Satire Is Back With The CEO of The Onion

0:00 Hey everyone, welcome back to the In Good Faith podcast.

0:03 My name is Philip DeFranco and every week I'm talking to people

0:05 I think are the most important and influential people in the world.

0:07 And this week my guest is Ben Collins,

0:09 the CEO of The Onion and maybe soon the owner

0:11 of Infowars and also making it even juicier before buying the Onion,

0:14 he was a disinformation reporter for NBC News.

0:16 You know, we talk about so much the the art

0:18 of satire and if it's still possible in 2025,

0:20 Elon's failed attempt to buy the Onion and how

0:22 The Onion is now the 11th biggest newspaper in the world.

0:25 So hey, sit back and enjoy and if you do,

0:27 give it five stars on Spotify and Apple or give it a like on YouTube.

0:29 and also leave a comment on what you agreed with, disagreed

0:31 with, or who you'd like to see next as a guest.

0:33 So, Ben, the first thing I have to ask

0:34 is where where are things with Infowars right now?

0:39 Um how far away is are you is is

0:41 there a future where you are the CEO of Infowars?

0:44 Uh because there was craziness and then it's

0:45 been kind of radio silent for a little bit.

0:49 Yeah, we're um we're still going for it.

0:50 Yeah, we're um we're still going for it.

0:50 Yeah, we're um we're still going for it.

0:51 Uh there is a future where that happens and we're you know,

0:53 we're planning for that to take place.

0:55 Uh but we have no idea like uh uh you know Alex Jones is like the piece

1:01 of [ __ ] of sorry the the Michael Jordan

1:02 of being a piece of [ __ ] to the court system.

1:05 [laughter] Uh he is a uh he's he's

1:07 relentless in terms of trying to evade justice

1:11 and um we are you know we're we're

1:13 and um we are you know we're we're

1:13 and um we are you know we're we're standing by trying to find a way to get it.

1:16 Um but at president it's just sort of in like very weird purgatory.

1:19 People are afraid of the government the courts

1:23 and and they're specifically afraid of Alex.

1:25 Um, you know, uh, I think in a lot of cases,

1:29 you know, uh, I think in a lot of cases,

1:29 you know, uh, I think in a lot of cases, um, you know,

1:31 Alex is the the court system has been like,

1:33 why didn't this sell for an amount of money that's real?

1:36 And it's because if you try to buy infor,

1:39 you just inherit the harassment campaign with it,

1:41 so you're just paying for this.

1:43 You're paying for all this extra stuff.

1:45 Um, you're paying to be uh told that you're part of the cabal or whatever.

1:50 So, that's part of the deal, but we're still going for it.

1:52 It's the right thing to do.

1:54 I I I will say um you know when we first

1:57 it's been almost it's been a little bit over a year actually

2:01 since we temporarily uh owned in for since we temporarily uh owned in for

2:03 since we temporarily uh owned in for wars for like 20 minutes

2:04 or something and uh it's been a very long year since then but um

2:10 uh it was eight days after the 2024 uh it was eight days after the 2024

2:12 uh it was eight days after the 2024 election when we when this first happened.

2:16 So, uh, we were in for this for the long haul.

2:18 And we also knew that, you know, more than likely we're the only, uh,

2:22 people bidding on this that, uh, wanted it to be a different kind of website.

2:28 So, uh, and or or were not even remotely involved with Alex himself.

2:35 So, uh, yeah, we uh, we knew it would be hard.

2:38 I don't know if we knew it would be this hard, but uh,

2:40 you know, we're we're at the one-y year anniversary and we're still fighting.

2:44 Well, so something I was interested in there because I I forget if it

2:46 was ever confirmed or if it was just rumors I mean was was part

2:49 of the the calculus and wanting to buy I mean was was it true

2:54 that Elon Musk was try involved in some way in trying to buy it?

2:58 Um unclear.

2:58 He has tried to buy the Um unclear.

2:59 He has tried to buy the Um unclear.

3:00 He has tried to buy the Onion in the past um and that kind of failed.

3:03 He just had to pick off staffers one by one to try to go get it.

3:06 There's a series of

3:07 dom That's what I'm thinking of.

3:09 Okay.

3:09 dom That's what I'm thinking of.

3:09 Okay.

3:09 dom That's what I'm thinking of.

3:09 Okay.

3:09 cuz I was like I was like there's something

3:11 with the connection there that's so weird and funny.

3:13 Why did he want the onion?

3:16 Uh because he wanted to be cool, man.

3:17 Uh because he wanted to be cool, man.

3:17 Uh because he wanted to be cool, man.

3:18 Like he you know [laughter] all these guys just so desperately Yeah.

3:21 Yeah.

3:21 Yeah.

3:22 Was this before he bought Twitter to be Was this before he bought Twitter to be

3:23 Was this before he bought Twitter to be cool?

3:24 He wanted wanted to buy The Onion to be cool.

3:26 He wanted to buy The Onion.

3:27 Uh the staff

3:28 He wanted to buy The Onion.

3:28 Uh the staff

3:28 He wanted to buy The Onion.

3:29 Uh the staff was like, "No, thank you." Uh this was in I think 2016 or 2017.

3:32 It was a long time ago.

3:35 And then um

3:36 then he started individually picking off

3:37 then he started individually picking off

3:37 then he started individually picking off staffers to launch something

3:40 that under his you know under his eye that under his you know under his eye

3:43 that under his you know under his eye

3:43 and uh and uh

3:44 and uh then just kind of basically forgot about

3:45 then just kind of basically forgot about

3:45 then just kind of basically forgot about them.

3:46 Just left them in like a warehouse space uh in Southern California and uh

3:51 they wound up launching a thing called Thud uh and then they all left.

3:55 So that's what happened there.

3:55 Also

3:55 So that's what happened there.

3:55 Also

3:56 So that's what happened there.

3:56 Also Twitter tried to step in to stop

3:58 what a beautiful name for something that

3:59 what a beautiful name for something that

3:59 what a beautiful name for something that failed.

4:01 I love that.

4:02 It is.

4:02 That's so great with a thud.

4:04 It is.

4:04 That's so great with a thud.

4:04 It is.

4:04 That's so great with a thud.

4:05 Yeah, I think the people who worked on Yeah, I think the people who worked on

4:06 Yeah, I think the people who worked on it, uh,

4:07 I think they didn't understand what they were getting into.

4:09 It wasn't at that mode.

4:11 It was nowhere near that mode of current Elon.

4:14 So,

4:15 Right.

4:15 Oh, okay.

4:15 Right.

4:15 Oh, okay.

4:15 Right.

4:15 Oh, okay.

4:15 I think once they got there, they're

4:16 I think once they got there, they're

4:16 I think once they got there, they're like, "Something's off here." Yeah.

4:18 And that's what happened.

4:20 Yeah.

4:20 Yeah.

4:20 Yeah.

4:21 Have you uh have you ever had uh any any

4:23 Have you uh have you ever had uh any any

4:23 Have you uh have you ever had uh any any run-ins with him,

4:24 whether it be this life or your your previous previous life?

4:27 cuz I mean you were a disinformation

4:29 right-wing writer for NBC and the Daily Beast,

4:31 which actually before I even get to the Elon stuff.

4:34 How do you decide to go into such an awful field?

4:37 [laughter] What's what's what's the mental process there?

4:40 Yeah, I will say I mean most people in Yeah, I will say I mean most people in

4:41 Yeah, I will say I mean most people in that field, including myself,

4:42 I I don't think there was like a decision made where I was going to be like,

4:45 I'm going to go and just uh call Nazis all day long.

4:50 Nobody does that on purpose.

4:51 I um uh it's been about 10 years.

4:53 It has been uh it's been about 10 years.

4:54 It has been

4:54 uh it's been about 10 years.

4:55 It has been 10 years, but 10 years ago.

4:56 Um,

4:58 uh, my friend's girlfriend, I went to

4:59 uh, my friend's girlfriend, I went to

4:59 uh, my friend's girlfriend, I went to college with this guy named Chris Hurst.

5:02 Uh, he was a reporter.

5:03 Like, we had this really incredibly awful what would

5:06 now be called a podcast where we talked about,

5:09 I think, fantasy baseball for two years.

5:12 Really rough.

5:12 Uh,

5:13 psychos.

5:13 Okay.

5:13 Just really quick.

5:14 I do I psychos.

5:14 Okay.

5:14 Just really quick.

5:14 I do I psychos.

5:14 Okay.

5:14 Just really quick.

5:15 I do I do fantasy football.

5:15 You have to be a psycho to do fantasy baseball.

5:17 That's a job.

5:19 Yeah, it was a job.

5:20 Uh, yeah.

5:20 I don't

5:21 Yeah, it was a job.

5:21 Uh, yeah.

5:21 I don't

5:21 Yeah, it was a job.

5:21 Uh, yeah.

5:22 I don't And this was before it was like gambling.

5:23 We were just doing this because we were nerds.

5:25 It was a problem.

5:28 Um, but we uh, yeah, anyways, he was a

5:31 Um, but we uh, yeah, anyways, he was a

5:31 Um, but we uh, yeah, anyways, he was a reporter in Rona,

5:32 Virginia, and so was his girlfriend, uh, Allison Parker.

5:36 And Allison was, uh, shot and killed on

5:37 And Allison was, uh, shot and killed on

5:37 And Allison was, uh, shot and killed on live TV.

5:39 She was the first person to, uh, have her murder live streamed on Facebook.

5:44 It's truly aborant, truly awful.

5:45 Uh, and

5:46 It's truly aborant, truly awful.

5:46 Uh, and It's truly aborant, truly awful.

5:47 Uh, and then the weeks after that, I uh started like googling his name um

5:52 and seeing what his name came up on

5:53 and seeing what his name came up on

5:53 and seeing what his name came up on YouTube and everything that you would see

5:57 at that time was that Allison didn't really

5:59 exist or that Chris worked for the CIA.

6:02 All this awful stuff.

6:02 This is when it All this awful stuff.

6:03 This is when it All this awful stuff.

6:04 This is when it was not really reported on either.

6:06 people didn't talk about how people were getting

6:08 their information and how people were uh absorbing

6:12 all like how how the uh the bad guys had sort of taken over the pipes.

6:16 So I wrote a story about that and that just never stopped.

6:18 I just never stopped uh covering those kinds of people, conspiracy theorists,

6:22 uh people who had really hijacked how Americans consume information.

6:29 And um you know those people are now called I think like the Justice Department.

6:34 I think that's what we would refer to them as as a collective now.

6:38 Uh but that is a um yeah that that's how I got into it and

6:41 yeah that that's how I got into it and

6:41 yeah that that's how I got into it and uh I just wanted to cover stupid stuff

6:44 the whole time and unfortunately that's how American

6:46 life has turned out in the last 10 years.

6:48 Yeah.

6:48 I mean when you mention the bad

6:49 Yeah.

6:49 I mean when you mention the bad

6:49 Yeah.

6:50 I mean when you mention the bad guys I mean unfortunately I think we

6:52 we both have a negative impact but we kind of see the words conflated.

6:56 Can you can you walk us through disinformation versus misinformation?

7:00 Um and maybe even with that like the the evolution of what what's

7:05 kind of become the bigger problem even though both are obviously a problem.

7:08 Yeah.

7:08 I think you know misinformation is

7:10 Yeah.

7:10 I think you know misinformation is

7:10 Yeah.

7:10 I think you know misinformation is uh

7:11 people spreading stuff they don't know is wrong.

7:12 Disinformation is deliberate targeting their campaigns

7:15 uh to go after specific people

7:18 or uh ideas and trying to get them at this point criminalized or hurt.

7:25 um you know I focused on people who were probably most affected uh on a wide

7:31 swath that maybe were not you know faces weren't put to names um so

7:36 very frequently I was covering uh trans very frequently I was covering uh trans

7:38 very frequently I was covering uh trans people who

7:39 had been targeted at the start of that and I

7:41 was trying to alert people that maybe these people were

7:43 being used as a standin because they had no power.

7:46 Maybe they were being used uh as a caricature because they had no real

7:53 rights or lobbies uh that would stand up for them in the grander populace.

7:56 You still don't see trans people on talking head shows on CNN

8:00 or MSNBC or anything like that, let alone Fox News or those other places.

8:04 Uh but those people are being actively

8:05 Uh but those people are being actively

8:05 Uh but those people are being actively targeted because

8:07 of that because they didn't have a line of defense that worked.

8:10 And then obviously immigrants and uh really the lowest uh

8:14 probably the lowest in the totem pole in terms of lobbying

8:19 power and those people uh being used as scapegoats really

8:23 worked uh in two elections in the last uh 12 years.

8:29 So I I covered how they were used

8:30 the these campaigns were used to try and drive these people

8:34 suicide were used to uh try to make it so

8:36 these people could be blamed for all of America's problems.

8:40 Um, and it got tiresome because then obviously

8:43 if I'm reporting on that sort of thing, you know, uh, they come after me,

8:47 they come after my family and my friends

8:49 and it became too difficult to do and I just,

8:51 uh, you know, I hung it up two years ago around this time.

8:55 I mean, do you see yourself in a drastically different situation?

8:57 Because wouldn't like the the biggest change be you're kind of just more mocking

9:02 and making fun of rather than And it

9:04 kind of accomplishes some of the same stuff,

9:07 especially with I think the failures that we're

9:09 seeing in in mainstream reporting right now.

9:13 Oh my god.

9:13 Yes.

9:14 Uh we have a lot of Oh my god.

9:16 Yes.

9:16 Uh we have a lot of

9:16 Oh my god.

9:16 Yes.

9:16 Uh we have a lot of we have a lot more juice right now because we can

9:19 say the unsaid things that are rattling around

9:20 in people's brains and nobody's getting in their way.

9:24 My job is to make sure our writer room at the Onion

9:27 uh gets to say exactly what they want to say.

9:30 Uh and there's no uh space pervert above us that uh tells us not to do it.

9:36 Uh so that is our that is my biggest uh job right now.

9:39 And it's it's I think it's working.

9:40 I think right now where you see all

9:42 these other places capitulating and trying so desperately to normalize

9:46 uh truly absurdist and weird behavior, uh truly absurdist and weird behavior,

9:47 uh truly absurdist and weird behavior, we are just not uh doing that.

9:50 We're just not doing it.

9:52 Yeah.

9:52 Actually, so I want to dive into Yeah.

9:53 Actually, so I want to dive into Yeah.

9:53 Actually, so I want to dive into that cuz

9:54 uh I was I was reading a recent interview that you did and you said uh all

9:58 my friends are reporters and they have two choices, right?

10:00 They they keep their heads down at the outlet that they're working at.

10:02 They keep their big paycheck or they go independent.

10:05 They report what's actually going on.

10:07 Uh and you added that I know for a fact that all the media outlets that had

10:10 a resurgence in the early Trump years either fired

10:13 all the great reporters or told them to shut up.

10:16 Um can we name some names as far

10:19 as even with starting with outlets and companies?

10:21 Um because I think sometimes there is protection

10:25 and there is cover for saying all of them

10:30 right and and because it's a different version I

10:32 think of you know I'll talk to uh some

10:35 of the the Trumpers in my family and they'll

10:37 see something that's like egregious from Trump and they'll be

10:39 like oh well they're all criminals and it's like okay

10:42 wait wait wait wait wait and so if everything's bad uh no one's bad.

10:47 So, are there uh any uh no one's bad.

10:48 So, are there uh any uh no one's bad.

10:48 So, are there uh any specific outlets that you think are

10:50 the the the the worst places and they've cracked down on the reporters the most?

10:54 I'd love to hear from you there.

10:56 Yeah, obviously the Washington Post is Yeah, obviously the Washington Post is

10:57 Yeah, obviously the Washington Post is the most egregious.

10:58 They are doing the betting of their billionaire owner.

11:01 Uh they've completely wiped out their oped page and replaced it with uh people

11:05 who are now saying that uh Jeffrey Epstein is uh me too me too.

11:12 Me too.

11:13 Okay.

11:13 I have to look.

11:14 Okay.

11:14 I have to look.

11:14 Okay.

11:14 I have to look.

11:14 Yeah, that's like a thing that's Yeah, that's like a thing that's

11:15 Yeah, that's like a thing that's happening now.

11:16 Uh, but like that is the most egregious thing.

11:17 And I I don't want to broad swap this in the other direction either.

11:21 There are still great reporters there.

11:22 Uh, like Drew Harwell is a great reporter

11:24 doing the best he can in a difficult situation.

11:26 Uh, he covers basically what I covered back in the day and he's like he's a dog.

11:30 He's really good and the reporters there that are still

11:32 and the reporters there that are still

11:32 and the reporters there that are still doing

11:34 good work are are fighting a two-front war.

11:37 Uh, it it is is going to be very difficult.

11:40 Um, CBS wiped out everything.

11:42 uh you saw the guy who ran 60 Minutes for decades,

11:45 you know, duck out and get out of the way.

11:48 Um that's when you know something's up.

11:50 Um you know, Marty Baron at the Washington Post knew

11:53 something was up before anybody else because he's, you know,

11:54 he was the guy was at the Globe Spotlight team when

11:58 they did the child sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church.

12:01 He's one of the best editors in the history of America and he uh knew

12:06 something was funny at the Post and left when he was the editor-in chief there.

12:10 Um it there's there are a lot of places that are

12:13 acting like this and some of them are acting like this overtly.

12:15 The post is very you know they're playing a game.

12:19 They are trying to its owner is trying to win favor.

12:23 Same thing for CBS.

12:23 They are trying to get deals through that otherwise

12:27 wouldn't that would be monopoly style deals in the past.

12:30 CBS is trying to the owner of that company

12:32 the Ellison's they are trying to buy Tik Tok in earnest.

12:36 They are trying they uh might bid for Warner Brothers Discovery.

12:41 They have just merged Sky Dance.

12:42 They all all of these things.

12:44 Uh they are trying to win government approval.

12:46 And you hear talking, you know,

12:48 with Donald Trump where they say that they're

12:50 on the right track now at CBS for just capitulating.

12:54 Um that's what I'm talking about.

12:56 It's

12:56 Um that's what I'm talking about.

12:56 It's Um that's what I'm talking about.

12:57 It's not This is that that's the overt stuff.

13:00 the the covert stuff is, you know, I don't want to blow up my friend's spot who,

13:03 you know, where they they have kids, they have,

13:06 you know, they have a life and uh they are trying to within

13:11 keep the wheels on the track to the extent that they can.

13:13 It is sort of like in the first

13:15 Trump administration where they were doing that internally.

13:16 There were real people who were trying to stop him

13:20 from shooting protesters and doing January 6th and all that stuff.

13:23 there are people in that in those roles in newsrooms right now um that are less

13:30 overt but almost all these mainstream places have

13:33 to some extent capitulated because of larger corporate concerns.

13:38 So do you think then the uh the future

13:39 So do you think then the uh the future

13:39 So do you think then the uh the future ends up being more independent

13:41 uh because I don't know I I I don't see it just with reporters.

13:45 I see it in numerous fields.

13:46 We've had a lot of experts going pretty much everyone's

13:50 like just shut the [ __ ] up for the next three years

13:53 and maybe we can survive this and maybe there's maybe it

13:55 doesn't go back to normal but there's some sort of pendulum swing.

13:58 So, I mean, is the the future independent?

14:01 And because I sometimes think on the surface, okay, it's easy to say yes, right?

14:05 We see the the kind of the the Substack pops.

14:07 We see the uh the Tik Tok and YouTube shows uh that that blow up,

14:11 but it almost feels like inevitable that it'll get to a point where it's

14:16 a business um for a number of these places and then it loses that independence.

14:22 Yeah.

14:22 I I hate to be hopeful, but I'm Yeah.

14:25 I I hate to be hopeful, but I'm Yeah.

14:25 I I hate to be hopeful, but I'm going to be hopeful for a second if that's okay.

14:27 Some of the best reporting I've seen in my life.

14:30 This question is gonna go into cynicism,

14:31 This question is gonna go into cynicism,

14:31 This question is gonna go into cynicism, but yes, I want to hear the hope.

14:32 I want to hear the hope.

14:33 Cool.

14:34 Some of the best reporting I've

14:34 Cool.

14:34 Some of the best reporting I've Cool.

14:35 Some of the best reporting I've seen in my life

14:35 has come out in the last few months.

14:37 And people like Mr.

14:37 Marissa Kabas the Handbasket, who is just a dog of a reporter.

14:41 Uh once you give up the ghost of trying to work at these places ever again,

14:45 you are doing some of the best reporting in the world on on a week-by-eek basis.

14:48 People come to you with real information from like the wrongs

14:52 of the government and stuff that they they know they can only trust

14:56 somebody who will report it fairly and accurately outside of these spaces

15:00 without going to the White House and trying to 50/50 something awful.

15:04 Um that's where the real good stuff is Um that's where the real good stuff is

15:06 Um that's where the real good stuff is coming.

15:07 And I you know I talked to my yesterday I'm home and I

15:10 talked to some people in my alma moater who are fighting this fight.

15:12 They are uh I went to Emerson College

15:15 in Boston and the president of that college is trying

15:18 to uh kick the school newspaper out of their buildings

15:22 for reporting on uh pro Palestine protest last year.

15:24 They were just reporting on it.

15:27 And uh they they didn't tow the line.

15:30 And I told them, you know,

15:31 I'm much more likely as the guy who hires and fires

15:35 some people uh to hire somebody who got kicked out of college

15:38 for reporting accurately about the administration than I am for somebody

15:41 going doing a 50-50 ball with people who are lying to you.

15:45 And that's going to come.

15:46 That's going to happen.

15:47 The people I will remember from this era

15:50 are the people who went and asked a murderer

15:53 uh in Muhammad bin Salman uh to their face

15:56 about how he bones a journalist to death.

15:59 that those are the people I remember right now.

16:01 Uh they're playing with fire with their jobs,

16:03 but they are not playing with fire for the long term.

16:07 Like we're we're gonna get through this.

16:09 There is going to be another side of this.

16:11 People do not like what is going on at large.

16:14 That's available in polling,

16:15 but it's available when you go outside and talk to people.

16:19 And uh the reporters who understand that fundamentally

16:21 know that their job is to report what's going

16:23 on and not the fit like the in between

16:25 of what's going on, what your boss wants you to say.

16:27 Those are the people who are going to, you know,

16:29 stand the test of time in this era.

16:31 I think people are going to be I think people are going to be

16:32 I think people are going to be interested uh to to hear

16:33 you expand on when you say uh someone has a story,

16:36 then they go to the White House,

16:36 they they do a 50-50 uh ball like can you can you explain what that is?

16:41 Yeah, I mean at all these places they uh

16:43 Yeah, I mean at all these places they uh

16:43 Yeah, I mean at all these places they uh there are active

16:45 conversations about keeping your seat on Air Force One but not getting sued.

16:48 Uh so you have to you know CNN gets sued all the time,

16:50 New York Times gets sued all the time for their and Wall Street

16:53 Journal now as well by the White House for this and it's expensive.

16:57 These are frivolous lawsuits, right?

16:59 And you know, they're suing them for tens of millions of dollars for ridiculous,

17:05 obviously true uh statements of fact, but that doesn't matter.

17:08 It's still but that doesn't matter.

17:09 It's still but that doesn't matter.

17:09 It's still lawyers fees.

17:10 Like, they'll get thrown out, but that's, you know,

17:12 hundreds of thousands of dollars in lawyers fees that could go to reporting,

17:15 that could go all all this other stuff.

17:17 If you are a person with real information right now,

17:21 say you are a government whistleblower of some stripe,

17:23 say you just left ICE because you couldn't handle it anymore,

17:26 do you want to go to the Washington Post

17:27 do you want to go to the Washington Post

17:27 do you want to go to the Washington Post reporter,

17:28 who you know is a good reporter by the way,

17:30 but you know that they'll go and they will smear

17:32 your name because you're taking their information because that's the rules.

17:35 They'll take your information and they will drag you through the mud

17:38 before the story even gets out because they're not playing by the rules.

17:41 Mhm.

17:42 I'm going to go to Marissa at the hand I'm going to go to Marissa at the hand

17:43 I'm going to go to Marissa at the hand basket who's going to report

17:44 the [ __ ] out of this thing and then

17:46 call the White House the very last second.

17:48 That's who I'm going to go to if

17:50 I am if I'm a regular human being whistleblower.

17:52 I'm not going to go to the guy who

17:54 gives the White House two weeks to comment and go

17:57 through like the Palunteer records on you and then uh

17:59 come up with everything bad you did in middle school.

18:02 So, I I am aware of the situation.

18:05 I just, you know, the news hasn't adapted in time and

18:08 now it's at the point where it's sort of

18:09 now it's at the point where it's sort of

18:09 now it's at the point where it's sort of beyond adapting.

18:11 Okay.

18:11 So, that's kind of interesting to me.

18:13 So, because I've uh I I I always talk

18:16 about myself as a a news curator and commentator,

18:18 never as a a journalist.

18:19 And so, there there are a number of things

18:21 that as far as practices that are that are interesting to me.

18:26 The the note of contacting who the story is about kind of last

18:29 who the story is about kind of last who the story is about kind of last second.

18:31 Is that is that a normal practice?

18:35 And if so, why?

18:37 Oh, you you have to I mean, you should Oh, you you have to I mean, you should

18:38 Oh, you you have to I mean,

18:38 you should reach out for comment from the White House.

18:40 I think there was a time at which you might be able to get information out

18:43 you might be able to get information out

18:43 you might be able to get information out of that, but now they are saying

18:46 your mom.

18:46 They reply to emails by saying your mom.

18:47 They reply to emails by saying your mom.

18:47 They reply to emails by saying your mom to you.

18:48 So, you're not getting information.

18:51 You just you're giving them uh a week to go on offense basically.

18:55 Uh and that's fine.

18:57 [snorts] They're giving you a week to But like again,

19:00 you're kind of asking you're asking the gun a time for comment.

19:04 You're being like, "Hey,

19:05 do you have any bullets in there?" They're going to say to you,

19:08 you're going to find out.

19:09 that's what you're doing, right?

19:10 right?

19:10 right?

19:11 Um I'm not saying this isn't like good Um I'm not saying this isn't like good

19:12 Um I'm not saying this isn't like good practice.

19:14 I'm saying that again if I am if I'm

19:17 Chelsea Manning or Reality Winner or whatever right now,

19:21 um I'm going to 404, but that's where um I'm going to 404, but that's where

19:23 um I'm going to 404, but that's where I'm going.

19:24 Uh which is a great outlet of ex reporters who got laid off

19:27 in the first wave of like AI AI layoffs at these medium-sized places.

19:31 That's where I'm going.

19:33 Um, and I I uh I don't know does these places have have

19:36 had a failure to adapt to the new reality that we live in.

19:40 Is that is that kind of the next big Is that is that kind of the next big

19:42 Is that is that kind of the next big threat you think for or not

19:43 maybe next maybe it's the current threat for journalists is is AI is

19:46 that why we're seeing or or why are we seeing more comfort or companies more

19:50 comfortable in laying off the amount of people or no it's not really there yet.

19:56 Uh my take on AI is that it has it's done a really useful executive functioning

20:02 executive function function in laying off people uh

20:04 who they want to lay off without a replacement.

20:07 Uh in my world like it AI cannot

20:11 call somebody and get information out of people.

20:13 It can't build source.

20:15 It can't do all that really difficult stuff.

20:17 It also in at the onion it cannot write a joke.

20:19 It's just straight up bad at [clears throat] it.

20:22 Um, and that's because AI at present

20:25 is the synthesis of all known knowledge, right?

20:27 It's the synthesis of all even at that's a I would say an optimistic take.

20:32 And that allows you to take that stuff and analyze it.

20:34 Take the information that we know and analyze it in a way that is,

20:39 you know, hopefully useful.

20:41 Good satire, good comedy is just sort of the thing, the unsaid thing.

20:44 It's the it's the feeling in the back of your head.

20:48 Um, and it's very human and you uh for us we don't use it at

20:53 and you uh for us we don't use it at and you uh for us we don't use it at all.

20:55 Like we I've not seen anything uh from AI that was funny on purpose.

20:58 I've seen people manipulate AI to you know uh there's a great guy on Instagram.

21:03 His name's like Sergio or something, but he's a casting director

21:08 and he tries to get uh he does like he and he tries to get uh he does like he

21:10 and he tries to get uh he does like he does casting calls but with AI, right?

21:13 AI actors.

21:14 That's funny because their faces morph and they simply cannot act.

21:19 They they can't they don't know what being mad is.

21:22 They just overact all the time.

21:23 It's very funny, but it's not good.

21:26 Um, so in both the

21:27 but it's not good.

21:27 Um, so in both the but it's not good.

21:28 Um, so in both the Onions world and in the reporting world,

21:30 it's been used as a cudgel to lay off lots of people.

21:32 Um, it's been used as an ability,

21:35 a good excuse to be like, look, sorry, the the revolution's coming.

21:38 Uh, we're getting out ahead of this.

21:40 And what they've replaced it with is nothing good.

21:43 I mean, I I have not heard the Great AI song or seen the Great AI movie.

21:49 I've seen them add extra fingers in the background to an Apple TV show,

21:53 but I have not uh I have

21:54 not seen the supposedly incredibly positive developments

21:58 artistically that uh I've been sworn

22:00 to with trillions of dollars in Boiled Ocean.

22:04 Uh that that that is coming.

22:07 Yeah.

22:07 Yeah.

22:07 I don't know.

22:08 I I I Yeah.

22:08 Yeah.

22:08 I don't know.

22:08 I I I Yeah.

22:09 Yeah.

22:09 I don't know.

22:09 I I I constantly look at it.

22:10 I think it's it's the situation we're in feels bad no matter what.

22:14 It's either mass firings or uh it's not what they say it is and it's just

22:18 a commercial product and uh the the market takes

22:21 just such a massive impact we see devastating damage.

22:23 Uh but we'll see once.

22:25 So that kind of hits on the the cynic cynicism

22:27 that I I wanted to ask you about um with Infowars.

22:31 You were asked you know what would you do with it?

22:34 Uh you said [laughter] I would have the site

22:36 show how everything in American life is a scam.

22:40 Uh so as a cynic my ears go okay wait he has to expand on that.

22:44 How how do you see everything in American life as a scam?

22:47 I mean uh our our economy is sort of

22:50 I mean uh our our economy is sort of I mean uh our our economy is sort

22:51 of reliant on gambling and speculation right now.

22:53 Uh and you used to be reliant on like hypothetical

22:56 gambling but now it's literally re reliant on actual gambling.

23:00 like one I don't know one in two

23:03 American male teenagers seems to be spending 80%

23:05 of their time on DraftKings which I suppose

23:07 is better than the rest of the internet.

23:10 Uh so like it's it's not a great outcome for us.

23:14 And uh I I see it everywhere.

23:15 And even if you're not gambling uh or part of that speculation,

23:21 you're being prayed upon by some sort of MLM that tells you they have some sort

23:24 of miracle elixir that is going to fix every

23:27 ailment in your body that probably requires some yoga.

23:31 Um so like we are there's a vast open expanse here for us to at the onion

23:39 to comment on this and in the last uh

23:41 30 years uh that the onion has been around 37

23:45 years we've always sort of like taken up

23:47 that mantle like we went after we created the onion

23:50 news network when it was peak CNN when it was like the the child was in the sky.

23:55 What was that?

23:56 remember that?

23:56 Remember when they there was the the child who was

23:58 like the in the floating balloon but then he wasn't.

24:02 Are you talking about balloon kid?

24:03 Are you talking about balloon kid?

24:03 Are you talking about balloon kid?

24:05 Yeah, the balloon kid.

24:06 Yeah.

24:06 Yeah, the balloon kid.

24:06 Yeah.

24:06 Yeah, the balloon kid.

24:06 Yeah.

24:07 Yeah.

24:07 So, Yeah.

24:07 So, Yeah.

24:07 So,

24:07 I was like I remember covering it.

24:08 I

24:09 I was like I remember covering it.

24:09 I

24:09 I was like I remember covering it.

24:09 I remember seeing the documentary in the last year.

24:12 Uh I was I was I was all bought in.

24:14 But yeah.

24:15 Yeah.

24:15 An incredible metaphor.

24:16 Yeah.

24:16 An incredible metaphor.

24:16 Yeah.

24:16 An incredible metaphor.

24:17 Oh, it's gonna bother me.

24:17 Anyway,

24:17 Oh, it's gonna bother me.

24:17 Anyway,

24:18 Oh, it's gonna bother me.

24:18 Anyway,

24:18 the whole thing was an incredible the whole thing was an incredible

24:19 the whole thing was an incredible metaphor for what we're in for at that point.

24:21 But around that time we created ONN and then we

24:23 created click hole to counter the Buzzfeed upwardification of everything.

24:28 And now the way that we consume media is

24:30 And now the way that we consume media is

24:31 And now the way that we consume media is this is random

24:34 people trying to sell you boner pills uh

24:35 people trying to sell you boner pills uh

24:35 people trying to sell you boner pills uh because

24:36 it'll fix all your problems and uh we have

24:38 to have some sort of reaction to that as a company

24:40 and that's that's why we were going after M4s.

24:42 Obviously we would have wished uh that we would have it by now

24:46 but you know we'll see what happens in the next few months.

24:49 God, that was it the upworthy PDF that ruined headlines for two to three years.

24:55 I was like, you won't?

24:57 Oh my god.

24:58 I'll get you right back to the in good

24:59 I'll get you right back to the in good

24:59 I'll get you right back to the in good faith pod in a minute,

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26:03 [music] But Ben, I want to go back to I

26:06 I haven't really had a sounding board for this.

26:08 Uh so I am someone that uh in the past I had prize pick sponsorship,

26:13 DraftKings sponsorships to the chagrin of my uh sales team and my manager.

26:18 Uh I started like once I actually researched

26:20 and saw like how [ __ ] devastating it is for people.

26:23 I was like oh okay I was I was comfortable with this because it wasn't

26:26 technically gambling and it was like it

26:28 was just fantasy football and that's a thing

26:29 that I normally do and I still engage with it on a personal level

26:32 but I was like I can't promote this once I start seeing how devastating it is.

26:36 But I think also it's it's another version of the bad.

26:40 I'm freaked out by what's been so normalized in the past just six months.

26:45 Even Google's like I I guess uh going to get involved uh with Poly Market

26:50 and Khi that seems so dangerous not just

26:53 for manipulation but I don't know I once

26:55 again maybe it's the cynical part of my brain

26:57 when I started seeing Mumani in New

27:00 York as a 92 93% favorite and you could go and you could vote no.

27:05 It felt like it opens up this horrifying door.

27:08 Um, and it's not like people need more reasons these days.

27:10 It feels like it opens up this horrifying door where someone goes, "Okay, well,

27:14 I'm gonna bet that he doesn't." And then it

27:18 incentivizes some sort of other reason for an assassination attempt.

27:21 Um, it feels like and and I like when I'm

27:24 thinking that I'm like I'm not seeing stories around that.

27:26 Am I crazy for thinking that?

27:27 I don't know if you have any thoughts there.

27:28 Yeah, I mean, weirdly enough, I I started covering this thing called predict it,

27:32 uh, which was the progenitor to this.

27:35 Um, they were, this used to be very very, uh, regulated.

27:40 Uh, so you used to have to have some sort of tie

27:43 to a university to run a prediction market in the United States.

27:47 So, I think the cap on betting on an election was $3,000, right?

27:50 And it was just a way to see if uh

27:56 the way betting markets behaved would be better than polling.

27:58 That's the way it existed.

27:59 So I remember going to a predicted

28:02 event on Wall Street before the 2016 election.

28:04 So this was 10 years ago.

28:07 [snorts] And uh I remember talking to a guy and he had

28:11 thrown all $3,000 you could in every market uh against Hillary Clinton.

28:14 And this was after the debate.

28:17 This was after a debate where Donald Trump ostensibly did very poorly.

28:20 I thought he did very poorly, but I guess not.

28:23 Uh, and I asked him why he did it and he said,

28:28 "It's a hedge against the rest of my life." And I said, "Fascinating thinking.

28:34 Uh, but I I kind of get you." He's like, "Well, if I lose, I win like $12,000.

28:39 If I lose the country, get $12,000." And, uh,

28:42 it was a really interesting thought.

28:44 Um, but then that obviously devolved like once the, you know,

28:48 the cowies of the world and the poly markets of the world came up.

28:50 Um, there's so many incentives to do really gnarly stuff,

28:54 especially at lower levels, right?

28:56 Like every single race you can bet on along the way.

29:00 Um, you could nerf a candidacy and just say

29:03 of a of a small time person just to win 100,

29:06 200 bucks or something with just, you know,

29:08 a random rumor you put on Facebook or something.

29:09 There's just a lot of incentive that are even smaller

29:12 than assassinations to uh kill descent and get money for it.

29:19 Like it's it's a very obvious and terrible idea.

29:22 Um obviously obviously it should be regulated.

29:24 I haven't heard of the big NBA style

29:27 gambling ring takedown uh of of of politicians,

29:30 but it's certainly happening.

29:31 there's a lot of incentive to do this and um the people who do it first

29:36 and foremost and then we find out about

29:38 it two years later probably doing it right now.

29:40 Yeah.

29:40 I mean to that extent I don't know Yeah.

29:41 I mean to that extent I don't know Yeah.

29:41 I mean to that extent I don't know how involved it would be.

29:43 I mean these days uh commentators

29:46 and and politicians are seem more married than ever.

29:50 But it does feel like it's it's prime for manipulation for for people that have

29:55 any sort of reach to be able to you know have an incentive there.

29:59 There's already so many whether it be

30:01 uh access to the administration that we've seen

30:04 uh uh this this go around and uh the kicking out of the mainstream but yeah

30:08 I don't know I I feel like that's people talk about it but I feel

30:14 like it's it is going to ruin maybe close to as many lives as AI.

30:17 Yes, I agree.

30:19 And I I think that there is a I think that the stories to come,

30:23 you know, when those that wave of AI uh suicides came through,

30:30 it's obviously that's that's the next it's obviously that's that's the next

30:31 it's obviously that's that's the next wave

30:31 of terrible stuff because it just came shortly thereafter.

30:34 Um in in uh gambling addiction is a chemical disease.

30:39 Like we know we've known this for decades.

30:41 Uh I grew up in a house, right?

30:44 To be reality, this is some lore.

30:47 Uh my grandmother uh bet on the Red Sox.

30:50 She had a bookie come to the house.

30:51 I I grew up with my grandparents and my parents.

30:53 She had a bookie come to the house and she

30:55 just like threw away money on the Red Sox.

30:57 She the Red Sox have never won a World Series in her lifetime.

31:00 They just she died in the lifetime in which you cannot win a World Series.

31:03 So she would just, you know, throw throw money away at a bookie.

31:06 And there was no this is a chemical problem she had, right?

31:11 Obviously.

31:11 And I love her dearly.

31:13 And it was that's that's just what happened.

31:15 So like we're we're in for it in a lot of ways.

31:17 I just I hate again I hate to end on a positive note here, but like there's

31:22 I know.

31:22 I love it.

31:22 Give it I I I'm like I know.

31:23 I love it.

31:23 Give it I I I'm like

31:23 I know.

31:23 I love it.

31:24 Give it I I I'm like give it anything positive to me.

31:26 A gaping m good coverage here that if

31:27 A gaping m good coverage here that if

31:27 A gaping m good coverage here that if you're a young journalist

31:29 or if you are a person who sees what's going on here,

31:34 you're about to be a very uh prestigious

31:36 you're about to be a very uh prestigious

31:36 you're about to be a very uh prestigious

31:38 and uh wellreceived journalist when this wave of capitulation ends,

31:40 which seems like it's going to be soon.

31:42 So, just get in there, make your YouTube video,

31:44 get get in there and uh uh write a blog and get

31:48 on Blue Sky and yell about it because that's how that's how this happened.

31:51 The first time around,

31:52 I I beca I was nobody and I became a a reporter in this space just

31:57 by just tracing down leads when everybody told

32:00 me covering the internet wasn't important or serious.

32:02 And that that beat became the White House beat, right?

32:05 So like there if you want optimism um the democratization of the internet

32:10 created a lot of bad stuff in the last 10 years.

32:13 It can create a lot of good stuff.

32:14 You just have to keep a good head on your shoulders and keep moving forward.

32:18 I know it's really rough but you but it's a good time to do it.

32:21 Like this is the time.

32:22 We're at rock bottom.

32:22 It's the time to get in.

32:25 That's the time.

32:26 Yeah.

32:26 The market's down

32:27 That's the time.

32:27 Yeah.

32:27 The market's down That's the time.

32:28 Yeah.

32:28 The market's down society.

32:29 Um are there other are there society.

32:30 Um are there other are there society.

32:30 Um are there other are there other blind spots

32:32 that you think uh that people could inject themselves in?

32:34 right now outside of that.

32:37 Oh, other than journalism.

32:37 Yeah.

32:37 I mean,

32:38 Oh, other than journalism.

32:38 Yeah.

32:38 I mean, Oh, other than journalism.

32:38 Yeah.

32:39 I mean, like there's just uh comedy in general right now for us.

32:41 I hate to bring it back to my to my world.

32:44 I keep saying this right now.

32:45 I keep saying this right now.

32:45 I keep saying this right now.

32:46 Yeah.

32:46 Yeah.

32:47 People are getting priced Yeah.

32:47 Yeah.

32:47 People are getting priced

32:47 Yeah.

32:47 Yeah.

32:47 People are getting priced out of LA and New York if you're a comedian.

32:52 And that includes uh places to do comedy.

32:54 That's why people are doing them at laundromats and all these other places.

32:57 Uh but it also includes comedians.

32:59 So, they're getting if you're racist, you go you move to

33:01 if you're racist, you go you move to

33:02 if you're racist, you go you move to Austin.

33:02 And if you're not, you move to Chicago.

33:05 island and uh there is

33:07 I don't know.

33:07 I heard I heard I heard uh

33:07 I don't know.

33:07 I heard I heard I heard uh

33:08 I don't know.

33:08 I heard I heard I heard uh fascism is not fun anymore.

33:09 So I don't know.

33:11 Maybe maybe it's okay to go there.

33:12 Maybe maybe that's Maybe maybe that's

33:12 Maybe maybe that's

33:13 they're like wait this is what it looks

33:14 they're like wait this is what it looks

33:14 they're like wait this is what it looks like.

33:15 [laughter]

33:15 Oh [ __ ]

33:16 Oh [ __ ]

33:16 Oh [ __ ]

33:16 I was talking about I was talking about I was talking about I was talking about

33:17 I was talking about I was talking about the immigrants the character in my head.

33:20 I just wanted to say the R word.

33:21 What

33:21 I just wanted to say the R word.

33:21 What

33:21 I just wanted to say the R word.

33:22 What the [laughter] [ __ ] That's that's that's it feels like

33:24 that's most of the reactions and I'm just like okay Jesus.

33:28 Yeah.

33:28 But like right now, if if you are Yeah.

33:29 But like right now, if if you are Yeah.

33:29 But like right now, if if you are a sharp comedian, um,

33:31 and you're not doing crowd work, uh, congrat you won the game.

33:35 If you just do it the oldfashioned way, I'm gonna go see you.

33:38 Um,

33:39 people who are I I I call our process people who are I I I call our process

33:41 people who are I I I call our process here at the Onion ruthlessly inefficient.

33:43 It is the least efficient way to get to get to a joke,

33:46 and it's probably the best way to do it.

33:47 Every day we uh they every weekday they wake up, 15

33:51 uh they every weekday they wake up, 15

33:52 uh they every weekday they wake up, 15 writers come in with like 10 headlines.

33:54 So, you're working with like 160 headlines and then they

33:56 needle that down to like one every day, one or two.

34:02 And uh when people say the onion doesn't miss,

34:05 it's because we we miss all the time.

34:09 We miss 159 out of 160 times.

34:11 And

34:12 not public or even the public.

34:13 not public or even the public.

34:13 not public or even the public.

34:13 It's just not public.

34:14 Not we just it's

34:14 It's just not public.

34:14 Not we just it's It's just not public.

34:15 Not we just it's just not even close to public.

34:17 Um we do it the oldfashioned way.

34:20 And there is a I I don't want to sound

34:22 like like an artisal granola lady uh in like 1998.

34:26 I understand how annoying those people were.

34:28 I grew up around them.

34:29 I grew up in Massachusetts.

34:30 I know what they sound like.

34:32 It's not great.

34:33 We're That's not it.

34:35 I'm saying the quality thing is it's a grind.

34:38 And once once you come out of the other

34:40 side with the thing that's made from the grind,

34:41 people really appreciate it.

34:42 Right now, doing stuff in person works.

34:45 The reaction to to AI in my opinion, that's why I don't want to call it

34:51 a net societal bad is that kids are being like, I should go outside.

34:56 Like, I'm not learning anything.

34:56 I feel like I'm getting dumber.

34:58 I should just go talk to my friends.

35:00 And I think that's great.

35:03 Yeah.

35:03 Like, it has been it's been a suicide bomb in American life.

35:06 And fine by me, the the other side of this is

35:10 like uh people are going to go to the bowling alley again.

35:14 Yeah, man.

35:14 technology, like all the Yeah, man.

35:15 technology, like all the Yeah, man.

35:15 technology, like all the things that I wanted tech to do.

35:16 It's all the reasons uh I have an 11-year-old that I'm like,

35:21 you have a phone for 30 minutes a day to be able to text your friends.

35:26 Uh and he's like and he's not clamoring for it yet.

35:28 And so I'm like, okay, I feel like I'm doing something right because

35:32 uh I see I [snorts] mean I don't know,

35:35 my my wife did a a field trip with them and there she was like, "Yeah,

35:38 there were like a million kids doing TikToks

35:40 on the bus and all this." And I was just like,

35:42 "Oh man, I got to shield this kid as long as I

35:44 can before I I don't know." As a as a parent,

35:48 you just start seeing the the world in good

35:50 ways and bad ways seep into your your kid's life.

35:52 And sometimes that like manifests into all of a sudden this like bright joy

35:57 is all of a sudden like uh worry about how they are being perceived.

36:02 And I'm just like, okay,

36:02 if that if I can keep that extent to it and they're not fully involved, great.

36:06 But I I hope that's I hope that that yeah,

36:08 we do see more and more people uh getting away from the internet.

36:12 But I don't know.

36:14 I mean, whenever we talk about Gen Z, uh at least the ones I see,

36:18 and it's biased because it's where I'm

36:19 at, they seem more involved than ever online,

36:22 and sometimes in a positive way, sometimes in a [ __ ] horrifying way.

36:27 Yeah.

36:27 But brother, like, think about

36:28 Yeah.

36:28 But brother, like, think about

36:28 Yeah.

36:28 But brother, like, think about think about the way we grew up, right?

36:30 Where'd you grow up?

36:31 Not not to

36:32 little all over.

36:32 No, no, a little over.

36:33 little all over.

36:33 No, no, a little over.

36:33 little all over.

36:33 No, no, a little over.

36:33 So, I was like up and down the East Coast.

36:34 It was like New York and then Asheville, North Carolina and then Tampa, Florida.

36:37 I was all over.

36:39 Exactly.

36:40 And like the escape for you was Exactly.

36:41 And like the escape for you was Exactly.

36:41 And like the escape for you was magazines

36:42 and then the escape for you became the internet.

36:44 Right.

36:45 Yeah.

36:45 Absolutely.

36:45 I was like looking for

36:46 Yeah.

36:46 Absolutely.

36:46 I was like looking for Yeah.

36:46 Absolutely.

36:46 I was like looking for any sort of friend.

36:49 Yeah.

36:49 Exactly.

36:49 And I think we are living Yeah.

36:51 Exactly.

36:51 And I think we are living Yeah.

36:51 Exactly.

36:51 And I think we are living through the great inversion of that where

36:53 the internet right now is not going to provide you a friend.

36:56 Like what world in which is the internet going to provide you?

36:59 That's where I found my people, right?

37:01 is I was hiding in the magazine rack at the Virgin Mega Store

37:06 and reading Spin and Rolling Stone and all those things and like trying

37:08 to be like where are my people right and then the internet came along

37:12 and it made a lot easier and that's where I found my people really

37:16 um right now they're telling and they um right now they're telling and they

37:18 um right now they're telling and they told me all all

37:19 that the my people were on the football team and I

37:21 was like I'm not sure they're on the [ __ ] football team

37:23 like I just I just like don't think that that's the case

37:27 and I think all all culture is made of

37:29 and I think all all culture is made of

37:29 and I think all all culture is made of people

37:30 trying to escape the place that they tell you where

37:32 your people are and uh the culture is telling you

37:36 that your that your best friend is a robot right now.

37:39 Like just go on the thing and talk to the computer.

37:41 It's got to be fine.

37:44 And uh all good culture, all good Aza,

37:47 all good uh emotion comes out of the fact that like I don't know, man.

37:50 Like I I just I just don't know if that's my friend.

37:53 [snorts] I think my friend is somewhere else.

37:55 And right now your friend being somewhere else

37:57 means in the real world outside in the woods

38:02 like uh doing donuts in your in your like uh doing donuts in your in your

38:03 like uh doing donuts in your in your Toyota Camry.

38:05 That's what it means.

38:06 And uh you know because the worst people

38:09 in the world have in fact taken over this space.

38:13 They have tried to annex the space where culture

38:15 is made which was you know the popular internet.

38:19 Where culture is going to be made now is outside.

38:22 And I am I am of the opinion that they have left the outside world to us.

38:28 And how [ __ ] cool is that?

38:29 I I I hate to be optimistic about stuff.

38:31 I'm just saying I'm Don't worry, I'm I'm going to pour

38:33 I'm Don't worry, I'm I'm going to pour

38:33 I'm Don't worry, I'm I'm going to pour water on it in a second.

38:34 But yeah, [laughter] I like if you go out there, you're

38:37 I like if you go out there, you're I like if you go out there,

38:38 you're actually less surveiled in person than you are on the internet.

38:40 You're less like

38:42 you're less aggressively marketed to in you're less aggressively marketed to in

38:44 you're less aggressively marketed to in person than you are on the internet.

38:46 And that's where the cool stuff can happen.

38:49 Again, I just like I am optimistic that people

38:52 will find that out in their own way.

38:54 Um, just as I found it out I found out

38:56 my own way at the magazine rack on, you know,

39:00 on angelfire.net 15 years ago or 20 years ago or whatever.

39:03 Uh, you know, your kids going to find that out too, I think.

39:06 Yeah, I want that.

39:07 Yeah, I really want

39:07 Yeah, I want that.

39:07 Yeah, I really want

39:07 Yeah, I want that.

39:07 Yeah, I really want that to be true because I mean

39:08 when you were talking about like their friend is a robot.

39:12 I mean, what was it?

39:13 Parasocial is like the word of the year, right?

39:15 Right.

39:15 So, their friend's a robot and their friend is also uh

39:19 for some people me for some people Nick for some people me for some people Nick

39:21 for some people me for some people Nick Fuentes,

39:22 for other people uh like like it's

39:24 and so that I get scared of like how

39:26 and so that I get scared of like how

39:27 and so that I get scared of like how many of the relationships are that how

39:30 many of the relationships are people like watching

39:31 their favorite Twitch streamer going like here's $5 friend.

39:35 Um and so I'm I'm hoping I'm rooting for your version of the future [snorts]

39:39 because uh because I think it's the only way back to some sort of normaly.

39:44 Yeah.

39:44 Could I give you some data points Yeah.

39:45 Could I give you some data points Yeah.

39:45 Could I give you some data points that might help you feel good about Hell yeah.

39:47 I love data.

39:47 Hell yeah.

39:47 I love data.

39:47 Hell yeah.

39:48 I love data.

39:48 So, uh do you know do you know Dropout?

39:49 So, uh do you know do you know Dropout?

39:49 So, uh do you know do you know Dropout?

39:50 Do you know those folks?

39:51 Yeah.

39:51 Yeah.

39:52 Oh, they're great.

39:52 Yeah.

39:52 Yeah.

39:52 Yeah.

39:52 Oh, they're great.

39:52 Yeah.

39:52 Yeah.

39:52 Yeah.

39:52 Oh, they're great.

39:53 Yeah.

39:53 They're amazing people, right?

39:54 So, they They're amazing people, right?

39:54 So, they They're amazing people, right?

39:55 So, they uh just for a a uh here's a scene setter for everybody.

39:58 Dropout used to be called college humor and it used to be part of a big

40:01 and it used to be part of a big

40:01 and it used to be part of a big corporation called IA.

40:02 I used to work at IC used to work at the Daily Beast

40:06 and they also own like Expedia and a and they also own like Expedia and a

40:07 and they also own like Expedia and a bunch of other stuff that you I don't know.

40:10 It was a hodgepodge of random internet [ __ ] basically.

40:13 And a couple of days before the pandemic,

40:15 they were just like, I'm done with this.

40:16 And they IA gave the company to one of its employees,

40:22 Sam Rich, and they had to start with basically nothing.

40:24 And they were like, well,

40:25 if we're going to do this, we're going to do this in our own way.

40:28 If we're going to go out, we're going to go in a in a in a ball.

40:32 So, they made a streaming service.

40:33 And they just leaned into the things they like to do.

40:36 And that was like they had a bunch of game shows,

40:39 and they had uh they love to play D&D and all these things.

40:42 and their whole streaming network now has

40:46 like millions of viewers from just that.

40:48 They [clears throat] filled Madison Square Garden two nights

40:49 in a row playing D and D and that's communal experience.

40:54 That's the positive side of parasocial relationships.

40:56 These people are good people and people have

41:00 they and those good people with those

41:01 they and those good people with those

41:01 they and those good people with those parasocial

41:02 relationships have been saying go join an improv group.

41:05 Go get together with your D and D people.

41:07 It's not just us, right?

41:09 And same thing for us like we've been trying

41:12 to our we've saved the onion through the analog, right?

41:16 We um when I took over the onion two years ago,

41:21 we were uh a business that was 70 80% like boner pills.

41:24 It was like uh those autogenerated ads underneath Yeah.

41:29 Okay.

41:29 Yeah.

41:30 Yeah.

41:30 Okay.

41:30 Yeah.

41:30 Yeah.

41:30 Okay.

41:30 Yeah.

41:30 So like the business strategy was to So like the business strategy was to

41:32 So like the business strategy was to make slideshows

41:33 so people pressed refresh and the next page button,

41:35 which is not great for the onion.

41:36 It doesn't make any sense.

41:38 We're headlines.

41:38 were headlines and then the silliest 600word story you can read, right?

41:43 So when we took over, we just shut it off.

41:45 We didn't have revenue for a month.

41:47 Um, my favorite ad in that space underneath it,

41:51 it's just to give you an example of the quality of the ad.

41:54 It just said, uh, meet Larry Bird's repulsive wife.

42:00 Oh [laughter] my god.

42:01 Oh [laughter] my god.

42:01 Oh [laughter] my god.

42:01 [snorts]

42:01 [snorts]

42:01 [snorts] like that's how we're making money is

42:04 like that's how we're making money is

42:04 like that's how we're making money is getting people

42:05 to click on that and that page going through sold you

42:08 like sciatica drugs or something and uh I was like

42:14 I just I just feel gross accepting money from this.

42:17 So within three and a half months we So within three and a half months we

42:19 So within three and a half months we turned those off and we're

42:21 like if you like the onion you should get a newspaper in the mail.

42:23 We brought back the newspaper which had been dead for 11 years

42:28 and now we are the 11th biggest

42:30 and now we are the 11th biggest

42:30 and now we are the 11th biggest newspaper in the United States in a year.

42:32 Crazy.

42:32 Crazy.

42:32 Crazy.

42:33 Uh we brought back uh we brought back oh

42:35 Uh we brought back uh we brought back oh

42:35 Uh we brought back uh we brought back oh 55,000 people all throughout the world

42:39 get the onion now uh shipped to their mailbox and that's how we make our money.

42:43 Uh like people like getting it in their hands

42:45 if even if they don't like getting in their hands,

42:46 they like the idea of what we're doing.

42:49 Uh, and they get, you know, or they they get access to like we made

42:53 a movie about Jeffrey Epstein called Jeffrey Epstein, Bad Pedophile.

42:56 Uh, we we put it we put it

42:58 in theaters throughout the country and people went to that.

43:01 Um, wow.

43:02 wow.

43:02 wow.

43:02 We're we're not I'm not being try like a

43:04 We're we're not I'm not being try like a

43:04 We're we're not I'm not being try like a trying

43:06 to be a neo-reactionary to every technological idea right now.

43:08 But I am saying there's this real almost primal

43:12 sense that we have to be around each other.

43:13 We have to do stuff in person again.

43:15 And we're leaning as far into that as we can.

43:18 So it is more than a nostalgia play.

43:20 It is it is some it's a returning to to something else.

43:23 What is that something else you would say?

43:26 H I don't know just being a person.

43:28 I I H I don't know just being a person.

43:28 I I

43:28 H I don't know just being a person.

43:29 I I [snorts] I'm not learning anything on the internet.

43:31 Like everything seems to be it's like an outrage casino and I

43:35 just feel like I get more upset as I'm on there.

43:38 I don't know.

43:38 I I don't fully believe necessarily that every everything that we

43:42 did in person was better that everything artisal is better.

43:46 I am a product of Hershey's bars

43:50 and uh like all mass-produced [ __ ] I love it.

43:53 I truly do.

43:53 And I don't want to sound like one of those like

43:56 magazine like Zen Cranks who was reading all weeklys from like 1990s,

44:01 but I am telling you there's if you if you're a business person,

44:04 there's a market here.

44:06 Uh and it's a

44:07 it's a lot cleaner than like laundering

44:08 it's a lot cleaner than like laundering it's a lot cleaner than like

44:09 laundering your money through Palanteer or whatever.

44:11 like we are it's a it's it's an easier life uh to go to sleep

44:15 to to deal in real actual human beings giving you money for goods and services.

44:21 Are there other possible or other

44:21 Are there other possible or other

44:22 Are there other possible or other expansions on the horizon for the onion?

44:24 Yeah, so like you know infor the back of

44:25 Yeah, so like you know infor the back of

44:25 Yeah, so like you know infor the back of our mind one way

44:26 or another we're going to do something in the next year along those lines.

44:29 If these judges keep stalling this out

44:30 and it's there's no clear path we'll we'll do

44:33 it in our own way but uh we we want to do right by these families.

44:37 So that's a big thing and we're we have a bunch of we have several big projects

44:42 in the next year that are along these lines where

44:45 we think that there is abandoned space or we think

44:49 there is new space where other people are not

44:52 playing and uh we want to give pe give

44:54 the people what they want like it's kind of nice

44:56 being in the fan service industry for your own thing.

45:01 Uh we we have a lot of stuff.

45:02 We just like them to be surprises.

45:04 Like Info Wars came out of nowhere.

45:06 People didn't know a nice thing could happen.

45:07 We like to provide people a nice thing when they don't think it's possible.

45:12 And uh we're just going to keep punching up at power.

45:16 Like we have no um we have nobody telling us no.

45:19 I would be the guy telling the staff to not do something.

45:22 And if they come to me with a big idea,

45:24 I enable them probably to the extent that it's dangerous.

45:27 So, uh, that's the biggest thing that we do is like we will if you're if if you

45:31 think something should be in the newspaper and you're

45:34 not reading it about the people in power right now,

45:36 we're probably it's probably us that's saying it.

45:39 Uh, and we try to find the biggest and

45:41 Uh, and we try to find the biggest and

45:41 Uh, and we try to find the biggest

45:42 and wildest way to say it on a day-to-day basis.

45:44 Well, cuz I was going to ask you with Well, cuz I was going to ask you with

45:45 Well, cuz I was going to ask you with that.

45:45 I mean, what what do you think is the the key to good satire?

45:48 And maybe it's a two-prong question.

45:50 Good satire in general and good satire

45:52 in whatever the hell we're living through right now.

45:56 Yeah, it's uh I think a lot of people assume it's just

45:58 like invert the joke or do like do it at two times speed,

46:01 but we do everything at sort of like 1.25 speed.

46:04 So people think we're preient, but we're just like kind of saying what

46:07 everyone's thinking at the end of the day.

46:11 Um also as uh Padet Powell once wrote this, he wrote

46:14 a book that was entirely questions once and I always think about this.

46:17 It's either um you are either basically doing doing 1.25

46:23 25 speed or you're doing uh the complete inverse of that.

46:27 Uh so like when we wrote Jeffrey Epstein Bad Pedophile,

46:30 we knew that we wanted two things to happen.

46:32 We wanted it to be of the moment but we wanted it

46:34 to kind of last forever and there's a really hard way to do that.

46:37 So that's why in Jeffrey Epstein Bad Pedophile,

46:39 Jeffrey Epste is on the 1997 Chicago Bulls uh with Donald Trump.

46:45 uh it just became a total like it went after

46:49 the uh schllockumentary industry instead of going after Jeffrey Epstein himself.

46:52 Hard satire is just hard one I would say and we

46:57 uh we do it the old fashioned way.

46:58 We uh we do it the old fashioned way.

46:58 We uh we do it the old fashioned way.

46:59 We trying to every single day uh when we go when they go

47:03 in there um the the fights that I have that they have with each other

47:07 about if things are too on the nose uh or if this verb is

47:12 correct uh it's more art than science and I just let them duke it out.

47:15 That's the answer.

47:16 Yeah, that's I I think Yeah.

47:17 As as a leader that's I I think Yeah.

47:18 As as a leader

47:18 that's I I think Yeah.

47:18 As as a leader sometimes that's the best bet, right?

47:20 Enable and get out of the way.

47:22 Exactly right.

47:22 Yeah.

47:22 And then I'm just I Exactly right.

47:23 Yeah.

47:23 And then I'm just I

47:23 Exactly right.

47:23 Yeah.

47:23 And then I'm just I just see what comes out

47:24 of it and uh I'm a gas at the sentences each time.

47:29 I mean, so, okay, so I don't know how how familiar are you

47:32 right now with the uh some people go by this label, others don't.

47:36 The the MAGA civil war that we're seeing play out.

47:38 How how familiar are you?

47:40 Uh, unfortunately, extremely.

47:42 Yes.

47:42 Uh, unfortunately, extremely.

47:42 Yes.

47:42 Uh, unfortunately, extremely.

47:42 Yes.

47:43 Okay, good.

47:43 I was like, I just need to Okay, good.

47:44 I was like, I just need to Okay, good.

47:44 I was like, I just need to make sure you're extremely online.

47:46 Uh, who do you think who do you think is

47:48 Uh, who do you think who do you think is

47:48 Uh, who do you think who do you think is uh

47:50 winning out and if it's sides or anything from what we're seeing?

47:52 Because I I have I think an unpopular opinion.

47:56 And I think with certain people they're like, "Oh, yeah,

47:57 that's obvious." But some people are uh think that there's push back.

48:01 So before sharing mine, I want to know your thoughts.

48:03 I'm kind of interested in yours.

48:04 I think

48:04 I'm kind of interested in yours.

48:04 I think

48:04 I'm kind of interested in yours.

48:05 I think I think there's several things going on right now.

48:09 One, uh you're starting to see some people

48:11 uh you're starting to see some people

48:11 uh you're starting to see some people realize

48:12 that this president is in fact a lame duck and that there's going to be have

48:16 have to be something after this on the right.

48:18 And the earliest people to do that are

48:19 And the earliest people to do that are

48:19 And the earliest people to do that are usually the crankiest people, right?

48:21 So that's how you see Marjorie Taylor Green going.

48:24 Like that's why I'm very uneasy when Democrats are complimenting her about

48:28 stuff is because they're not she's not attacking him from the left.

48:32 He's finding she's finding a she's like

48:36 galactically far to the right to the extent

48:38 that you can't even really see where she's

48:39 coming from, but you're going to see it.

48:41 It's basically Nazism.

48:43 It's not good.

48:44 the um it's criticizing Israel from uh oldfashioned anti-Semitic tropes

48:49 that people like there's criticizing Israel and that is probably right

48:54 and then there's criticizing Israel from like the pro protocols the elders

48:58 of Zion stuff and that's really where she's coming from here.

49:01 Those are the people, the Nick Fentes,

49:03 Tucker Carlson types that are that see an avenue and see a line to power.

49:09 Uh, and they are they are taking the first

49:12 available offramp to try to get that power.

49:14 Uh, and that first available offramp is almost always bigotry and hate.

49:18 They are masking it pretty well right now.

49:19 It's not going to be pretty if those people win out.

49:21 And I think that they honestly they they understand how the internet works.

49:25 They understand the information environment better than most people.

49:29 I'm very afraid that they're going to win [laughter] and I think that I

49:33 think they're I think they're in the driver's seat to be honest with you.

49:37 Agreed.

49:37 Absolutely.

49:37 So, yeah, I I've had Agreed.

49:38 Absolutely.

49:38 So, yeah, I I've had Agreed.

49:38 Absolutely.

49:39 So, yeah, I I've had this conversation

49:39 and a lot of people have disagreed with me.

49:41 I think it's just not publicly or maybe understood in the mainstream,

49:47 but if it's not uh a Nick Fuentes, Marjgery Taylor Green, I think,

49:51 has has alienated people to a point where there's still

49:53 enough people that are learning about this new version of Nick

49:58 Fuentes um that uh like the the clip machine behind

50:01 him uh whitewashes a lot of the the really gnarly stuff.

50:04 And it's like, I care about Americans and I disagree

50:09 with uh Israel uh killing people in Gaza and everyone's like,

50:13 "Yeah, that makes sense." [laughter] Of course.

50:14 Of course.

50:14 Of course.

50:14 Yes.

50:15 Yes.

50:15 Yes.

50:15 Um and then and then you see a random Um and then and then you see a random

50:16 Um and then and then you see a random clip and they're like,

50:17 "When when was that?" Right?

50:18 So, I've I've been having a lot of really interesting conversations,

50:21 not just people online, but people in real life of like, "Hey,

50:25 are you familiar?" And then just letting like hearing them out.

50:28 Um but I think that's there.

50:29 And if it's not if it's not yet uh a Fuentes,

50:33 then I think it has to be uh a Carlson who I

50:36 I kind of saw his interview with Fuentes as him bending the knee,

50:40 but I think could also be seen as him trying to have a a non-Trump coalition.

50:47 trying to have a a non-Trump coalition.

50:47 trying to have a a non-Trump coalition.

50:48 Um where it's like it I mean we kind of saw that with Trump.

50:51 A lot of people going like, I don't like what that is,

50:54 but I'm not going to vote for the other, right?

50:55 Right.

50:55 So it felt it feels like a possibly more

50:57 extreme version of what we've already seen with Trump.

51:00 Absolutely right.

51:01 I think he's he is Absolutely right.

51:01 I think he's he is Absolutely right.

51:02 I think he's he is trying to define that Overton window.

51:04 Tucker is Tucker is uh RFK will if he hasn't already

51:08 and I think JD Vance is going to be like

51:09 and I think JD Vance is going to be like

51:09 and I think JD Vance is going to be like the Gavin

51:10 Newsome type figure that tries to like bring it all together.

51:12 Um I think he falls though, right?

51:14 JD like I think he falls though, right?

51:15 JD like I think he falls though, right?

51:15 JD like JD Vance it feels like he doesn't actually stand for anything

51:17 except like I'll fight you based off of whoever is giving me money.

51:22 That's exactly right.

51:22 I don't think he That's exactly right.

51:23 I don't think he That's exactly right.

51:24 I don't think he doesn't have the juice.

51:25 I don't think he I don't think he knows that he doesn't have the juice,

51:28 but I think he's going to try to be

51:30 the the That's how far the overturning window shifted though, right?

51:33 Is that that guy is going to appear kind of that guy is going to appear kind of

51:35 that guy is going to appear kind of moderate uh walking into this thing.

51:40 Famed moderate JD Vance.

51:41 Famed moderate JD Vance.

51:42 Famed moderate JD Vance.

51:42 Yeah.

51:42 Like if I had to put money on, I Yeah.

51:43 Like if I had to put money on, I Yeah.

51:43 Like if I had to put money on, I think it would probably

51:44 be somebody like RFK going in there uh and trying to spoil the difference.

51:48 But the honest to god answer is that tent is going to include Nick

51:51 that tent is going to include Nick that tent is going to include Nick Fuentes.

51:52 Um he's not going to be the guy It can't.

51:54 It can't not.

51:55 It can't not.

51:56 It can't not.

51:56 It can't not.

51:57 Uh, you know, I I firmly believe that um

52:00 Uh, you know, I I firmly believe that um

52:00 Uh, you know, I I firmly believe that um

52:01 those estimates that a third of the young

52:03 men in the party are driven by the Andrew Tate pro much more than that.

52:08 Probably driven by the Andrew Tate Nick Fentes

52:10 uh reactionary effectively neo-Nazi set of of of beliefs.

52:17 And you they're not going to be able to avoid them.

52:19 They're going to be too loud.

52:21 And I I'm hoping that's going to be offputting to a lot of people,

52:24 but I'm I'm not sure.

52:26 Like these again, when you when you own the pipes,

52:28 which they do, and they're friends, the Tuckers of the world,

52:31 the Fentes of the world, they're friends of the people who do nothing

52:35 but manipulate the internet and play by no rules.

52:38 Those people have been able to establish a lot of things

52:40 that aren't true as true over the last few years.

52:43 Um, they've been able to install JD Vance as vice president.

52:47 Uh, and RFK is the AHS desk secretary.

52:52 They have incredible power and I I just don't write them off.

52:56 That's all I got to say.

52:58 Um, no.

53:00 Yeah.

53:00 Go ahead.

53:00 Yeah.

53:00 Go ahead.

53:00 Yeah.

53:00 Go ahead.

53:01 No, I I agree.

53:01 I was like uh I was like No, I I agree.

53:02 I was like uh I was like No, I I agree.

53:03 I was like uh I was like I mean honestly I could talk about that for an hour.

53:05 Do So as far as who has the juice, bring it to the other side.

53:10 Does anyone on the left right now have the juice?

53:14 U that could al that that al

53:15 that also can legally win [laughter] a presidential election, right?

53:20 right?

53:20 right?

53:21 Uh my girlfriend I'm a cape for my Uh my girlfriend I'm a cape for my

53:22 Uh my girlfriend I'm a cape for my girlfriend.

53:23 My my girlfriend cannot run a run or win

53:26 a presidential election because she's not old enough,

53:28 but it's a horrifying sentence.

53:30 Uh but she uh her name's Cat Abigazali.

53:32 Everyone should vote for her.

53:33 She's wonderful and great.

53:35 Um and uh but there you guys there's a lot of juice in the left.

53:38 Unfortunately, like they're just like not eligible to be president.

53:41 Zoron's incredible.

53:42 He's one of the best uh campaigners I've ever seen in my life in any capacity.

53:46 Um I met him and we talked onion headlines for 10 for 10 minutes straight.

53:49 It was great.

53:51 We recited them from memory.

53:54 Uh good human.

53:54 Um but there's there's a Uh good human.

53:55 Um but there's there's a Uh good human.

53:56 Um but there's there's a lot of juice.

53:56 I don't know.

53:57 I don't know how it's going to shake out though.

53:59 Um I know a lot of trans people who just

54:01 straight up will not vote for Gavin Newsome and will just will not happen.

54:06 Uh, and there are just will not happen.

54:07 Uh, and there are just will not happen.

54:08 Uh, and there are there are other parts of the party

54:11 that I think they don't know if they're ready yet.

54:15 And they probably are,

54:16 but they uh have uh the millennial brain disease of themselves

54:20 telling themselves that it can't possibly be me that's in charge now.

54:24 And uh I have that too.

54:25 But you know, sometimes you just you got to walk into the fire.

54:29 So, I think there's a couple people along those lines uh that Yeah, I Yeah, I

54:33 Yeah, I maybe talk themselves into it.

54:34 maybe talk themselves into it.

54:34 maybe talk themselves into it.

54:35 Yeah, I I go back and forth, right?

54:36 So, Yeah, I I go back and forth, right?

54:36 So, Yeah, I I go back and forth, right?

54:37 So, like uh if you look at the god

54:38 aful markets or you just kind of talk to people,

54:41 it feels like Newsome has juice now.

54:43 Can you hold that till a next presidential election?

54:47 Uh what is the the the weird the only reason I've been of a mindset

54:52 of maybe he can hold it and maybe he could split the difference of people

54:56 that are vehemently against him is there because of Trump and it's it's kind

55:01 of that you always see that that swing in the other direction because of Trump.

55:05 It's like it feels like people have w have very

55:08 much welcomed like can we just have a [ __ ] bully?

55:10 Can we just I'm just tired of getting hit in the back of the head.

55:14 Can we have a bully?

55:16 I will and the question becomes what percentage of the electorate

55:19 and what percentage of the base uh will go

55:22 and I'll turn a blind eye to other issues because there

55:25 is a greater good or a greater thing to go after.

55:28 I I don't I don't know.

55:29 I mean I've talked to a few people I found uh and we haven't had certain

55:34 people on because I'm trying to spread it out but it's like I had Wes Moore on.

55:38 I was very disappointed that I actually believe him when he says

55:41 that he wouldn't run uh cuz I'm like you're a very impressive man.

55:44 He's absolutely running for president, brother.

55:47 He he tricked me then.

55:47 He's a very good He he tricked me then.

55:48 He's a very good He he tricked me then.

55:49 He's a very good liar then.

55:50 Maybe that's also good for a politician.

55:52 But I was like I haven't believed like when when uh

55:55 I haven't believed like when when uh I haven't believed like when when uh

55:56 Pritsker dodged the question, I'm like, okay, no.

55:58 No one.

55:58 You're tricking no one.

56:00 But with Wes Moore, I was like when if you li if you run, I would I

56:03 when if you li if you run, I would I when if you li if you run,

56:04 I would I would have a day where I would be like that liar.

56:06 [laughter] That liar.

56:08 That liar.

56:08 That liar.

56:08 Yeah.

56:09 I I'm okay with people lying about Yeah.

56:10 I I'm okay with people lying about Yeah.

56:10 I I'm okay with people lying about that.

56:11 I I will say like there what I what I do I know there's no question there.

56:14 I just want to jump in because it's important.

56:15 Yeah.

56:16 No, do it.

56:16 Yeah.

56:16 No, do it.

56:16 Yeah.

56:17 No, do it.

56:17 I think people in the months after Trump

56:19 I think people in the months after Trump I think people in the months after

56:21 Trump got elected misunderstood the concept of strength.

56:26 And And And uh they were like we're not strong.

56:28 Uh what does it mean to be strong?

56:29 And they came to the idea that strength means

56:33 I have to be able to bully some people.

56:35 I had to be able to bully some people to the left and to the right.

56:38 Right?

56:38 I have to be able to bully the Nazis on the right,

56:39 but I also have to be able to bully trans people because they're weird.

56:42 And that's not what strength is.

56:44 Strength is believing in something and actually believing it, right?

56:47 Going out there and saying what you actually think and not

56:51 capitulating based on what the other bullies are saying, right?

56:54 And I think that's how most people will come to their conclusion in 2028 is is

56:59 that person who they say they are and are

57:02 they really willing to stand up for people?

57:04 I I am uh I've been saying this.

57:07 I'm not a Democrat because like the colors are cool

57:09 and like I want people I want my side to win.

57:12 Yeah.

57:12 Yeah.

57:12 Yeah.

57:12 I'm a Democrat.

57:13 It's closest thing to I'm a Democrat.

57:13 It's closest thing to I'm a Democrat.

57:14 It's closest thing to human rights that I can get.

57:15 Like and knowing that my my civil liberties will be protected

57:19 on this side because there's an active protective effort to do that.

57:25 And the closest person to talk like that and really mean

57:28 it and really say it is who I'm going to vote for.

57:32 And when you start throwing people off the

57:34 when you start throwing people off the

57:34 when you start throwing people off the ship,

57:35 when you start throwing people off the bus

57:37 because you you're worried they might affect your coalition,

57:39 what it looks like and sounds like to other people,

57:42 and when you start trying to seek out people who look like,

57:45 you know, they spent the whole day duck hunting or whatever, fam.

57:50 No, not for me.

57:51 I am I just want you to try to protect the the least among

57:57 us because I'm we're all going to be the least among us at some point.

58:00 If we live to be 90, God bless us, but we're going to need help.

58:04 And uh I am aware that that's everyone's reality.

58:07 You know, my girlfriend Cat always says

58:09 that if you're not disabled now, you will be.

58:11 Like um if you make it your whole life um if you make it your whole life

58:13 um if you make it your whole life without being disabled in some capacity,

58:15 you're you didn't live a long enough life probably.

58:18 And [snorts] um I I want everybody to know that I uh

58:22 uh not to go back to the Buzzfeed and up upwardly thing,

58:25 but there is one great headline from that era in the Huffington

58:29 Post and it said uh it was an op-ed and it said,

58:32 "I don't know how to convince you to care about

58:35 other people." And I think about it all the time.

58:38 And the politician that can convince people to care

58:42 about other people is who I'm going to vote for.

58:44 like I don't I I'm all right and I'm gonna make it,

58:46 but there's a whole world out there that is being

58:49 targeted and I I want them to care about them.

58:51 I mean, the truth is the the politician I mean, the truth is the the politician

58:52 I mean, the truth is the the politician that's most capable

58:53 of doing that right now and not on purpose is Donald Trump.

58:57 Uh people I mean, we've gone back to this and I won't cheer it,

58:59 but people have to experience pain.

59:00 The only way that I've made changes in my life

59:02 and it's anecdotal is experiencing pain and fear

59:06 at a level where I was like this is

59:09 something that is untenable for the long term, right?

59:12 And so I think uh yeah,

59:15 Donald Trump depending on how especially depending on how the next

59:17 two and a half years go is is largely setting that up.

59:21 I I I think that there are limits to that because we saw that I'm

59:24 not Donald Trump is not a good enough uh message to win in 2024.

59:29 Uh but yeah, I uh [sighs and gasps] Uh but yeah, I uh [sighs and gasps]

59:32 Uh but yeah, I uh [sighs and gasps] I I will I will have I will have hope.

59:35 But it it's like how do we educate people to to go okay masculinity strength is

59:41 not cruelty and the stuff that you're like it's not nice to see um but it's uh

59:47 uh you know that there is strength and and masculinity to look to a trans person

59:52 and go my initial reaction be should be

59:54 to protect them not protect from because they're other.

59:59 Uh, and that's I I mean the easiest way is for a person

1:00:02 to meet a trans person in real life and not just base

1:00:04 it off of some weird [ __ ] uh random often out of touch

1:00:09 or out of context clip from like libs of Tik Tok or something,

1:00:11 but that's how a lot of people are getting it.

1:00:14 Yeah.

1:00:14 I uh I'm just going to quote Yeah.

1:00:16 I uh I'm just going to quote Yeah.

1:00:16 I uh I'm just going to quote another thing uh

1:00:18 from the internet from I believe it's from Brandy Jensen.

1:00:20 Um, she said, um, I find myself having to side

1:00:25 with people I find annoying over people I know are dangerous.

1:00:30 And that's our coalition, unfortunately.

1:00:31 And that's our coalition, unfortunately.

1:00:31 And that's our coalition, unfortunately.

1:00:32 That's beautiful.

1:00:33 Oh my god.

1:00:33 I've never That's beautiful.

1:00:34 Oh my god.

1:00:34 I've never That's beautiful.

1:00:34 Oh my god.

1:00:35 I've never connected to a quote so much.

1:00:36 Yeah.

1:00:37 And that's how I feel right now.

1:00:37 Yeah.

1:00:37 And that's how I feel right now.

1:00:37 Yeah.

1:00:37 And that's how I feel right now.

1:00:38 And I am People are being confronted with that

1:00:40 People are being confronted with that

1:00:40 People are being confronted with that reality.

1:00:41 I live in Chicago and Chicago is uh [snorts]

1:00:44 under attack and there's no other way to put it.

1:00:47 Um, I walk around with a whistle all the time and all of my friends

1:00:50 do and I've never seen solidarity amongst a city like this in my life.

1:00:54 And it's because even if you were a Republican at the start

1:00:56 of this, we talked to Republic when I'm out with Cat,

1:00:59 we talk to Republicans all the time who are confronted with I didn't know they

1:01:03 are confronted with I didn't know they

1:01:03 are confronted with I didn't know they literally meant the tamalei lady.

1:01:05 Like they who are just seeing it now.

1:01:08 It's clicking.

1:01:10 And uh that's going to happen And uh that's going to happen

1:01:12 And uh that's going to happen everywhere.

1:01:14 Um people are are losing people they know uh into into the darkness.

1:01:20 Um they are seeing people getting kidnapped

1:01:23 and disappeared and you don't hear from them again.

1:01:25 And that is a level of that that's the ending of all this stuff

1:01:30 and we're going to uh we're going to live through a couple more years of it.

1:01:34 It's why you got he is deeply unpopular.

1:01:35 You would not know this from the news.

1:01:37 I know I complained about it a lot at the start of this podcast,

1:01:40 but this guy is not popular and it's because it's affecting people who

1:01:44 got who got laid off from their government job or their family member did.

1:01:48 Uh the person that they know from down

1:01:52 the street got kidnapped in front of their eyes.

1:01:54 Their Halloween parade in Chicago got teargassed.

1:01:59 This is not hypothetical anymore.

1:02:00 This is the this is what fascism looks like and feels like.

1:02:04 And I think at the end of the day, if there are real elections uh in 2028,

1:02:11 whoever is on the opposite side of that will win.

1:02:13 There are going to be people on the right

1:02:14 who distanced themselves from some of that stuff,

1:02:16 but they were there all along and they were rooting for it at the start.

1:02:21 And um we're living through the hard part now, man.

1:02:23 And it's really, really difficult.

1:02:25 But I am I'm seeing people come around.

1:02:27 I I Why am I being so optimistic?

1:02:28 What is wrong with me?

1:02:30 Like I got to stop doing this.

1:02:30 It's really rough.

1:02:32 No, I need it.

1:02:32 I need it.

1:02:33 Well, because No, I need it.

1:02:33 I need it.

1:02:33 Well, because No, I need it.

1:02:34 I need it.

1:02:34 Well, because I I do I was like, I do three things, right?

1:02:37 So, this is to to to learn and and meet people.

1:02:40 I I have my main show and then I have my crashing out vent like,

1:02:43 "Oh my god, everything's horrible." So,

1:02:45 it's good to have uh a small uh injection of like, "Hey,

1:02:51 [laughter] it might not all be bad." like we're

1:02:53 we're treading water and trying to gain some steam

1:02:56 to get somewhere and not just to to go off

1:02:59 the the edge of a waterfall uh a little later.

1:03:03 Yeah, it's it's a great time to Yeah, it's it's a great time to

1:03:04 Yeah, it's it's a great time to accidentally learn that you're

1:03:06 a leader uh and that you actually believe in stuff.

1:03:10 It's much better believing in stuff, right?

1:03:12 When you know that it's dangerous to do so.

1:03:15 It it it's almost like liberating to feel this way.

1:03:18 And I I do welcome anybody who else who wants to uh

1:03:22 say out loud what they're actually feeling about this and say

1:03:25 it's a sad and difficult time and admit it to yourself

1:03:28 and uh collect the people around you who feel the same way.

1:03:31 It's uh I this is this is the point of being

1:03:35 I this is this is the point of being

1:03:35 I this is this is the point of being alive is feeling the the deep dark stuff

1:03:38 and trying to verbalize it and trying to bring

1:03:39 it together and bring people around to your cause.

1:03:41 And I am.

1:03:42 Yeah.

1:03:42 Yeah.

1:03:43 Yeah.

1:03:43 Uh uh I don't know.

1:03:44 There is there is Uh uh I don't know.

1:03:45 There is there is Uh uh I don't know.

1:03:46 There is there is hope and unity

1:03:47 in this thing in this really really dark moment.

1:03:48 Like I said, I never thought I'd be walking around with a whistle

1:03:52 with eyes wide open as I just walk down the street uh in my neighborhood.

1:03:57 But that's where we are.

1:03:59 And it crystallizes a lot of things in your life.

1:04:01 And it makes makes everything very clear.

1:04:03 And once that happens to you in your neighborhood or I

1:04:06 hope you start looking around like people are disengaged from the news.

1:04:10 People are upset that they're not getting

1:04:11 the news from what they what they want,

1:04:13 but they're not disengaged from what's going on.

1:04:15 They've moved from like, I want to watch my neighbors get teargassed over

1:04:19 and over again on TikTok all day to be like,

1:04:22 actually civic action, like how do I how do I take this anger?

1:04:26 How do I get outside?

1:04:29 And it's the first time in my lifetime as an American I've seen

1:04:32 people go from being like disaffected angry to, okay, how do we rebuild?

1:04:38 Um, and it's I don't know.

1:04:40 I again hate to be hopeful, but there that's that's the feeling that I

1:04:43 feel in the middle of Chicago right now.

1:04:45 Yeah, it's times like these that that Yeah, it's times like these that that

1:04:47 Yeah, it's times like these that that really show

1:04:48 you who you and the people around you are.

1:04:50 But I think on that note, Ben, thank you so much for the time.

1:04:53 I really appreciate this conversation.

1:04:54 I'm going to be getting a physical subscription to The Onion.

1:04:57 Oh, yeah.

1:04:57 Oh, yeah.

1:04:58 Oh, yeah.

1:04:58 Uh, [laughter] Uh, [laughter]

1:04:59 Uh, [laughter] and uh and uh yeah, in in the next year,

1:05:02 we definitely got to have you back on.

1:05:04 No, absolutely.

1:05:04 It was really nice to No, absolutely.

1:05:05 It was really nice to No, absolutely.

1:05:05 It was really nice to talk to uh to a guy

1:05:07 with his brain firmly in the middle of his head.

1:05:09 Thank you mostly.

1:05:11 [laughter] And that, dear listener, is the end of

1:05:13 And that, dear listener, is the end of

1:05:13 And that, dear listener, is the end of today's podcast.

1:05:14 And if you're listening to me here at the end

1:05:16 and you're somehow not subscribed, what are you doing?

1:05:18 Definitely subscribe.

1:05:18 I've got weekly conversations that come out usually Tuesday or Thursday.

1:05:21 If you like this one, I definitely recommend you check out one of our last two.

1:05:24 No matter what, let me say thank you for watching.

1:05:25 I love your faces and I'll see you right back here next