 you start to take on the shapes of your real life and you realize that your mind

1:57:53 just starts creating all this drama for you

1:57:56 even though there's nothing going on literally.

1:57:59 And it was just it was such a wild experience

1:58:03 to kind of sit there and be like, "Oh my god.

1:58:07 I'm the one creating all of my own drama.

1:58:10 This is a nightmare.

1:58:11 It's me.

1:58:12 It's me.

1:58:13 I'm the problem." And um I was like, "I can't stay here.

1:58:17 I can't do this.

1:58:18 This is way too hard.

1:58:19 Living with myself and my own thoughts is going to dry.

1:58:22 This is unbearable.

1:58:23 I I can't do this." That was a really

1:58:26 big learning and one I have to remember all

1:58:28 the time is like I as a perfectionist which

1:58:32 again is a is a kind of violence on yourself.

1:58:35 I would try to like shame and blame myself into and like kind of shake myself

1:58:41 up and and give myself these kinds of like talkings to to make myself do stuff.

1:58:47 And sometimes to be honest with you,

1:58:49 they work in the short term and in the long term they fail you miserably.

1:58:54 Like they just do not work.

1:58:56 I the only way that I have learned to change my patterns to show up for myself

1:59:04 better to change in the ways I want

1:59:06 to change and grow is to be loving towards myself.

1:59:10 So getting to be in the room with that person at that moment was a massive gift.

1:59:17 It's amazing.

1:59:18 I love it how someone that you can attend a class with can

1:59:21 become such a big teacher for you when you allow it to be and yeah,

1:59:24 you know, someone who wasn't the leader or the guide

1:59:26 of the group can can have such an impact on you.

1:59:29 Did you want to speaking about love, did you want to share the

1:59:32 is it the practice that you went through recently with is that what you ring?

1:59:37 Yeah, the ring.

1:59:37 Yeah.

1:59:37 Oh my god, that's sweet of you to remember.

1:59:39 I mentioned that.

1:59:41 Um yeah, I um I guess having gone through

1:59:44 this odyssey which has been the last I guess

1:59:48 7 years I was like okay I kind of feel like I've got to a place and this will

1:59:55 continue forever where I want to celebrate where

1:59:59 I ended up after I kind of left land

2:00:04 it felt like and yeah I I did a ritual with or like I guess just a day

2:00:09 of celebrating with my friends and chosen family and they

2:00:16 each bought me this ring which has 22 petals

2:00:22 on it and each of them bought one and I've

2:00:25 just never owned anything so valuable in my life

2:00:29 because I I to me it represents the life

2:00:33 that I've built which was the one that I

2:00:34 really wanted which was one that was made up

2:00:37 of community and my roots and faith and trust.

2:00:45 And in some funny way,

2:00:47 it signals to me that even though I have no outward signs of my success,

2:00:54 save for this crazy onewoman play I've written, I don't even have my degree yet.

2:01:00 And it signals to me that for me,

2:01:03 I achieved what I wanted to achieve for myself.

2:01:08 Wow.

2:01:10 So, that's pretty cool.

2:01:12 And I love that every time I look down at my finger,

2:01:14 I can like see all of the faces of the people who bought it for me.

2:01:18 You're amazing at holding space.

2:01:20 You're so kind.

2:01:21 The amount of people who've probably sat

2:01:22 in this chair and been as emotional as I have.

2:01:25 And you don't turn away.

2:01:27 It's amazing.

2:01:29 It's easy with you.

2:01:30 That's very kind.

2:01:31 Thank you.

2:01:32 It's really easy because it's really heartfelt and you've

2:01:35 shared so much of me before today and today

2:01:37 that I felt like you shared you created that space

2:01:42 for me to sit with you before today and today.

2:01:46 Yeah.

2:01:48 Wow.

2:01:47 What makes a real friend?

2:01:50 So you said you had 22 22 22 Yeah.

2:01:53 22 friends.

2:01:54 What what what defines a good friend for you?

2:01:57 Oh my god.

2:01:58 For me, I've never killed anyone in my life

2:02:01 and I have no intention of killing anyone.

2:02:03 But like is the person who you can call when you're

2:02:06 like that would help you carry the dead body across the floor.

2:02:09 You know what I mean?

2:02:10 You're like the person you call me like I think I've done this thing

2:02:15 and I need you to like either tell me I'm crazy or tell

2:02:18 me I'm not crazy or tell me the truth or help me fix

2:02:21 it or I don't know that I think it's like the people that God.

2:02:27 the people that you just like do not have to have hes and graces

2:02:30 with and who you can just be like this just happened and it's such

2:02:35 a disaster and yeah and I I don't know people I think also who

2:02:43 can handle your truths your real truths

2:02:46 and vulnerabilities like they're sacred and with care.

2:02:52 I think that's been very important for me because I think maybe part

2:02:56 of my bravado is I'll I'll make a joke of or I'll be

2:03:01 brave about things I don't feel very brave about and it takes someone

2:03:04 who knows me quite well to go she's making a joke about this.

2:03:09 She's like actually

2:03:11 dying inside and I kind of know that and like I'm going to hold her through it.

2:03:16 Yeah.

2:03:16 I think real friends are the ones when you're in a really

2:03:21 tight corner and not just that we'll like show up begrudgingly but be

2:03:25 like what are we dealing with today and like maybe we'll enjoy

2:03:29 that or see that as like an honor and a and a privilege actually.

2:03:34 I think that's been a big learning for me.

2:03:36 And it's an honor and a gift when someone

2:03:38 asks you for help or when they need you.

2:03:41 And I think I used to feel really embarrassed

2:03:44 about needing anything from anyone or asking for help.

2:03:47 I used to see it as like a great shame,

2:03:50 like a something I was really embarrassed to do.

2:03:53 And now I see it as like I guess like knowing how

2:03:56 I feel when someone asks me for help that I really love.

2:04:00 and how amazing it feels to be able to be there for someone else.

2:04:04 I try to remind myself that when I'm feeling

2:04:06 like I couldn't possibly burden someone else with something.

2:04:11 I remind myself and I do remember how good

2:04:15 it felt that someone like asked you to show

2:04:19 up for them and that you got to be there for them at their worst or darkest.

2:04:26 And so I think coming to understand like I

2:04:29 think I also confused codependency or like I don't know

2:04:34 I I didn't we are so interdependent as a species

2:04:38 and like we we there's no shame in in needing and wanting other people.

2:04:46 I didn't I didn't understand.

2:04:48 I I didn't understand.

2:04:50 And I do Yeah.

2:04:52 I love the answer.

2:04:52 I love how it started as if I ever kill someone.

2:04:55 Wish I would.

2:04:56 I swear.

2:04:57 And I haven't.

2:04:58 I won't.

2:04:59 So good.

2:05:00 It's so good.

2:05:01 It's so funny.

2:05:02 It's like a I I did not expect you to say that.

2:05:04 It was so good.

2:05:06 So surprising.

2:05:07 I love it.

2:05:07 But no, it's so it's so true.

2:05:09 Like when I when I left the monastery and even though I

2:05:10 was with my wife and we go into relationship and we're dating,

2:05:13 I used to always feel like I didn't I always I had this false mindset because of

2:05:20 my immaturity and understand what being a monk was.

2:05:24 Yeah.

2:05:22 In that it was in this independent way, right,

2:05:25 of not needing or wanting anyone and that we

2:05:28 were in a relationship and it was great,

2:05:29 but like that wasn't and I held that immaturity and I probably verbalized it

2:05:33 to her too many times for too long in the beginning of our relationship.

2:05:36 I have no idea why she stayed.

2:05:38 But it's uh it took recently.

2:05:40 It was we this was so recent.

2:05:42 This was like maybe a couple of months ago.

2:05:45 Well, I realized that I shouldn't have said that years ago,

2:05:48 but then a couple of months ago, my wife said to me, she goes, "You're my calm.

2:05:52 Like, you calm my nervous system." And I was like, "You're my joy.

2:05:55 Like, you bring joy to every part of my life."

2:05:56 And it was like that exchange was so needed and so powerful

2:06:02 after having for so long feeling like, "Oh,

2:06:04 I have everything I need anyway." And I do.

2:06:06 I genuinely believe that.

2:06:07 But it's what you said is that we're inter interdependent for a reason.

2:06:11 Yes.

2:06:11 We our wife make adds so much.

2:06:14 It's like saying I don't need salt added on to this meal.

2:06:18 And like the meal is great.

2:06:19 And it's like I don't need any more salt.

2:06:21 And it's like well no if you add a little

2:06:22 bit of salt it would make it a bit better.

2:06:23 Way better.

2:06:24 Way better.

2:06:24 And it's like and and we kind of live in that life

2:06:27 of like I don't want to add anything to this.

2:06:29 And it's it's almost a defense mechanism

2:06:32 because we're so scared that there may not be someone to add.

2:06:35 Oh my god.

2:06:36 I think and I've lived there.

2:06:37 So I that yeah that resonated very strongly.

2:06:40 I think that was the one of the other gifts actually of getting

2:06:43 to a point where cuz I used to be this like I'm so

2:06:47 tough and independent and I can do anything person and being at the point

2:06:51 where I was like h I actually think I'm like not okay.

2:06:57 and my body forcing me to ask other people for help was the biggest

2:07:04 gift of my life because it brought me so much closer to other people.

2:07:07 And I learned that not only is it not a burden, it's genuinely yeah,

2:07:14 a privilege and a gift sometimes to to have someone ask you that ask

2:07:19 you that question or like be honest about the ways that they need you.

2:07:25 And it's crazy how long it takes to learn these things.

2:07:29 Yeah, absolutely.

2:07:30 You you've done so much inner work and self work.

2:07:33 I'm I'm wondering what's what's the work you've been avoiding?

2:07:36 What's the work you've been putting off?

2:07:38 Wow.

2:07:38 If there is any

2:07:40 I think it's probably something around now tying it all together.

2:07:46 M I think in some ways me being here today is me trying

2:07:52 to do the piece I've been avoiding maybe which is like okay you know

2:08:00 you want to show up as a full integrated whole self and not

2:08:07 compartmentalize and split and fragment yourself in a way that keeps you safe.

2:08:14 And that compartmentalization did keep me safe and felt very

2:08:18 necessary for a long time because I was trying to keep

2:08:22 some walls up where I could nurture myself and learn

2:08:25 and grow and then be ready to share those pieces.

2:08:28 But I think it's probably figuring out how to avoid the pieces

2:08:37 that I know aren't good for me and that are genuinely just toxic.

2:08:43 But to yeah have the courage to show up now in whatever form that is

2:08:51 and trust again whether that's a person

2:08:57 or it's making something or it's kind of okay.

2:09:05 Have you learned enough that you can integrate and and share

2:09:10 now that you've done this in a work on your own?

2:09:15 Yeah, that that feels that resonates.

2:09:17 Okay, good.

2:09:18 Yeah.

2:09:18 Yeah.

2:09:18 It's hard it's hard to it's hard to verbalize.

2:09:22 It's almost like it is that you've been private for so long.

2:09:26 Yeah.

2:09:26 And you've been working in private on Yes.

2:09:28 your fascinations, your curiosities, your friends, your inner work,

2:09:32 and then to actually come out and talk about Yes.

2:09:35 what that period has been like publicly.

2:09:38 Yeah.

2:09:38 is is something you can keep pushing off and and

2:09:42 and maybe the how that ties into partnership is that I've realized

2:09:46 actually that some of the people I've been attracting on the dating

2:09:54 front think they're dating some previous version of me who I'm who

2:10:00 still exists in some ways but who isn't actually who I am now.

2:10:06 And I realized I was like, "Oh,

2:10:08 like I'm still getting sent people who like are seeing

2:10:13 someone who was part of the picture but but not

2:10:17 the whole picture." And it's starting to feel uncomfortable

2:10:22 to not feel like I'm telling this part of the story, if that makes sense.

2:10:29 It's even hard for you to be like, "Well,

2:10:31 these are the parts that are still there and these are like it's

2:10:35 not dedactic process of like No,

2:10:38 it's not an equation where you can go, well, these are the parts that I've kept.

2:10:41 These are the parts that are not like it doesn't work like that.

2:10:44 No, it doesn't work like that.

2:10:46 It doesn't work like that.

2:10:48 But I'm still getting requests that want to drag me a little bit more

2:10:52 into a version of myself who was great and she was doing great stuff.

2:10:57 But I think there's a part of me now that really feels like being able to speak

2:11:04 to you one-on-one in this kind of setting as opposed to what I used to do,

2:11:08 which would be an enormous audience and there'd be like 300 people there.

2:11:12 And like of course there's intimacy you can find

2:11:15 in a room like that, but like the truth is it's really

2:11:20 difficult to find the kind of depth and the kind

2:11:23 of connections that I know are the ones that nourish me personally.

2:11:27 And that's it's different for everyone,

2:11:29 but that just aren't allowing me to have the thing

2:11:31 that I know is the real thing that I'm actually seeking.

2:11:35 And what I used to go into lots of other environments seeking and thinking

2:11:38 I'd be able to get and keep and just not not being able to find.

2:11:43 Emma, something I wanted to ask you

2:11:44 about that's difficult and challenging because it's

2:11:49 something you spoke about earlier as to being such a big part of your life,

2:11:52 an important part of your life, but recently there's been so many

2:12:00 conversations and comments directly from JK Rowling,

2:12:03 whether it's her saying she'd never forgive you

2:12:06 for your views or the fact that when she was asked what ruins the movies

2:12:11 for her, she named yourself and some of your co-stars.

2:12:15 And I imagine that's an extremely difficult thing

2:12:18 when you've been a part of someone's world,

2:12:20 when you've felt connected to their work and then for it now to kind of be

2:12:25 a full 180 and for someone to publicly say

2:12:29 these things that can be quite extremely hurtful actually.

2:12:33 How do you think about that?

2:12:35 I really don't believe that by having had that experience

2:12:42 and holding the love and support and views that I

2:12:48 have mean that I can't and don't treasure Joe

2:12:56 and the person that I that I had personal experiences with.

2:13:04 I will never believe that one negates the other and that my experience

2:13:11 of that person I don't get to keep and cherish.

2:13:18 I to come back to our earlier thing like

2:13:20 I just don't think these things are either or.

2:13:23 I think it's my deepest wish that I I

2:13:30 hope people who don't agree with my opinion will

2:13:32 love me and I hope I can keep loving

2:13:34 people who I don't necessarily share the same opinion with.

2:13:37 And I think that's a very very important way for me

2:13:44 that I need to be able to move through life.

2:13:47 M I just really I guess I to circle back around I really do

2:13:54 believe in having conversations and that those are really important and that I

2:14:05 don't know I guess where I've landed is it's not so much what

2:14:12 we say or what we believe but very often how we say it.

2:14:18 That's really important and that's really frustrating and not what you

2:14:21 want to hear when you're really angry and upset with someone.

2:14:24 Um, but I don't know.

2:14:28 I just see this world right now where we seem to be giving permission

2:14:36 for this kind of like throwing out of people or that people are disposable.

2:14:43 And I I just think that's I will always think that's wrong.

2:14:48 I I always I just believe that no one is no no one's disposable.

2:14:58 Mhm.

2:14:57 And everyone as far as possible, whatever the conversation is,

2:15:02 should and can be treated with at the very least dignity and respect.

2:15:08 M thank you for challenging us and pushing us.

2:15:13 Yeah, it takes a lot to I think that's what we're all being challenged

2:15:17 to do is try and hold two truths at once.

2:15:19 And yes, those two truths don't have to be complimentary,

2:15:22 but they they can stand at the same time.

2:15:26 Yeah.

2:15:26 I think the thing I'm most upset about

2:15:28 is that a conversation was never made possible.

2:15:33 So you remain open for that dialogue.

2:15:36 Yeah.

2:15:36 And I always will.

2:15:38 I believe in that.

2:15:40 I believe in that completely.

2:15:42 Um I believe in that completely.

2:15:48 I just don't Yeah.

2:15:50 I just don't want to say anything that like

2:15:53 continues to weaponize a really like toxic debate and conversation,

2:15:57 which is maybe why I I don't well it

2:16:02 is why I don't comment or like continue to comment.

2:16:06 Not because I don't care about her or about the issue,

2:16:10 but because I just the way that the conversation is being had

2:16:14 feels really painful to me.

2:16:17 And so that's why that's why that decision.

2:16:22 Yeah, I really I really appreciate that mindset

2:16:24 and deeply deeply feel like if people are challenged

2:16:31 to go there themselves like it takes a lot to think that way and feel that way.

2:16:36 Yes, it's it's what it's what healing really requires across,

2:16:40 you know, around the world.

2:16:41 And I can't imagine how many young people who look up to you

2:16:44 and people who look up to you will feel the same way to

2:16:46 to recognize that that's how we engage.

2:16:48 That's what we look for.

2:16:50 We It's It's not that we're trying to make everything pretty and perfect.

2:16:54 No, it's that we're willing to engage in an uncomfortable conversation.

2:16:58 Yes.

2:16:58 her kindness and words of encouragement and that steadfastness

2:17:03 that and also honestly just as a young

2:17:07 woman to for her to have written that character

2:17:12 created that world given me an opportunity which

2:17:15 to be honest barely exists in the history

2:17:18 of English literature um you know how can I

2:17:26 there's just no world in which I could ever

2:17:30 cancel her out or cancel that out for anything.

2:17:36 It It has to remain true.

2:17:38 It is true.

2:17:39 And this is where this like holding of these I just don't know what else

2:17:43 to do other than hold these two seemingly

2:17:46 incompatible things together at the same time and just

2:17:52 hope maybe they will one day resolve

2:17:54 or like cojoin themselves and maybe accept that they

2:17:57 never will but that they can both still be true and I can love her.

2:18:04 I can know she loved me.

2:18:06 I can be grateful to her.

2:18:07 I can know the things that she said are true and there can be this whole

2:18:13 other thing and my job feels like to just hold just to hold all of it.

2:18:21 But the bigger thing is just what she's done will never be taken away from me.

2:18:30 Thanks for setting such a powerful example.

2:18:33 Thank you.

2:18:34 Yeah, that beautiful Fcott Fitzgerald quote that

2:18:38 the sign of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two

2:18:41 opposing ideas at the same time and still retain the ability to function.

2:18:46 He goes on to say, one should therefore be able to see

2:18:49 that the world is hopeless but still be determined to make it otherwise.

2:18:54 And it's like that's that's Scott Fitzgerald said that.

2:18:59 Wow.

2:18:59 He ran deeper than I knew.

2:19:01 Yeah.

2:19:01 Yeah.

2:19:01 Yeah.

2:19:01 T.

2:19:02 Wow.

2:19:02 That's No one ever part.

2:19:04 That's incredible.

2:19:05 Yeah, it's one of my favorite.

2:19:06 Wow.

2:19:06 Well done you for remembering that second part.

2:19:08 Wow.

2:19:09 You've made me like Fitzgerald a lot.

2:19:10 I mean, I liked him, don't get me wrong.

2:19:12 Like Yeah.

2:19:12 Yeah.

2:19:12 I've I to me it's my it's one of my favorite ideas.

2:19:16 It's so good.

2:19:17 Yeah.

2:19:17 It's so good.

2:19:18 That's so good.

2:19:19 Yeah.

2:19:20 Emma, for someone who has tried to stay out of the public eye, Yeah.

2:19:25 You've still been vocal about causes you believe in things that you stand for.

2:19:33 Yes.

2:19:32 And that always seems to get attention and reaction.

2:19:36 Mhm.

2:19:36 And so when you shared online your solidarity for Palestine,

2:19:43 the former Israeli UN ambassador Danny Danon called you an anti-semite

2:19:49 and and his tweet said 10 points from Gryffindor for being an anti-semite.

2:19:57 Mhm.

2:19:57 What goes through your mind when you you see that?

2:20:00 This happened um this happened a few years ago now.

2:20:04 Yeah.

2:20:04 I think what concerned me at the time

2:20:07 was the way that that label was being used.

2:20:11 And I think even now I see that playing out where we

2:20:18 aren't people don't feel like they can talk about what's happening safely.

2:20:26 this duality created where we don't seem able to care about the victims

2:20:34 of terrorism and care about the genocide

2:20:39 that's happening in Palestine at the same time.

2:20:42 And both things have to be allowed to be true.

2:20:47 You have to be allowed to care about 50,000 civilians dying,

2:20:52 17,000 of which are children.

2:20:55 and care deeply about the victims of this awful terrorist attack.

2:21:03 I appreciate you sharing that and yeah,

2:21:06 it it seems like that belief system you have in Yes.

2:21:10 and and this and and together it kind of runs through so many Yeah.

2:21:14 areas of your life.

2:21:16 Yeah.

2:21:16 It it personal and beyond.

2:21:19 Yes.